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24.192.5.46
Hello,
I have a chance to get an unused Denon DL-103D low output moving coil cartridge. I have a Linn LP12 with the Ittok LVII arm. Where I am a bit lost is the question: does this cartridge fit as far as the weight of the arm/cartridge is concerned, it seems that the stiffness of the arm also plays a role, high output, low output, etc?
Thanks in advance.
Follow Ups:
I had a DL103r on an LP12 Ittok and it just didn't work. No life.
An AT OC9/ml2 worked wonders, tight detailed and bouncy.
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Mine is in a SME 3009/II in a Stax head-shell (with two draw-pins). It needs mild fluid damping from the FD200 damping pot. I use STP in the pot and a cut-down paddle (looks like a match stick).
1.4gms TF.
IIRC the Ittok is a medium mass arm.
It might just work.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
I have a modified 103 (benz stylus ,naked body ,and more weight
on top )which works wonderfully on a ittok /lp 12 table (denon
step up xformer)
Best results with a low gain mm phono with sut (audible illusion 2c;
mc intosh mx 110;fisher 400 integrated tube )
A standard 103 (a 103C) has quite low compliance and a higher TF than a D or a 103S. Unless you had the compliance increased when the work was done, the resonant frequency will only have shifted upwards a little if at all. IIRC effective tip mass / moving mass (ETM) is not a big factor driving LF arm/cart resonance, especially in MCs. The two main factors are arm mass (plus cart. mass) and the compliance of the cartridge.So yours still should work in the Ittok's mass, and it does. A 103 will also work well in quite heavy arms like an FR64, or an Ortofon 212. It was meant to.
To use a 103D in a medium mass arm you may need some kind of magnetic or fluid damping, or the arm/cart resonance might fall below 1O Hz / raise the Q of the resonance.
Arm/cart resonances below 10hz / of high-Q are not a good thing.
Even with a system using *sealed speakers. Because as the power demands on the amplifier and into the bass driver/s will increase. And, this is almost always below the system's audible bandwidth.
*Even if ELF excursion doesn't increase in the sealed enclosure, IMD and HD will increase.
Also, sensitivity to warps increases.
LBNL, Denon used? to specify cu at a higher frequency than most MFrs (100 Hz?) which understates the compliance when making comparison with other makes.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 07/28/15 07/28/15
IT seems to work well with lower mass tonearms. I have two and I've used them on SME Series II Improved and on the Technics 1200 tonearms albeit with a very light Denon magnesium headshell.
A GREAT cartridge, by the way. Mine was re-tipped by SoundSmith with the mid level tip (ruby cantilever, line contact).
does a 103D have different compliance from 103 or 103R?
I've tried 103 & 103R on a Naim ARO tone arm ( medium mass ) on an LP12 and Phonosophie No.3 and results were less than good.
I think that a heavy headshell add on might have helped but Ittok has a fixed headshell.
It has a much higher compliance and a heavy body. It worked well on Grace 707.
Dave
But not much.
So, wood bodies with metal threads could be an issue when added to a 103D motor, lowering the resonant frequency and raising Q.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
.
I've always thought of the 103D as a very low complaince cartridge, but I sure could be wrong. Anyway, the SoundSmith re-tip on yours may have changed that property of the original.
In short, yes you are wrong, a 103D has ~27cu at 10 Hz.Changing the tip and cantilever could only affect the effective tip mass or moving mass of the cart's motor, which is in any case quite a bit lower than any MM cart.
So it is unlikely to change the compliance much. I'm not certain, but what-if 103Cs come with a diamond mounted on a metal rod and then glued into the cantilever? And, most re-tippers use a 'nude diamond', then the ETM is going to be a bit lower, so the LF res. might actually rise a tiny bit.
The effective mass of arm and cart and the cart's suspension are the two main factors driving LF resonance.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 07/28/15 07/28/15
Thanks for correcting me on the native compliance of a 103D, but my point about the effect of a re-tip was based on an assumption that replacing the cantilever, which is done pari passu with the SoundSmith work, may involve also a change in the suspension which in turn might or might not affect vertical compliance.
And a re-tipper might / should ask about your arm, damping, current TF, A/S, etc.
Brian and John Garrott used to ask about all of that.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
I don't see how one can replace a cantilever/stylus without in some way changing the nature of the suspension materials, since they in fact "suspend" the cantilever at some point along its length. Thus it would seem likely that there would be an effect on compliance, however small or large. For extreme example, if the cartridge is "vintage", the re-tipper might want to use new suspension materials entirely, which would surely affect compliance. On a relatively new or recent production cartridge, perhaps that would not be necessary, but still...
Unless the customer wanted a significant shift, when suspension components - like the yoke in 103s - would need to be different.I've had several of my own stylus assemblies (V15/III) and three 103Ds retipped, by the Garrott Brothers (the two original men) and by VDH, as well as shipped off carts to both when I worked weekends.
None of them came back with notes to me or to our customers indicating a significant shift in TF or damping requirements.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 07/31/15
Normally, even if a cantilever is changed, it would be replaced at the joint pipe leaving the damper and suspension alone. Otherwise the internals would have to be rebuilt. I guess it would depend on the cart, but IMO the 103D might not warrant more than a cantilever/tip replacement.
I bought an old Denon table w/Unitrac arm and DL103D. That was a popular match back in the day. The arm is 7g. I think 27cu might be an overestimate? Max VTF is 1.7g and compliance is 12cu @ 100Hz. The Ittock is 10g?? It should be fine. In my experience most high compliance Denon MC's, 304, DL-S1, sound best on arms of similar mass, even a little higher.
neo
BIRD LIVES
The three 103Ds I have had track really well at 1.4 to 1.5 grams but needed damping in a 3009/II detachable shell arm.First two had Garrott Micro-scanners added, current one has a fine line VDH and a boron cantilever.
With a line-contact stylus the trackability, as SHURE used to call it, increases quite a bit at the same TF.
IME in a medium mass arm will need damping to cope with a 103D or 103S, and I've set up a lot more than the three I own. The D works best in arms of 5-10 gm effective mass, and may still need damping.
I don't think a 103D will work well in an Ittok with an effective mass of 10-15 gm and no damping.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 07/30/15
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