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I spoke to a salesman at a local stereo shop yesterday about my system, and asked him what he thought my weakest component is. Specifically, I asked: "Given $500, what should I add/ upgrade to get better sound out of my vinyl?"
I have what most on this forum would consider a lo-fi system:
Receiver: Onkyo TX-DS474. AV receiver, 55 watts/channel @8 ohms .08% THD
Built in phono stage: input sensitivity/impedence 2.5mV, 50kohms, phono overload, 110mV RMS @1kHz, .5% THD (I'm not sure what this means)
Turntable: Rega Planar 3
Cart: Grado blue
Speakers: Infinity Primus P162 (2-way bookshelf)
My listening room is 12' x 12'
My main complaint is that my vinyl playback lacks detail. Many pressings that should sound amazing leave me dissapointed. It's difficult to describe. I guess 'muddy' or lack of soundstage?
So, what do you guys think? I thought that the salesperson's analysis and recomendation was reasonable. I know it's a tough question to answer without actually listening, but, given this information, where would you put $500.00? What's my weakest link?
Thanks in advance
Follow Ups:
I owned a few Onkyo AVR's during the 90's and early 2000's, 2 high end and one was the precursor to yours, the TX-SV424. I used the phono sections in each and they were pretty good, as I remember, and interestingly enough they all had the same specs as yours does so I think the basic components didn't change over the years. They only difference was, of course, the built-in amplifiers. In each case the phono input needed more volume and the higher end Onkyo's could provide it more easily than the 424 with the speakers I had at the time.
I guess a lot depends on the speakers, the room acoustics as someone mentioned, as well as the turntable/cartridge, but in my opinion the phono section of Onkyo AVR's--including yours--wasn't an afterthought in design. But by the same token, a separate phono preamp is specifically designed for that purpose so more thought is put into the components used as well as the advantage of having a separate power supply. I don't think you could go wrong with what your salesman recommended, either, but with some tweaking of what you have even the Onkyo could be quite satisfactory. It'll be interesting, for instance, to see if the new stylus makes a big difference and go from there :)
Thanks Macro and others,
I'll definately try the stylus, room settings, and cart alignment first. It's good to get an opinion on the Onkyo.
I'd like to thank everyone for their feedback.
Here's an update:
A friend of mine brought over some Klipsch RB-61 bookshelf speakers. While still not the quality of what most of you run, they are a step up (at least in price) from mine. I played both vinyl and cd through the speakers and wasn't blown away. They definately had better midrange than my infinities, but I thought the high end on the Klipsch was a bit harsh.
I am going to order a replacement stylus for my Grado Blue. I think I'll step up to the red stylus for $70.00. I've checked my cart algnment (using the rega supplied protractor) and VTF a few time now, and all seems good. I printed a different protractor for the Rega this morning and will be checking alignment again. I'm guessing that my stylus is most likely worn, and definately cruddy. (thanks Kuma, CometCKO, et al).
So, the salesperson at the stereo shop was suspicious of the built in phono stage. He thought that the Onkyo was a descent receiver, but that the built-in phono was most likely an afterthought. He suggested an external phono pre. He mentioned two models to try:
Bellari VP130 w/Mullard - This piqued my interest as I've never owned tubes before. I need to research tube pres into SS reciever
The second was the Cambridge 640P - he mentioned that it would be good if I wanted to upgrade to MC carts.
Overall, I liked and trusted the guy. I told him my budget, and he went under. He said if the pres worked, great, spend the extra cash on vinyl. If not, I could return the pre and start looking at other options.
What do you guys think of the advice?
Thanks again, great forum.
There's Rotel 970BX in the asylum classified (no affiliation)which is half the new price. That's what I have and I like it a lot.
enjoy,
mark
Sounds like a good dealer. I'd take up on his offer. Trying them out in your system is more produtive than reading other folks opinions on the internet. :)
I bought a 540P ( MM only version ) for a friend a few years ago and thought, for a 100$USD, it was pretty darn good ( into a Pioneer DD table ). Just my 2 cents.
.
I would echo kuma's comments - and my first thought was an outboard Phono box...
However I would take many of the previous comments around set-up and 'tweaks' to heart - I am always amazed when I move speakers a bit - toe in or out from a wall etc. at the effect it has on image/sound-stage etc...
Additionally as you tweak the system you will be better able to see where the limits are - a bit like tuning that distant station - the center tune needle may indicate a dial position somewhat left or right of the best sound to your ear...
The system / room interaction is the biggest variable, and one you have control of.
Good luck,
Happy listening
First thing is to check that what you've got is operating correctly. Almost every time I've had a friend with poor-sounding vinyl, it was due to poor setup, or stylus wear. So you've got to be CERTAIN that those things are good before investing money in upgrades.
Modest gear can sound quite wonderful. My daughter has a Rega like yours, with a vintage integrated amplifier and an old pair of KLH speakers (and a modern subwoofer for Rap), and her system is the envy of her dorm-mates.
Anyway, if everything is up to snuff in your system and not borked, your upgrade path should probably include better amplification and maybe in the future some better speakers. But not until you are REALLY sure that the cartridge/stylus is OK, and the setup is spot-on. Small adjustments here can make a HUGE difference in your sound quality. I'm just aayin'
If it were me, I'd lean towards getting a good phono stage, or even a full-function preamplifier if your current receiver can function as an amplifier-only (it should have preamp inputs to do this). For instance, I've seen the very nice Audible Illusion Modulus preamp going used for around $500 or so, and that has a very nice sounding phono stage in it, as well as producing quite a nice sense of "you are there" for other inputs as well. It is not a bad building block for upgrading other aspects of your system too. You could add a decent amp and speakers as you can afford them.
If you are less suspicious of your receiver than I am, you could go for a dedicated phono stage, such as the Graham Slee, or the PS Audio GCPH which are also a quite nice sounding units near your price range. A phono stage would be plugged into your receiver as a high-level input (like a CD player), and I'm sure it would do better service than the Onkyo for that weak little phono signal coming from your cartridge.
But if I were a betting man, I'd bet you need repair/setup more than you need new equipment. You might not end up having to spend much at all to get great sound!
"Knowing what you don't know is, in a sense, omniscience"
I think you have a reasonable source. I would take some time and find an amp/speaker combo that you really like. How does this combo sound with a CD source?
Is your Rega sitting on an Ikea Lack table? If not, that would be the first thing to purchase. These are inexpensive and crucial for using a Rega table. See link below.
Edits: 07/22/12
Is your cartridge aligned correctly, specifically VTA? Muffled and muddy could be a symptom of an incorrectly set up cart.
If this was the case, you could get an improvement for the price of a set of spacers, which would be significantly less than $500....
Cheers
Welly
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams
Are the tweeters at about ear level from your listening position? You might want to try taking the speaker grills off for a little more detail.
Is the cartridge brand new? It may take awhile to break-in. Maybe it's not quite set up properly. If nothing helps, I would look for speakers with highly regarded tweeters.
More Info:
My tweeters are ear level.
My speaker grills are off.
My cartridge is about 6 years old.
I checked cart alignment, vtf, etc.
Thanks for all of the suggestions so far.
I don't know how much vinyl listening you do but entry level MM cartridge is only good for about 500 hrs. If you use your tt more than 1 hr./wk. I'd look for a replacement cartridge first cuz, it's over due.
Edits: 07/22/12
That didn't come up, but I definately have over 500 hours. Thanks for the suggestion. When you say I need to replace the cart, do you really mean the cart, or the stylus? I just looked at needledoctor, and it looks like I can get the higher level Grado replacement styli and they will fit in my blue cart body.
either you can get a replacement stylus for your grado ( that might just fix your problem ) or you could upgrade it to something better.
Grados may not be as detailed as a good MC ,but it shouldn't sound muddy.
I would go for a separate phono pre-amp.There are quite a few very good ones for under $500.00 (or ,even, $200.00).
My 2 cents.
enjoy,
mark
Not sure the Onkyo with the built in phono stage is delivering, plus the bookshelf speakers... I recently picked up a pair of refoamed Infinity RS4b floorstanders and a Denon PMA-757 integrated amp with built in phono stage all for $480, good detail and definitely not layed back. Deals are out there in this down economy, it seems.
I would also try a different cartridge somewhere down the road, I am not a huge Grado fan, or try another model, maybe the Grado Gold? You may want to try another cartridge before changing the speakers and amp/phono pre. The Rega Planar 3 is solid and should deliver.
TR
I'd play around first with free stuff: component damping and speaker placement, room treatment with rugs or wall hangings if needed, then look at cartridges and speakers. I've also got an affordable vintage system with a Rega Planar 3 (Onkyo P306RS preamp, Hitachi HMA 7500 power amp, Paradigm 9SEs).
Around here for a couple of hundred bucks you can buy a pair of Paradigm 7SEs, vintage JBLs, KEFs or others that you could resell if they are not better in your room than your present speakers. That would give you a chance to try out different speakers in your room, assuming you can't borrow some.
Others will no doubt suggest cartridges. I'm using several, including a Sumiko Black Pearl, but my favorite is an older ADC XLM MkIII which others here have praised. I haven't heard the Grados.
Good luck with the experiment!
“The thing about quotes on the Internet is you cannot confirm their validity.” - Abraham Lincoln
What was the salesperson's recommendation?
I'm not familiar enough with you equipment to make one.
"One this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
"what was the salesperson's recommendation?"
I'd like to wait awhile to post the recommendation. I don't want it to bias any suggestions from the inmates.
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