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Hello all, Over the past couple of weeks I have been reading posts here about various makes and models of receivers. Two names tend to pop up more than anyone else, that being Marantz and to a lesser extent McIntosh. I would love to have a classic "real" tube receiver, but which one is best? Fisher comes up often with tube receivers. Solid state is more in line with my disposable income right now, but which is best? I like a full sound, not overly bright, but also rich in detail and range. I like rock, jazz, and classical, so I have got to have my dynamic range!!I think what I want is something with the warmth of tubes, with full fidelity (read that "not dull sounding..actual high frequency response").
So, what will it be..Fisher tube? Marantz 18 or 19 or 2xxx or 3xxx or one of the Macs? HELP...I'm going crazy reading all this (good) stuff. Am I missing any good receivers? And yes, cost is an issue, as I am building a house, and it is a money sponge.
Follow Ups:
Well Tim, as everyone here probablly knows by now I am a Yamaha fan. the best word I have found to describe the CR-n20 series is Transparent - what ever you put in comes out unaltered. I am currently using a CR-820 to drive a pair of Polk Monitors and they seem to like each other. They go for less than they are worth on eBay because everyone there seems to have been brain-washed by Marantz - I have restored both and kept the Yamahas and auctioned the Marantz.As to CD players, due to lack of space, and because the Mitsu was beginning to act up, I wanted a combo DVD/CD. Research seemed to point at Sony until I found that the unit I was looking at was a re-badged Samsung so I bought the Samsung. Unless my ears are failing with age (I'll admit that I never hear the horizontal on the TV on damp days) it sounds, or rather it does not sound, it just passes the CD content through untouched. Like a previous inmate I also put my vinyl collection onto CD, just no room for the Rega in the cabinet.
Rob
Tim, I have had alot of receivers over the years. My two tube receivers were a Fisher 400 and a Fisher 500c. The 400 was new in 1968 and the 500c in 1998 for $20. The 500 was the better of the 2,even 30 years later. Better FM and great sound. I cleaned it up, replaced one 12AX7,two brass caps on the knobs and cleaned up its cabinet. Sold it this spring for 269. Too much stuff. A third system for me---all in an apartment. Still,I miss it. If you like tube sounding stuff, early to mid seventies Pioneer like a SX-727 and the Quad QX-949 are solid state but I like their "tube-like" sound. Have had both, still own the QX-949. Good FM and nice sound through a pair of Dynaco A35's and a pair on mini Radio Shacks.As far as solid state goes, my MAC 2100 receiver was OK,but not thrilling. Its very popular as you can see in stores and on Ebay. Ran it for 2-3 years from 1998 to 2001. It was just OK to me---but its loved by my son. Funny though, my Mac MA6100 intergrated amp is great. Its much better, at least to me. I like the chrome chassis, build quality and sound better. If you like the sound of solid staze, a late seventies Pioneers are really good. I ran an SX-850 for about six months. Lots of bass with good high end. It sounded great with my JBL-L100's. It was not pristene. Its cabinet was laquered. Originally they were oil finished. Sold it for 225. Got another for $175, this weekend with a good cabinet. Like other inmates have said, this unit is from the same period as the SX-1010 and SX-1250. All three are built like tanks with gobs of power. I will have to make a choice, keep the SX-850 or the QX-949 Quad. Both good, but the sound is different for each. The SX-850 is a great unit and I prefer it to my MAC. Much of the fun is choosing. Prices are good on the old Pioneers. I did have a SX-727 this year, in perfect condition and cheap! Got for $90 with freight on Ebay, it required very little work and it was nice. Good luck, prices on the Pioneers are low. the tubed Fishers are going up,up,and up! Good luck. Enjoy the music,Eric
If I've learned anything from hanging around here it's this.You'll never get an agreement on "best" .Another is matching speaker to receiver.For example I matched an HK-930(a very nice receiver) to stacked Advents,Advents-A-25, etc. and didn't like the sound(bloated bass).Same stacked Advents with Sansui 3000a or 5000x sounded excellent.Now, I have the HK-930 with Dahlquist DQM-9 Compacts alone and the sound is magical, a truly great match.I hear the HK-430 is great too.
I have a Rotel RCD-850 that plays CD's very analog like and still works reliably.But I'd have to say more than half the CD players I've picked up at thrift stores break in short order.I'd probably do better at Costco or something like that ,for less than $100.
I'll second tbcblues on the Onkyo and the Pioneer. A special one is the Onkyo TX-7000, the best 80-100 wpc receiver I've had the pleasure to hear. The SX-1010 is also a very fine sounding receiver, & has its adherents.
The 1970s certainly had more than its share of excellent receivers. Pioneer & Onkyo, especially, and very 'overbuilt,' and provide a super value (Onkyo moreso than Pioneer, but the SX-1010 is often a great buy).
Among my several receivers, past & present, the Concept 16.5 is probably my favorite. It combines my favorite aspects of the Pioneer, Onkyo & Sansui into one tremendous package.
Have fun on your hunt!
Depends on how much you have to spend - you can get a really nice Onkyo like the TX-5000 for example, for around $125 tops - or one of my favorites, the pioneer SX-1010, which is 100 watts per channel for around $200 and sometimes less - both of these I feel would compete with any marantz in the same category - just remember, with marantz, which I also really love, you'll be paying a premium due to its "popularity" status - If you don't have some already, I would concentrate more on getting a quality pair of speakers, because that's where the rubber meets the road, so to speak.
I seemed to just come upon on of these beasts. Geezz it's the biggest thing I've ever seen. Looking forward to getting it hooked upto the system and running it through the paces so to speak. It's also a real beauty to look at. It has a real vintage style, almost Marantz mated with a Pioneer look.
charles
The Tx-5000 is what got me started in the vintage hobby. I was hanging out with Pete and others at AR, and everyone was talking about yard-saling, etc. I decided to go out one Saturday morning, and at the last stop of a very dry day, I came upon a very grimy TX-5000. I think I paid 15 bucks!! I cleaned her up, plugged her in, and everything worked!! Did some a/b-ing against my newish NAD receiver, and decided I liked the Onkyo better. (Later sold the NAD when I picked a marantz 2285BD.) You are very right about the styling. What a great sounding unit, too, with very conservative wattage rating. ENJOY!!Dave
PS I think I have a photocopy of the manual and some literature. Let me know if what you have for manuals, and maybe we can trade?? Otherwise, you can just pay postage for it.
Yep, it is as big a 65 wpc receiver as you may find! Very, very nice sounding (written as I gaze over at my TX-5000 and TX-8500 Mk II).
The Onkyos are kinda like undiscovered treasures.
I'd like to hear your listening thoughts after you've had a chance to give 'er a listening.
I just bought a TX-61 on ebay for $51 - haven't got it yet, but it's a biggie too, 60 watts/channel - I used to have one a couple of years ago and was sorry I got rid of it - I think I sold it because I had to stand on my head to change a couple of light bulbs and then the little rubber holders for the lights crumbled to pieces - it was a hassle - but it's one of the more colorful and unique receivers out there - I just hope the seller was right and all the lights work!!! As I recall it doesn't sound a whole lot different than the TX-5000.
I'm going to put it into action in a day or two and I'll post my findings. It's going to be fun comparing this to some Dynaco tube gear and a large pile of Marantz units.
charles
I recall hearing some Onkyo gear at a shop near Copper Mountain, CO when I was at a conference (no place for a flat-lander like me) and recall that they did sound very good. At that time I had never heard of the marque and was impressed.Rob
All this depends on speaker match of course but for the money and what you are looking for I would go with theMarantz 2230, 2270 both are great, warm full but the 2270 has a better tuner and the 2230 could be had for under $80 at times.
Sansui 4000 or in that class, new to my collection but WOW was I surprised at the vintage sound and excellent tuner.
Sherwood S7300,S7900, no I don't have these but soon to be added to the collection. Amazing this sells for less then $75. Don't be fooled by the low price.
Pioneer SX737,727. I remember these as a kid only. Great sound but Pioneer did have it's "house" sound but very good. Fair tuners.
Marantz 18,19. I think you are getting out of your price range. The 19 never sells for less than $500 but the 18 goes for about $200. One caveat these are some of the finest receivers made but need proper speaker matching and ALWAYS in some need of servicing. If you are not electronic savy or don't have the funds to keep one going pass for now. In other works it's hard to get a good one working well. but otherwise the jewel of receivers.
Post your price range and what speakers you have.
As for the CDP I personally wouldn't get a older CDP. It's like a VCR when it goes it goes big time. I don't think there was any magic in vintage CDP's so buy a new CHEAP NAD or cd/dvd player. Ask around but don't get sucked into the cdp debates. it's an endless battle of good and evil. If I had the money I would buy a Ah Tjoeb, $600 but I don't so go cheap. The technology has changed so much on these that you can get an inexpensive one to work just as well as some of the fantastically expensive units. - Oh boy I see the cars pulling up in front of my house now with the angry mob forming - gotta hide!
charles
Hey thanks! I currently have (as my "vintage" setup) an older r/s analog receiver, can't remember the model#, tuner is fair, but the amp section is strong. Can't really listen comfortably over 1/4 volume. I have an old cd player, vintage 1984 or so, but is getting more troublesome, and have a pair of old Pioneer cs-99a's, which sounds great, but seem very directional. They give a rather small sound stage. I guess that it's according to what it is, but I guess I could spend up to $300.00 or so on a receiver, but at that price, I would want something "top notch" and collectible. What about the early Mac receivers? Any of them good?
Tim, i'm a newbie as well - so put this post in that perspective -Based on what it sounds like your needs are - $300.00 for a one box unit that will handle the amplification, the pre-amp controls (treble, bass, balance, etc.) and tuner section -- aka a "receiver" -- you need to decide if you want to go with a tube or solid state based unit -- not sure, but think that tube reciever selection is very limited - also with your cost expectations, you seem to be in line with 70's - 80's solid state receivers - i'm sure you could find a nice one -- i would do as much research as you can, in this forum and elsewhere online and try to find something with a well regarded tuner section as you listen to so much FM radio -- perhaps when the budgetary constraints ease up you could eventually explore getting vintage "seperates" if you will, with something with a dedicated, stand-alone tuner -- which if setup and cared for properly, should far surpass most receiver tuner sections in sound quality and signal strength. it also would be more like an "investment" if you sink $$$ into something that seems to have some market value (e.g. if you eventually brought it to a tech who improved the tuning section on your receiver -- if it has limited appeal on the used audio market, despite your mention of it having an overhauled tuning section which works great, you may in the long run, lose money in the deal -- this could be $$$ well spent to you - but if you get hit with "upgraditis", it'd be nice to get your value back out of it).
As far as marantz and macintosh, the prices vary from category to category (amp, tuner, preamp, integrated amp, etc) but the way ebay and current factors have it, you couldn't even rent the use of most of this gear for a week for $300.00 -- although you are correct in assuming that certain vintage brands will generally only continue to gain value over time -- e.g. the aforementioned M&M boys especially, also harmon kardon, Fisher, HH Scott, etc. -- that said if its well regarded and gorgeous aesthetically, its gonna cost you. Also keep an eye on ebay auctions for things that may be on your wish list and see what they sell for and what seems like an appropriate range to spend before jumping in.
Pay attention to posts that mention compatibility factors with the speakers your gonna use -- a poor matching system is a bummer and easily avoidable with a few polite, well-timed inquiries --
Be careful with vintage gear though -- if you like warm sound, great aesthetics and the satisfaction that you're listening to something resurrected out of the past -- you can get hooked!
Lastly, your gonna hear all sorts of conflicting opinions about stuff, use your best judgement to sift through it and find the info. that's useful to you -- and above all, be nice to these guys -- without their experience, us newbies would be lost in the woods --
Yeah homeslice , you're definately right about the plethora of knowledge here.
As also being a young buck noob here as well, I have been recieved kindly aswell.
I have gotten a lot of great inifo from these guys ,that I wouldn't know of or where to gather it if it wasnt for this site.
I really am cathing a little flak from the mrs. she thinks that I am adicted to this . How right she is !!, but she has even gotten a kick out of hearing old equipment being brought up from the past and giving new light .
I am totally hooked .. well enjoy!!,,,,,,chris
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I have a Sereotech 1200 receiver (McIntosh budget receiver of the late 70's) which is incredible sounding - it's comparable in design to a Mac 1900 receiver - Stereotechs are hard to come by because they didn't sell well and were quickly discontinued, but trust me, they are awesome - they only come up on ebay 3-4 times a year - I got mine for $200 on ebay a couple of years ago and well worth it - A nice Mac 1900 usually goes for $300+ - never owned one but assuming it's just as (or more) awesome than the Stereotech. I've also owned a Mac 4275 and a Mac 4300, which are more modern receivers - the 4275 was not that impressive but the 4300 is the flagship and a great machine - but you'll pay over $1000 for a used one on ebay - and honestly when you compare the sound to other lower cost vintage units it's not worth the money unless you're going for prestige. Like I said before, you'd be better off spending the big bucks for speakers.
Oh, by the way, my source is 50% FM and 50% CD. Is there a recomendation for an older cd player that sounds "less" like a cd and more analog'ish'?
Tim D, if you can find a pitch controlled Denon cd player in good working condition, it will emulate that analog sound you're searching for. Especially from the headphone jack. Have a decade-plus auld DCM-450. During first year of ownership, the spindle went wacky. Told the repair guy that the pitch control got maximum workout. So he fitted it with a pro-quality spindle. It's been rockin' ever since. A Denon receiver might also foot your bill as well.
Any cheap $120 SAMSUNG/PIONEER with a little bit of tweaking will leave old CDP in the dust. Perhaps even Sony SACD if you are lucky.
Add ART/DIO DAC ($125) sometime later and you have amazing sound for $250.Good old CDP in less than $100 are not that numerous, often are overpriced. And they could be at the end of their useful life.
If you insist on old CDP, I'll would look for Philips/Magnavox 650, Adcom 575, older Rotel. NAD is not reliable.
For pride of ownership (and couple of C's more), Cambridge CD3, Pioneer PD-65, Marantz 94 and Philips 880
Frankly, i haven't been able to tell much difference in the sound quality of CD players - for me it's pretty much a mechanical/reliablity issue- I'm sure there are better sounding ones out there, but the differences have to be subtle I would think - I generate a lot of CD-R's off my computer's CD recorder, so I have to have a player that will handle these, and some of the higher end players don't like 'em. I've found that Sony CD players will play just about anything and are pretty reliable, especially the carousel type. Single CD players with slide-out trays (older yamaha models for example) tend to need belt replacement so be careful if you buy one of them used - and stay away from the cartridge-type cd players like pioneer or kenwood - very bad design (my 2cents worth).
I would tend to agree with the posts on older CD players (the technology has come very far and the prices have substantially been lowered in the last ten years). Although I'm more or less an analog fan (Pioneer SX-1050 receiver, Pioneer SG-9800 EQ, Pioneer SR-202 Reverb, Akai GM-X10 Metal Cassette, Technics SL1800 & SLD2 TT's driving a pair of Rectilinear 3's and/or EPI M-400's). My early 90's Sony CDP-C225 was also in the mix of the analog system and sounded great (it even sounded great when hooked up to my 1962 Voice of Music integrated amp), but upon finding an early 90's mint Sony TA-N80ES digital amp locally for $100 (have seen them go as high as $500 on e-pay and retailed for around $1800 new) which I couldnt pass up, I decided I wanted to separate the digital from the analog and have two systems, or three, ie strictly vacuum tube, SS analog, then digital (hey if I'm going to play digital CD's I might as well do it right). Kind of like having three separate systems spanning the technology of 40 years. Well I found a Sony CD player which is the mate to the Sony amp, that is the Sony CDP-C79ES. Very high end unit and in mint cosmetic and operational shape, hardly been used in its 10 year life. Whats great about the Sony amp is that it has a variable signal input, ie it was designed so a variable signal CD player can be hooked up directly to the amp, thereby eliminating the need for a pre-amp. At a whopping 220 WPC driven into 8 ohms, this should be an interesting combination driving digital signal thru a pair of EPI M-400's column speakers. Price wise both the Sony amp and CD player sold as a pair for around $2500, so I dont feel too bad on aquiring this combo for less than $300.
I have had a lot of used cd players pass through my hands, and many of them have just needed a new belt for the door, that's it. I have found that sonys are good, even the 5 disc carosels from 1988 and up. Run like hell from the cartridge models and run towards the higher end sony, marantz and nakamichi (esp. the cd player 2 (however it has a very long belt for the door and is tricky to replace))never did like the sound of yamahas though. But the real point is NEVER pay more than 30-35 bucks for a old used cd player. You never know when it will go. If you're gonna spend even $100 you're most likely better off with a new technology player that will play dvd's and mp3's too...
--Matt
Ah! On the CD player, I can offer a recommendation: an old Rotel RCD-855. I have one, use it daily (with a vintage tube integrated amp), and simply love it. Got it off eBay for something like $102-103 including remote. A "classic" in its day, the 855 has a DAC that's outdated yet considered one of the "most musical" ever...to the extent that (I'm pretty sure this is correct - read about it on the Asylum) a couple of very small manufacturers now offer DIY tubed CD player kits that utilize the same well-thought-of DAC. A newer model that's basically the same thing is the RCD-955. These units are stout; by current standards, built like the proverbial tank. By way of comparison, I've had a couple of NAD 502s, hugely lauded in their day (coming after the RCD-855) that were lightweight, trouble-prone and definitely not as satisfying sonically. I'm running a Homegrown Diva silver interconnect between the RCD-855 and my amp, and it's been a terrific upgrade to the Radio Shack "Gold" IC I had previously, so I'd have to say the Rotels respond well to good cables.
They're also cleanly styled and relatively free of gimmicks, such as row upon row of tiny buttons...sort of like a good-performing older Volvo among more plasticky competitors.Sold yet? I'm just very happy with this unit, that's all. Good luck!
Scott
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