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Hi,
I noticed that Kuzma is introducing a 14" version of their highly regarded 4 point tonearm. In the VPI forums , Harry also said that he will be coming out w/ a 14" & possible 16" tonearm.
I have 12" tonearms on both my turntables. They have a smoother , more musical , delicate & better inner detail retrieval than my 9" tonearm. I'm wondering what 14" advantage over the 12" . Pro's & Con's
Mondial
P,S. John Elisson I hope you chime in we value your opinion regarding things like this.
Follow Ups:
For those interested, see page 4 from Keith Howard's article in Stereophile.
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
That must be why people don't like linear tracking tonearms. They probably feel like they will end up with greater tracking error than a 9-inch pivotal tonearm. After all, a linear tracking tonearm is equivalent to a pivotal tonearm with infinite length.
Yeah! That's why I'm sticking with my SME V. ;-)
I cannot discuss the difference between the 12 and 14 inch arms, but I agree completely with your characterisation of the differences between a 9 inch and 12 inch arm. I changed my SME 3009 Mk II for the 2012 Mk II--same table and cartridge. No contest. The detail retrieval, smoothness and clarity of the longer arm were obvious.
I agree w/ you George it's indeed no contest. The flow of music is so smooth.
You guys are talking about the difference you perceive between 9-inch and 12-inch tonearms of one particular brand. It's "dangerous" based on observations such as this to extrapolate to ALL 9-inch arms vs ALL 12-inch tonearms. YMMV, always.
Dangerous? Why? He says it is true for SME arms. HW says it is true for VPI arms. Just how many different observations would satisfy you?To which I would add: As long as the longer arm had a mass within the satisfactory range of the cartridge.
Edits: 09/25/15
Mark Baker creator of Origin Live tonearms and TT`s says it`s true.....
Rgds Jan
I put the word "dangerous" in quotation marks to let anyone know that I used it with tongue in cheek. Of course, it's not dangerous, and of course your conclusion based on comparing two different brands of tonearm may be correct, or at least beyond a doubt it reflects the opinions of a few different observers as well as yourself, which strengthens the argument. I am not arguing either way; I have no position pro or con 12-inch tonearms. In fact, I do quite like my Reed 10.5-inch tonearm, although I would not say it was superior solely due to its length vs my other tonearms which are all 9-inchers. I would need a 9-inch Reed made of the same wood to even begin to do that.
Pro: The longer the tonearm, the lower its tracking error.
Con: The longer the tonearm, the greater its effective mass.
What's the downside of extra mass? I thought that arm mass was mainly an issue with matching to the compliance of the cartridge. I was wondering this same issue the other day reading about an arm made from carbon fiber. What does the low mass of carbon fiber arms really buy you or is it just that carbon fiber arms offer superior rigidity?
Sorry if these are elementary questions.
Most modern cartridges today are designed for tonearms with effective mass in the neighborhood of 10 to 12-grams. Higher mass tonearms cause the arm/cartridge resonance frequency to become too low thereby allowing warps in the record to excite the resonance resulting in excessive intermodulation distortion and mistracking.
Generally speaking, low-mass tonearms and high-compliance cartridges will provide the best tracking ability. Unfortunately, structural rigidity is inadequate in low-mass tonearms so medium-mass tonearms of 10 to 12-grams effective mass have become the norm. Consequently, high-compliance cartridges have been replaced with medium compliance cartridges.
High-mass tonearms are basically a thing of the past because they require low-compliance cartridges with tracking forces in the 3 to 6-gram range, which causes premature record wear. Low-mass tonearms are also a thing of the past due to structural stability issues. Therefore, nearly all tonearms today are medium-mass and nearly all cartridges today are medium compliance.
When tonearms become longer it requires more material and greater mass. If you make a 14 or 16-inch tonearm with medium mass, its structural stability suffers and performance suffers as a result. Therefore, 10 to 12-inches is the maximum length for which all the critical parameters can be maintained at optimal levels.
Best regards,
John Elison
...
John, both your answers came to mind when I read the OP. But I might add a potential second Con: reduced rigidity.
The problem is to have all lengths of the same design and material composition. Otherwise it will not be a like for like comparison.
Ignoring the 14" option, and certainly any 16", I considered the more typical 9/10/12 inch selection. For my own reasons I chose the "Three Bears" option and went with the 10".
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
Hi John thanks for your reply. So if there is lesser tracking error & greater effective mass how does this corelate to the sound / sonics compared to a 9" & 12" tonearm. John how long is long enough , I thought 12" was long. What would be the ideal length in order to balance the pros/cons ?
Thanks in advance,
Mondial
Well, I'm perfectly happy with my 9-inch SME V and I have no desire for a different tonearm. On the other hand, if I did have a desire for a different tonearm, it would probably be the 12-inch SME V-12.
Best regards,
John Elison
Hi John ,
A friend of mine has the SME V 9" and he upgraded it to the SME V 12 . The difference is that the longer arm has a much smoother sound. We used a TNT 6 and a Dynavector XV 1S. You will like the 12 " version of the V . I myself wanted to get an SME V12 but I ended getting the Kuzma Stogi Ref 313 VTA , it's cheaper & it has a VTA Tower , a worm drive repeatable Azimuth adjustment,a rigid removable headshell. ABEC 9 bearings . Build quality is excellent but not as nice as the SME.
Mondial
the more accurate you have to be with alignment. A small error in alignment will be more greatly magnified by a longer tonearm vs a shorter one. Also, as John implies, if your particular cartridge "likes" a higher effective mass, your observation about sound quality could be entirely due to the increase in effective mass, between the 9 and 12-inch SMEs. Also, there is the possibility that by chance you did a better job with alignment when you mounted the longer tonearm vs the shorter tonearm. Lots of unknowns in this equation.
Personally, I like 10-inch or 10.5-inch, as a compromise.
Is this so? It's not immediately intuitive. Quite the contrary.
John, you would know.
Mel
Think about a straight-line tracking arm, which is equivalent to a pivotal tonearm with infinite length. If there is any alignment error at all, that error will exist at all points on the record playing surface. Therefore, the longer the tonearm, the more a misalignment becomes apparent at other points on the playing surface. On the other hand, you would have to be pretty inept at alignment to reach the level of error at which a 12 or 14-inch arm would actually have greater tracking error than a 9-inch tonearm.
For example, a perfectly aligned 12-inch tonearm will have 28% lower tracking error distortion than a perfectly aligned 9-inch tonearm. Now, suppose we introduce an offset error of 1-degree to both tonearms. The 12-inch tonearm will still have lower overall tracking error distortion than the 9-inch tonearm, but only by 11.5% instead of 28%. Moreover, it would be unreasonable to believe that anyone who knows how to align tonearms would end up with that much alignment error.
Best regards,
John Elison
Nice work John, very well explained.
I have played with all my arm lengths done in 3D printing plus some 14" and 16" and when properly aligned the longer arm will always sound smoother but the bass on the 10" is the best!
It probably has to so with the loss of rigidity as you get longer but that smoothness is hard to pass up.
Thanks John. I'll take the second paragraph and pass on the first.
I stand corrected. Although I do think it would be quite easy to make a one degree error in alignment of the cantilever.What happens to a 12-incher vs a 9-incher, if one mis-locates the pivot point by 1.0mm. Does that have any effect on tracking angle distortion, or does that only affect the location of the points on the playing surface where zero tracking angle distortion momentarily occurs?
Edits: 09/25/15
Most of us who know anything about tonearm alignment use a protractor with two alignment grids. If you make a 1.0-mm error overhang, it will become clear to you when you find it impossible to achieve alignment at both null-points simultaneously.
I don't think you will find anyone who decides not to own a linear tracking tonearm because they think it will have worse alignment than a 9-inch pivotal tonearm. However, the argument you are promoting against longer tonearms suggests exactly that. After all, a linear tracking tonearm is equivalent to a pivotal tonearm with infinite length. Are you suggesting a 9-inch tonearm can be aligned with less tracking error than a linear tracking tonearm? If not, then it is equally ridiculous to think that a 9-inch tonearm can be aligned with less tracking error than 12 or 14-inch tonearm.
Best regards,
John Elison
I am not even arguing. I thought I was having a discussion from which I might learn something. You apparently perceive me as antagonistic, instead and as usual.
I didn't mean to suggest you were arguing in the sense of a quarrel, disagreement, squabble, fight, or dispute. Instead, I was using the word "argument" to mean a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.No, I don't perceive you as antagonistic.
Actually, the "argument" suggesting longer tonearms are more sensitive to alignment errors was introduced by Bob Graham in defense of his decision not to manufacturer and sell a 12-inch tonearm. He wrote a white paper on the subject as a sales and marketing tactic because he didn't want to be bothered making a 12-inch version of his unipivot tonearm. When I read his argument against long tonearms, I conducted my own analysis and found that the alignment error had to be fairly large for his argument to hold any weight. One of his examples talked about a 3-degree offset error. If you can't get offset error well under one-degree, it's probably not worth attempting to align your tonearm to begin with.
Best regards,
John Elison
Edits: 09/25/15
May I add that the Graham White Paper was in response to the 12" arm VPI and SME were making and the great reviews they were getting. I responded at the time that he was either not telling the truth or not that bright, there was actually no other choice!!!
HW
Hi HW , John , et al ,
Thank you very much for your replies it's very educational and I hope every body is learning from this discussion . BTW Bob Graham is making a 12" tonearm for the Tech Das turntable. It seems he disregarded the white paper he made in the 90's .Harry , John how does one determine how long a tonearm should be. Instead of 12" for example why not 13" instead of 14" ? What is the sweet spot in your experience?
One thing I notice is that the longer the tonearm one needs a bigger & wider plinth. Good if one owns the new VPI Avenger were in you just use a longer cantilever to hold the turntable assembly.
Mondial
because your phrase "sweet spot" is undefined and not obviously definable. A "sweet spot" between (or among) what and what (&c.)?
Jeremy
Hi ,
The sweet spot from tonearm design (length ) from 9" to 16"
Mondial
But then the answer flows from John Ellison, above. The "sweet spot" (I still think that's a misnomer) would be the longest length compatible with an inertial mass suitable for your cartridge of choice and with such design constraints as may be dictated by the size of your table's plinth or your ability to move (relocate) a separate tonearm support.
Because size of plinth/complexity of arm-support location, lightness of tonearm materials to compensate for mass of extra length without forsaking rigidity, and so on, tend to involve financial considerations, I suppose that cost is another factor in finding the "sweet spot". I also guess that your "sweet spot" might well differ from many others' -- possibly you may even be unique. Hence my cavil about "sweet spot".
Jeremy
Hi ,
So the question should be what would be the ideal lenght w/ the least tracking error , is the most compatible w/ most cartridges , and can be mounted on a reasonable size plinth.
Thanks for the correction . Personally goldenthal w/c would you choose? If its ok may I know what is the lenght of your tonearm (9, 10, 10.5 , 11 , 12 , 14 , 16 ) or are you into linear tracking & what cartridge ? Why did you choose that lenght , type of tonearm , model & brand.
Thanks in advance,
Mondial
and remember, I am flawed . . . have been made over many years. I currently use a 9-inch SME pivoted tonearm, but may next move to a Sme V-12 or a Kuzma 4-point. At this time, I do not intend to experiment with tangential trackers. The best-sounding cartridges of my experience have all been low-output mcs tending to have medium to low compliance so a bit of extra mass from the extra length is unlikely to hurt and may help. Not my pocketbook but my sense of sanity causes me to agree with John Ellison re phono-cartridge value vs. cost (as well as some other of his views that seem to me based on math and common sense).
As for why I choose/chose various pieces of equipment I now use in my home, I suspect that that depends/depended on the quality of my hearing at the relevant times as well as that of my access to pieces for serious audition, how financially flush I was feeling, whether long-term exposure to a piece drove me away or recommended keeping or finding something similar, my primitive (but not totally absent) understanding of engineering principles, other considerations explicable only by a psychologist -- shall I go on?
The "sweet spot" in all that is the one that commends itself most to you and not necessarily to any other.
Good luck,
Jeremy
You forgot to mention one's choice of speakers as a prime determinant of what upstream equipment one chooses. Subconsciously or consciously, those choices of upstream components will be governed by the "sound" one is seeking from one's speakers (and one's listening room).
Sorry for misspelling your name -- I do that more and more as I age (too many years correcting papers).
Jeremy
Most people misspell my name. I've never figured out why since my name is spelled correctly in bold black letter on every one of my posts. I think some people do it on purpose. ;-)
It doesn't bother me, though.
Best regards,
John Elison
I believe it to be true (that alignment accuracy is more critical for a longer tonearm than for a shorter one), but I too will let John have the final say. I've never done the geometry, and John probably has.
The more I read about this issue, the more skeptical I become about audiophile listening abilities.
I read the 2/22/09 post on the 9" vs 12" AVID HiFi comparison graphs, regarding tracking error and tracking distortion, as well as the dozens of reviews, posts and blogs since then.
The initial error is in the use of average distortion figures and the difference in which audiophiles claim they can hear, when comparing 9" vs 12" tonearms, i.e. the difference between 0.85% and 0.67% averages respectively, or a difference of 0.18%, and interpreting that difference in audiophile terms, as being a "smoother" and "more transparent" sound. I would argue that this is sheer audiophile nonsense.
If someone is capable of detecting that 0.18% difference, then s/he ought to be able to detect the trajectory of tracking error/distortion, when a properly set-up cartridge tracks the lp between the two null points. If the 0.18% difference is detectable, then s/he ought to be able to hear the more pronounced rise and fall of error/distortion levels, as the stylus moves across the lp. Yet no reviewer, poster or blogger in my readings has ever claimed this achievement, much less proven this ability in a blind or double-blind test. I have not heard this variation, would strain to hear any such variation on any particular lp and would be loathe to subject myself to a double-blind test on this, since I believe I would fail miserably.
Additionally, why would any self-respecting audiophile want to have a smoother sound ? Live orchestral sounds are marked by micro-variations in texture, timbre and dynamics. A smoother sound to me implies a muddier sound, akin to Muzak®, supermarket and elevator car music. Are not audiophiles aware that there is inherent and naturally occurring distortion in the human voice, particularly in the male voice and obvious in the male chorus ? Any accurate reproduction of the male chorus must reproduce this natural distortion, and the self-respecting audiophile must discern the difference between natural and inherent distortion in any recording and the distortion being generated by the sound system.
Unfortunately I get none of this from the audiophile press or in any of the forums. Am I missing something ?
I become skeptical, when audiophiles begin to demand 14" and 16" tonearms, much as they demand 25kHz - 40kHz supertweeters, because they can sense these minute vibrations and variations with their wonderful bodies.
You raise some very valid issues. Furthermore, I tend to agree with your perspective on the very small advantage of slightly longer tonearms. On the other hand, I have read that some people claim to hear the slight distortion from tracking error in-between the null-points, but I'm not sure I believe them. Like you, I think many audiophiles believe they hear things they would never be able to prove in a double blind test.
At any rate, both my tonearms are 9-inch tonearms and I'm perfectly happy. When I bought my SME V, I had enough money to buy any tonearm I wanted and I still bought a SME V. I have no intention of ever buying another turntable or another tonearm.
Best regards,
John Elison
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