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Model: | Prime |
Category: | Turntables |
Suggested Retail Price: | $3,800.00 |
Description: | All the right pieces |
Manufacturer URL: | VPI Industries |
Review by bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net on November 20, 2015 at 12:56:50 IP Address: 173.221.101.242 | Add Your Review for the Prime |
This is the first product that is fully the work of Matt Weisfeld, the son of founder Harry Weisfeld. VPI is located in New Jersey and was founded in 1978. From the beginning the company has been known as innovative, not afraid to try new things, and at the same time provide solid products that last and sound good. Owners have also been afforded the option to upgrade as new innovations resulted in better sound. The designs are simple and for those who value such things, they are elegant and tend to build upon the strengths of other models in the lineup. The Prime is a good example of how progress occurs at VPI. The Prime has all of the elements one would expect of a high end turntable, except the price. The plinth design comes from the TNT (also found in the Scout), the platter and bearing come from the Classic, the separate stand alone 300 rpm motor design also derives from the TNT. The plinth is supported with a four point plastic/cone/rubber isolation system similar to the Classic and others (and to Stillpoints for that matter). Perhaps the most innovative component on the Prime is the 3D tonearm. Harry W. has been working with this basic unipivot design for years. In this iteration the arm is a one piece, carbon epoxy composite instead of metal. You can buy one of these 3D tonearms for about $2,000.00, further underscoring the value that this package represents. I doubt there is a better tonearm on the market at any price. The whole package put together is solid, the machined aluminum platter alone weighs almost 40 pounds. I measured the speed using a Roadrunner tachometer and found it to be 33.595-33.605, and after about 20 minutes of motor warm-up, the speed stability is rock steady. The drive motor position relative to the separate plinth does affect platter speed slightly, as it does on all belt drive turntables using detached motors.
Setup is very straight forward and VPI has an excellent video that takes the new owner through the steps in about 15 minutes. Plan on 1-2 hours for your first attempt, though. Setting up the tonearm was not particularly easy for me for a number of reasons. For one thing I am very fussy, for another my 67 year old self is fitted with shakey hands, and finally, the setup requires patience and perseverance to achieve the kind of results that this arm is capable of delivering. Two aftermarket products are strongly recommended to aid setup. The Soundsmith Counter Intuitive makes setting VTF and azimuth much easier, it facilitates making minor changes, and achieves repeatable settings. An arc type protractor, which provides two null point, of your choice provides a more accurate and better sounding cartridge. There are several choices including free ones you can find if you look. I own two: The Best Protractor by MintLP and the Accu-Trak. One of the little frustrations that I had with set up is that the nominal spec for tonearm pivot point to spindle on the Prime is 258 mm, but mine for some reason was actually 261.5 mm. This is a minor difficulty, but Matt Weisfeld actually offered to replace my turntable over it. I declined the offer, but share the story as this is illustrative of the extraordinary service that VPI is justly famous for. In any event, not everyone is going to be as anal as I am about accurate tracking, but everyone should take the single point paper protractor that is supplied with their new Prime and put it out with the trash.
So how does the Prime sound? For this section I mounted an Ortofon Cadenza Black cartridge. My phono stage is a Conrad-Johnson TEA2MAX. This combination is neutral, precise, with no obvious short comings. The Prime sounds exactly like you would expect a very high end, world class turntable to sound. The bass is profoundly deep and well defined. Transient response is very fast and well defined. On well recorded piano, the vibration of the sounding board is tangible, not just the note, but the feel of the instrument, as though you could reach out and touch it is enough to curl your toes. The midrange is magic, breath tones are so close and clear you might sniff to make sure the singer brushed her teeth. Intimate, fast, and clear. Highs have a shimmer to them that is absolutely stunning. I have a bell tree identical to the one used by the late, great Connie Kay of Modern Jazz Quartet fame. These bells have very complex, high frequency overtones. Think of a set of a dozen or more triangles of different sizes set up adjacent to each other so that the percussionist could sweep across the group with her striker to create a mass of high pitched sound. Anyway, the turntable that can create a credible facsimile of these bell trees is a rare and amazing thing. I present to you the Prime: One of the rare few that can do this well. It might not be the best turntable on the market, but with careful set up it it takes a lot to beat it.
Product Weakness: | The arm is difficult to adjust, solve this with a Soundsmith CI<br>Runs a wee bit fast, not a real problem for most listeners |
Product Strengths: | Solid construction should result in long term reliability<br>Great sound |
Amplifier: | Conrad-Johnson ARTsa |
Preamplifier (or None if Integrated): | Conrad-Johnson ET5 |
Sources (CDP/Turntable): | VPI Prime; Technics SL1200 KAB |
Speakers: | Sony SS-AR2 |
Cables/Interconnects: | Blue Jeans |
Music Used (Genre/Selections): | Jazz, Classical |
Room Size (LxWxH): | 30 x 16 x 12 |
Room Comments/Treatments: | none |
Time Period/Length of Audition: | 200 hours plus |
Other (Power Conditioner etc.): | Not used for this reveiw |
Type of Audition/Review: | Product Owner |
Before everyone removes their platter and runs to their scales, VPI advertises the platter to be 20 pounds, not 40. Quite massive enough.IMO the best thing about VPI products, besides the unequaled customer service, is that they are over-engineered and modular. I have been buying VPI for a long time. I have an HW-1! You can change motors, platters, bearings, flywheels, belts, lubricants, speed controllers, suspensions and weights and clamps to your heart's content to make them perform better and better.
Edits: 11/21/15 11/23/15
Thanks Mel! I must have done something wrong converting from metric to English units or some similar brain fart.
Bill
> One of the little frustrations that I had with set up is that the nominal spec for tonearm pivot point to spindle on the Prime is 258 mm, but mine
> for some reason was actually 261.5 mm. This is a minor difficulty, but Matt Weisfeld actually offered to replace my turntable over it.
Actually, this is a major problem. You will find that many, if not most cartridges will not be able to achieve proper alignment with pivot-to-spindle mounting distance out-of-spec by 3.5-mm. Headshell slots are normally not long enough to compensate for this much error. I would recommend allowing Mat Weisfeld to replace your turntable if the pivot-to-spindle distance cannot be corrected.
Good luck,
John Elison
Hi John,
While I agree with you that 3.5 mm is too far out to be acceptable, my solution to the problem does not include throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The solution is to use a protractor set up for the actual distance between the arm pivot and the spindle. Nominal values are frequently not exact anyway. And of course using an arc and setting at an outer and inner point along the arc is quite important. I know I"m preaching to the choir, but state this for the benefit of other participants.
You may recollect that when we first corresponded it was because I was having trouble dialing my Prime in. The reason I knew it wasn't doing it's best is because my KAB SL1200 sits right beside it and the comparison told me something wasn't right. The Prime does sound better than the Technics, but even now the difference is not great and at the beginning it was the other way around. Take care.
Bill
I will just chime in on the Prime issue. My Prime had a SP distance of 256 and change. Off spec. I did as Harry recommended and loosened the screws in the arm base. I am now at 557.955 .05 off. I used electronic calipers which ran about $70 bucks off amazon (cheaper pairs are available). Note if you adjust PS put a note card between the screw driver and VTA/tower to avoid marking up the tower/base up.
I really don't know if I really hear a difference. Table sounds amazing as it always has. It is sounding very good today so maybe.
I also used the Conrad Hoffman software to compare the alignment of VPI Jig. It's extremely close. Like not sure there is any difference using 40x loupe close. I will take another look at it later when I am more focused, but certain there is not much difference. I would love to think I will get a nice bump in performance but when it's hard to see the difference with a 40x loupe I am not sure I will get a bump at all.
That being said I was dead on with the VPI Jig when I first set it. All of these things have taught me a few lessons.
First: these specs are very hard to hit on the head. I am betting many many turntables of various brands are slightly off spec. Especially considering these things are shipped. Finally being slightly off (2mm) does not kill a 4k record player. They still sound great.
Second: I would say the mint is worth the investment. If you supposable care to the last MM if something is off spec using a print out protractor is not cutting it. First how good is the printer you are using. And if the paper or transparency has any play bumps from not being completely flat or has any movement you might as well quite because the distances we are talk about are so small to begin with if you are not dead accurate you are wasting your time.
I do believe something machined to exact spec probably sounds better. I think the question is how much better and are you willing to spent the time, effort and money to do it. Can anyone say diminishing returns.
In one of the reviews of the Prime it is compared to a Basis 2500 table. The Basis cost 17K.
"Compared to the Prime, the Basis 2500 Signature turntable offers a warmer overall tonal balance with a bit more low level information. Harmonic trails last just a little longer. Singers have a bit more depth and warmth. These are often the kinds of differences we hear with different interconnects or cartridges, but using the same interconnects and cartridge on both turntables suggests that the Basis is more resolving, as it should be considering the difference in cost."
This about says it all for me. At my average joe wages I can swing a Prime but will most likely never be able to afford the Basis but lets be real its better but not enough for someone of my means to be swayed enough to 4x times more.
After actually checking this SP issue out I have to agree more with HW. It does not make a earth shattering difference if your SP is off a little. I bet you a million bucks you have enjoyed tables that were way off spec. In addition the Prime can be adjusted. If you need this level of accuracy in every measurement of a turntable get your check book out or get a car loan. In the end it will be better but really how much better? Is it worth the cost? In the end only you can answer that question. I have my answer.
If your arm base is anything like my older one, it is possible by rotating the pivot point about the mounting post (which has the dial for height on top) to move the pivot point towards or away from the record center. A 3 mm adjustment should be easily attained. This is all described in the VPI JMW-3D Printed Tonearm Manual on its page 5. Shown also is the adjustment jig that came with my arm to assure an exact position. Did you get one?
Alternatively you can toss your "arc" protractor and use any number of others that are equally as reliable and do not rely on a precise pivot to center measurement.
I guess I don't understand your reaction. You just spent nearly four thousand dollars on a defective turntable and the manufacturer told you to send it back so he could replace it with a good one. If that constitutes throwing the baby out with the bathwater, then I suggest you keep it and enjoy your defective turntable.To each his own!
Good luck,
John Elison
Edits: 11/23/15
John, what the hell is wrong with you. The arm base is mounted to a wood chassis using long wood screws, most likely what has happened is in shipping the base got hit by the solid foam we use to protect the table, and slightly rotated. I checked 7 Primes at the factory and every one was 258 or 259. but what do you care, just throw out the baby with the bath water, say VPI sucks and get back to measuring arc protractors!!!!!!!!
Let's be realistic here, UPS drops everything roughly 6 times before you get it, things happen, grow up.
HW
No need to fly off the handle again Harry. If you'd read one of John's responses to your recent posts you would most certainly see he doesn't think "VPI sucks".
A quote from John's response...
"I think your turntables represent an excellent value in today's marketplace, especially the new Prime. Two of my friends just bought the Prime and it sounds very good to me."
While I see both points I think the following picture describes the situation perfectly...
---
Regardless of what table you buy or own as long as you're spinning vinyl you're doing the right thing!
You too John..and everyone else. I am not math centric at all. I set up my VPI 3D with a Mint protractor very carefully...the included single point protractor from VPI confirms the exact same location. To ME...adjustment of azimuth properly made a very big difference.
On another point.... has anyone downloaded Dr. Feickert's app called PlatterSpeed? This seems like an accurate (or close to) measurement of platter rotation. You play a 3150 hz. test tone (on many test records) and it gives you the rotation by measuring pitch. FREE
The Mint Protractor is an arc protractor. These are the best kind of protractors in my opinion. I believe they are the easiest to use and provide the most accurate alignment.
Enjoy!
John Elison
Well, an arc protractor doesn't provide any more accuracy than other protractors. Tangency at two points is what it comes down to and other devices will get you to exactly the same settings. What is critical IMO is a mirrored surface to line up the cantilever more easily.
As for ease, that's a matter of opinion and I have a different one.
Moreover where an arc protractor may disappoint is that if your arm is not located at precisely the specified center to pivot distance, and it may be that few are, the arc protractor will give you a headache.
Personally I prefer a "point to the pivot" type of protractor. One protractor to rule them all---to work with any arm. No iterations. Set it and forget it. Inexpensive.
Happy Thanksgiving . . . now on to the turkey!
> Personally I prefer a "point to the pivot" type of protractor.
In my opinion, this type of protractor is the worst kind of protractor because it allows the greatest possibility for an erroneous alignment. It is virtually impossible to point the line exactly at the pivot and there is no way of confirming whether it's pointed accurately or not. Just the slightest pointing error will result in substantial null-point and overhang error without any way to double check the results.
The arc protractor, on the other hand, is the easiest to determine whether or not overhang is set correctly, especially when using a magnifying glass. Once the stylus traces the arc perfectly, you know beyond any shadow of a doubt that overhang is right on the button. Then you need only adjust offset to one of the two alignment grids. After that, you can easily recheck overhang to make sure the stylus still traces the arc exactly. The arc protractor provides complete assurance that your alignment is as accurate as humanly possible.
However, to each his own!
Happy Thanksgiving!
John Elison
Well, I've been pointing my Cart-a-lign to the pivot for many years without the problem John worries about. To make it, or a similar one like the Turntablebasics, even easier you can just tape some card stock to it and extend the pointing line to the pivot and then it wold be easy enough even for John to get exactly right. There are many other simple tricks.
As is said below, the Feikert type of protractor, or the VPI, easily allows for a perfect point. In the case of the VPI one it is just for their arms. Each of them could be improved, I think, with a mirror surface making it easier to align the cantilever.
John, I haven't the slightest doubt that with just a little practice you can do it, save yourself some money and be ready, without spending another dime, for that VPI 3D JMW arm attached to the VPI Prime that you covet.
> John, I haven't the slightest doubt that with just a little practice you can do it, save yourself some money...
I've done it and I fully understand the principle of the "point-to-the-pivot" type of protractor. However, my preference is for the arc protractor because it allows complete confirmation of the alignment. There are two null-point grids and the stylus/cantilever must line up at both simultaneously while holding the protractor stationary. You can also reconfirm overhang by rechecking that the stylus follows the arc exactly. I am fairly knowledgeable and experienced regarding cartridge alignment and I prefer the arc protractor over any other type of protractor I've used.
With regard to spending money, I prefer not to ! Therefore, I make my own arc protractors using Conrad Hoffman's Custom Arc Template Generator for Phono Cartridge Alignment . It is a free program you can download and it allows you to make sure the arc corresponds exactly with your tonearm's pivot-to-spindle mounting distance.
To each his own!
Best regards,
John Elison
thank you john e. for your suggestion about the printable protractors. i had a problem with my main cartridge the other day and put my back up zu denon on the arm, but in the past have had a feikert on long term loan that is now gone. i ordered a new one, but it won't be in until next week. so, in the meantime, i printed one for my arm and used it on my zu. the zu, like all denons is very hard to align because the stylus sits so far under the body, but with an old radio shack helping hands and bright flash light, i managed. the music was sorted out better and the bass tighter, so an improvement over eyeballing. luckily, from use of the past feikert, i knew the spindle to pivot distance was 299 mm. once you have that number, the program is simple. thanks again.
Tom Collins
You're Welcome!
One thing you should be aware of when using Feickert's Protractor is that the two alignment null-point grids are offset from each other by a fixed angle. This angle corresponds to one specific effective length tonearm only. Therefore, unless your particular tonearm has the unique effective length corresponding to Feickert's null-point grid offset angle, you will need to reposition the protractor when checking between Step 2 and Step 3. In other words, Feickert's protractor is not an arc protractor although the alignment grids are laid out on an arc. That arc will be valid for one specific length tonearm only. Consequently, after setting cartridge offset at Step 2, it is perfectly okay to reposition the protractor when rechecking cartridge offset at Step 3.
I couldn't find any mention of the actual null-point radii used by Feickert's Universal Protractor. Normally, when we think of Baerwald (Lofgren A) we think of null-points of 66-mm and 120.9-mm, but those are only valid for the IEC modulated groove envelope with innermost groove at 60.325-mm and outermost groove at 146.05-mm. You might want to measure the distance on Feickert's protractor from the spindle hole to the "B" null-point lines at Step 2 and Step 3 just to confirm the null points are in fact 66-mm and 120.9-mm.
Anyway, it will be interesting to find out how closely the alignment achieved with Feickert's protractor corresponds with Conrad Hoffman's arc protractor.
Good luck,
John Elison
Yes. I was thinking the same. Could send it back I suppose.
Tom Collins
the Feikert works very well and is easy to set up to assure accuracy.
Tom Collins
for him measurements are measurements and numbers don't lie.
He has the schematics to prove it!
There are NO exceptions, dammit!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
There is nothing defective about it at all. It is a matter of using a protractor that matches the actual distance between the two points. And, as I pointed out in my reply to Harry, the actual difference turned out to be very minor and not audible. Like you said, to each his own.
> Like you said, to each his own.
Here's another good one:
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." ;-)
How many times do I have to say that the insanity in this business over arc protractors and alignment is total nonsense designed to sell arc protractors and make customers afraid of setting up there turntables.
This is a very simple process requiring no more than 15 minutes of setup time and a good pair of glasses. The spindle to pivot distance is irrelevant to anyone who has actually set up a few thousand cartridges and has heard what those differences actually are sonically. I align the cantilever, not the cartridge, not the cartridge location.,
This is no different than a doctor telling you your pressure is high but not giving you the numbers, he keeps you in the dark so he has all the answers and you need him more than you actually do. COME ON VINYL LOVERS, YOU CAN DO IT YOURSELF, YOU DO NOT NEED EXPERTS TO SET UP A TONEARM. Watch the VPI videos and you will get it 99% right.
HW
> How many times do I have to say that the insanity in this business over arc protractors and alignment is total
> nonsense designed to sell arc protractors and make customers afraid of setting up there turntables.I don't believe I've ever heard you say that before. The last thing you said in this thread that I remember is:
> You can print out arc protractors for any spindle to pivot distance and get your alignment perfect that way.
Of course, this is only true when the tonearm is mounted at the proper distance from the spindle relative to its effective length.
Here is another statement that you wrote in this thread:
> The spindle to pivot distance is irrelevant to anyone who has actually set up a few thousand cartridges
I don't know where you get these ideas, but they demonstrate a serious lack of understanding regarding tonearm alignment geometry.
Let's talk about the tonearm parameters you published on your webpage for the JMW 10-3D tonearm . I believe this is the tonearm you provide with the Prime turntable. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The following three parameters define a unique null-point alignment geometry:
Pivot-to-spindle = 258-mm
Effective length = 273.4-mm
Offset angle = 19.98-degreesThe alignment null-points for the tonearm parameters above are:
Inner Null-Point = 70.1-mm
Outer Null-Point = 116.7-mmThis alignment reduces tracking error distortion in-between the null-points by allowing higher distortion to occur in the inner and outer groove areas. It is commonly know as Lofgren's "B" alignment as represented by the following graph.
Now, the protractor you provide with your Prime turntable is designed for a different null-point alignment. I measured the inner null-point directly from the protractor to be about 66-mm. Then, I calculated the outer null-point using Seb's Equation to be about 121-mm. I'm confused as to why you stipulate one alignment on your webpage and yet the protractor you provide with your Prime turntable is designed for a different alignment. Can you explain this discrepancy?
Thanks,
John Elison
Edits: 11/24/15
Is it?
Runs away laughing and bouncing like Daffy.
100%!
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
.
What you might try doing is loosen the arm base mounting screws, the arm base has quite a bit a free motion before tightening down and we set it for 258 +/- 1 mm. It could have been moved in shipping. Having seen the adjustment range of the arm base I think you can get to where you want to be or much closer than now. While I doubt you will hear a difference you will feel better.
Making the Avenger with multiple arms and rotating arm boards has shown me the actual distance is less critical then you knowing what it is and compensating for it. You can print out arc protractors for any spindle to pivot distance and get your alignment perfect that way.
I know I make Fremer and probably John crazy when I say these things but I hear a much greater difference getting azimuth, SRA, and VTF spot on then the overall lateral alignment. I can play with the overhang and spindle to pivot distance all day and hear almost no difference as long as I am relatively close. You're just moving where the null points are and where you like your distortion to set in and how much, a no win game. Then again I don't use anti-skate which makes other people crazy!!
BTW, if you play a lot of classical the Stevensen method sounds the best!!!
Enjoy your Prime and play music, not math.
HW
I should have read your post yesterday. Yesterday I played with tracking using an Accu-Trac protractor. First I checked to see how far off my cartridge was as it was set with a 258 mm protractor. A very small amount, perhaps the thickness of the line outside the arc on the inner part. Two hours later it was spot on. If that much difference matters I can't hear it. Then I redid the alignment using the Stevenson method because that is what I used for years and because it was a rainy day anyway. The Stevenson method sounds better on the inner most part of the record where the grand finale on many classical pieces is found. Otherwise, for jazz and classical the Baerwald sounds a wee bit better. Not a big deal either way. I agree with you about azimuth and VTF as being more important. Personally, I think a bigger difference than any of this is getting the speed stable with either an SDS or the Phoenix Engineering stuff. That is my opinion anyway and I am sticking with it.
You are spot on and it is about time for customers to understand this is not a on off game, there are a million ways to mount a cartridge correctly.
I love Tony Cordesman's comments to me years ago about alignment,"Since the hole is not in the center which side are you aligning for!!!"
> You can print out arc protractors for any spindle to pivot distance and get your alignment perfect that way.> I know I make Fremer and probably John crazy when I say these things...
Tonearm effective length and pivot-to-spindle distance must be matched to each other in order to achieve proper alignment. When you increase pivot-to-spindle mounting distance you also need to increase tonearm effective length. The headshell slots will allow for only small errors in pivot-to-spindle distance because their main purpose is to accommodate cartridges with different stylus-to-mounting-hole dimensions not gross errors in pivot-to-spindle distance. Whether or not you can hear the increased distortion resulting from cartridge misalignment does not alter the facts regarding tonearm alignment geometry.
I think your turntables represent an excellent value in today's marketplace, especially the new Prime. Two of my friends just bought the Prime and it sounds very good to me.
Best regards,
John Elison
Edits: 11/22/15
The effective tonearm length was increased using the slots, with much room to spare. A protractor for the actual distance was used. All is well.
"..if you play a lot of classical the Stevensen method sounds the best!!!"
Wow, HW; can you elaborate? Classical is about all I listen to.
Forget about 'Çlassical Music'. If you listen to records of any genre and you don't want to suffer the vagaries of alignments and anti-skate, you move to the best linear tracking arm you can afford and align the cartridge as closely as you can to radial tracking. That is also not perfect and carries its own set of compromises but with a great linear tracker and accurate alignment to the radius of the record it disposes of a raft of troubling problems that only arise with the pivoting arm.
Edits: 07/31/16
I don't mean to put words in HW's mouth, but in the event he doesn't reply, I'll take a stab at your question.
In a lot of classical music, the loudest, most complex passages occur at the end of a composition. These are the most demanding in terms of the stylus tracking the grooves. This means these complex, demanding passages occur in the innermost grooves of an LP side. The Stevenson alignment, if I understand it correctly, places the inner null point (which is one of the points of the least distortion) closer to the innermost grooves of an LP side. Hence, you get lower distortion in the areas where the most complex music occurs.
I hope this is decently close, but if not, perhaps someone (HW if possible) will elaborate.
-Bob
Many pieces have their loudest parts within a movement, and not toward the beginning or end.
Many do. But I would say that MOST classical works are more likely to have loud passages at the end. Maybe not THE very loudest passages, but certainly loud ones. Of course, as with all generalizations, this is not universally true. If you Google "Stevenson alignment classical music" you will see that this theory is not mine alone, for instance at the link below. Again, I have no idea whether or not this is why HW made his statement, but I do think it stands up to reason.
-Bob
Now I wonder if Stevensen wrote a paper on the subject....
Hi Steve,
Did you check the Vinyl FAQ?
... Peter Ledermann and you must have had interesting conversations when he came up with the original "VPI Zephyr" (I have one, on a 10.5i).
Edits: 11/21/15
We have had a few, he is very much into the engineering side while I on the other hand have decided that like rich women's faces, what a million years of evolution gave you is only a recommendation.
HW
Interesting comment about evolution and "rich women's faces." I'm still trying to figure it out.
rich women's faces frequently attempt to defy evolution and natural, graceful aging through
the help of that financial richness and (usually a not very capable) plastic surgeon.
In other words, tweaking.
There are exceptions as with most things in this wonderful life.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks. I wonder how long it would have taken me to figure that out.
nt
Congratulations on your Prime.
I love cj so pretty sure I would dig sitting in and listening to your system. Sweet setup.
Thank you. I live in West Palm Beach, Florida, you have an open invitation.
Maybe we can make a mini event out of it?
sounds great and congrats. your description sounds like my tnt, but it would take $12k to duplicate my tnt table with upgrades today so the prime is a killer deal. long waits though, but rightly so given the value.
Tom Collins
Great insight on your setup experience.
The SS CI is mandatory to keep your sanity.
A Prime will likely be the upgrade from my Classic I. Seems like a better deal than a Classic III or latest iteration.
Are you just monitoring the speed with the tach, or doing the Roadrunner setup?
The only I thing would change as I did with my Classic-brass footers on a maple slab.
Sonic improvement isn't necessarily drastic, but a nice aesthetic touch.
Happy listening!
I have the Eagle/Roadrunner package, but this write up did not include it. I will write it up separately at a later time. A friend has a Classic 3 and he and I have compared the two. The difference is not great. The 3D arm is the key, whichever deck it was on sounded better.
Congrats on you acquisition.
"I have the Eagle/roadrunner package, but this write up did not include it"
I've been curious about the speed accuarcy of my Classic. Since it's the latest model(DC motor) the RR can't be used.
The Prime seems to be the "sweet spot" of the VPI line. It has my attention as the replacement of the Classic.
You have an AC motor in your Classic, we have never used a DC motor. What you see is a power supply to feed the small version if the SDS built into your table, it is a sine wage regenerator that feeds the motor a perfect 60HZ sine wave.
We used that for about one year in Classic 1's and Travelers.
HW
Interesting. So the SDS isn't really necessary on some of the Classic 1's and Travelers?
aahh...so the DC signal is fed to an inverter circuit to an AC motor. Understood
Same thing going on with my main power feeding the gear-PSA Power Plant.
My belief was reinforced by the dealer while inquiring about the SDS.
Thanks for the clarification.
Are you certain the motor is DC? Harry has stated many times that he feels that AC is the way to go. Every other VPI that I know of has used an AC motor.
Of course it wouldn't be the first time VPI has tried different technologies but this is the first I've heard of a DC motor on a VPI.
the latest version of the Classic I has a DC motor.All earlier versions indeed, have the AC motor. Perhaps the only non USA part.
I contacted VPI, if I MUST have dead accurate speed, they will install the 300 RPM AC motor/pulley.
That is a DC supply for their built in controller. The motor in your Classic is actually a 24V AC synchronous motor. The table has its own AC regenerator, but with fixed frequency output. As John said, you can use the RoadRunner with the table, but you would have to bypass the internal controller or replace the motor with the standard 120VAC synch motor if you wanted to use the Eagle controller.
You can use the RoadRunner tachometer with your turntable regardless of whether your motor is AC or DC. The RoadRunner simply measures the rotational speed of your platter.
Do you have a platter speed adjustment on your turntable? If so, the RoadRunner will allow you to achieve an accurate speed setting. I use the RoadRunner on my turntable without the Eagle because my turntable has its own regenerative power supply.
Good luck,
John Elison
Yes, I'm afraid If I buy the tach, I will find out the table speed is off .000? and I will obsess on it not being accurate even though I can't really hear it!
The pulley steps are suppsedly different diameter, so there is the a little wiggle room.
I do notice slight pitch variations when playing my guitar along with tunes. I suppose we could nit pik and question if I'm tuned to precise A440?
I think you might be surprised how far off the speed might be and I'll bet you could hear the difference. The OP stated that his Prime was running 33.595-33.605 which is ~0.8% fast, which to most people is audible.
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