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The story begins in 1967 in a friend's home. I still had mono gear, but wanted to go stereo. My friend had this great sounding system. What kind of speakers are those,how much are they, and where did you get them. That was a Friday evening. The next day I was at a shop in downtown Cleveland listening to speakers. My friend had KLH 17's, and I found I liked those best. Wisely, the salesman asked how the rest of my system was. I need a lot of new stuff, said I. Replied the salesman, you might want to look at the KLH Model 20 Compact System, it uses the same speakers. And he gave me a lot of KLH literature to look over. One item was a reprint of a review of the Model 20, and in it, they explained that it was such a standout for the price was that KLH had engineered the pieces to match so they worked together synergistically.
That was a an epiphany for me. I realized for the first time that a stereo system was, in fact, a System, and that one needed to use Systems Engineering Principals to put it together. Well, I thought, I'm and engineer, and I understand the principals of systems engineering. The Model 20 is nice; but has some limitations. It costs $400; but if I'm willing to spend $800 carefully, I should be able to reduce the limitations in several key areas. In other words, a Super Model 20.
That was pretty naïve; and I quickly found I didn't know as much about it as I needed to. And so I started on my quest to build the Super Model 20.
Over the years, the technology changed, the cost of living index inflated my budget, and I learned - often the hard way. And things like the CD changed my specifications for system content. But two things remained constant: the requirement for systems engineering; and the need to get the most bang for my bucks. Although the building of systems over the years has run up a very substantial tab in total.
At this point, I have two complete systems in the den. The primary system is comprised of an Adcom GTP-400 tuner preamp, an Adcom GFA 545 II power amp, a Rotel RCD971 CD player, and a pair of DIY 10", 2 way speakers using SEAS drivers. Accessories are 12 gauge speaker cables, 12" DIY interconnects, and a pair of 15" stands. I have a bit under $2000 in it, thanks to buying things used and some DIY work, and well under $800 in 1969 dollars.
If you look at my comments and equipment choices in earlier posts, you can probably see my involvement with the Super Model 20.
I do admit to going off on much more elaborate and expensive systems a time or two; but I've always come back to the Super Model 20 quest.
Jerry
Follow Ups:
I started with an interest in electronics, experimenting, building kits etc., and a parallel interest in listening to music. They merged and I started building speakers, and building and repairing amplifiers etc. For a few years had a job doing the service for a small chain of Hifi stores. I got out of the audio field, but had some pretty good equipment from the stores, Ohm F's, Accuphase, Crown, Harmon Kardon, Scott, JBL, Audible Illusions that stayed relatively static.
Don't remember what triggered it, but bought and upgraded an old PAS and the resulting difference in my system was eye opening and it got me back into playing with the equipment. One of the first things I bought were ESL-63's which allowed me to hear a lot more detail than I was used to and drove me to try and tweak to my tastes different pieces of equipment.
The other driving force is I'm almost always listening to music. My main career allowed me to listen to low volume classical as I worked.
That's pretty much where I began in 1953. I wanted to be able to listen to music, and we had nothing. But our TV had a jack for a record player with a high output cartridge. My Dad got me a VM changer with a Sonotone ceramic cartridge, and then we had music. That was followed by a Grommes LJ (little jewel) three tube kit, and a Heath 8", 2 way system I bought from my buddy for $15. It wasn't all that good; but it did get me started. As mentioned in my first post in this thread, I had the big eye opener in 1967-69. In between was an engineering degree, and a lot of experience and learning in the aero-space business vibration testing labs.
I'm actually a mechanical engineer; but the vibration testing business is mostly electronics, so along the way, I learned a lot of EE, and in my last job, I spent my lunch hours fixing folk's equipment. So I function at the level of a decent electronics tech.
Jerry
I think a normal person would at some point reflect on WHY and HOW they got into this hobby.
For me, my full circle trip turned out to be the Dynaco St-70 and a Marantz 250 power amp. Had a lot of stuff and tried a lot of stuff. Spent a lot of money and now I am ending up tweaking out my original point of origin.
So for me MY epiphany was when you sent me that wonderful Sherwood. It got me back on the right track. And baby was I on the wrong track before that. At times I did enjoy the ride. but most of the time it was just expensive.
I never fell to deeply into the speaker trap - than God! Like amps aren't enough.
was led initially by a passionate drive in my teens to "hear it all" which I was able to do by befriending a couple of audio reviewers I met at an audio store where I hung out. They became long term mentors for both the exploration of music and the state of the recording art.
I confess that I still enjoy hearing the absolute transparency and more lifelike soundstage of the main system, but as I get older I do find myself enjoying the Advents in the garage more than I used to.
Especially since I replaced my CD players with streamers fed by a common music server where all my (digital) music is just a heartbeat away and controlled by iPhone or iPad. I don't miss shuffling shiny disks in and out of jewel boxes and transports one iota. :)
I confess that I still enjoy hearing the absolute transparency and more lifelike soundstage of the main system, but as I get older I do find myself enjoying the Advents in the garage more than I used to.
That's what's happened with me..I have the Martin Logan CLXs set up next door down the basement driven by the heavily upgraded HK Citation 2s run in parallel, along with a pair of ML Descent subs. As incredible and breathtaking as it sounds,I get more fun and enjoyment out of playing with my smaller amps,driving the Newform 645 ribbons or my AR3as or countless other speakers like the KLH 17s..I haven't even hooked up my Angel horns lately.
The Martin Logans and McShaned Citations are incredibly magnificent and that basically takes all the fun out of it.This is why I wanted to add regulation to the 12BY7s just to see what it would do.I also run the ALtec 1570s on them which is all triode other than 5881 drivers but I always seem to go back to the Deuces for whatever reason.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Thank you for this story. It's always fun to read about others adventures. I took a similar path, over and over and over. I could write a book on the subject....
Since I started the odyssey in the late 60's, I've been at it, on and off, for 47 years. I got it started with a mixed bag of mis-matched speakers(eventually a matched pair of KLH 17's in 1971), a Dynaco PAS3X kit, a used Dynaco Mk II amp, a total rebuild of an Eico HF20 into a 48 watt power amp (a long story in itself), and a used Dual 1215 changer with an Empire 888P cartridge.
By 1970 I had a pair of MK II's. Then into solid state receivers, and a variety of speakers. I have kept a list of all the stuff I've had, and it goes on and on. Some systems were an improvement, some were a step back, and most were just sideways moves.
I also kept a running commentary on the Super Model 20 specifications, and kept track of what $800 in 1969 dollars had inflated to.
The original specifications called for 105 dB peak levels in a 3000 cubic foot room of average damping in order to be able to calculate power requirements. It also called for a four piece system - two speakers, electronics (a receiver, or the equivalent), and a record player. Frequency response of 40 Hz to 15,000 Hz +/- 3 dB. I later found that the peak levels and a 3000 cubic foot room needed more power and more speaker power handling than I could afford on my $800 budget. Also, my initial specifications didn't include any criteria for imaging. The key specification is that the system had to be "systems engineered".
Today, I have exceeded all the original specifications, I'm well under the cost limit ($800 in 1969 is over $5000 in today's dollars); CD players have replaced LP, and imaging specifications have been added and refined. And I have two complete systems that both meet the intent of the quest.
Can I go further? Sure! Will I? Probably not, except for maintenance. I'm 78 now and my hearing will decline more and more as I age, the sound is the best I've had to date within the confines of The Quest, I no longer have any foam surrounds to replace, and the components in the two systems are 100% interchangeable, so I have a lot of backup. Time to just listen to what I have while I can still fully enjoy it. Unless something happens, I'm done!!!
I'll still be around here on the Vintage Asylum from time to time, as I enjoy the discussions. I still have my instruments and RTA (the systems not only sound good and image well; but they also measure very well). I got my grandson started with his own system, my ex-son-in-law who is still my friend is an avid audio enthusiast, and I have a friend in the city who is into this stuff. So there is still life after The Quest ends.
At this point, I would like to comment that over the years, I have had some much more elaborate and expensive systems than The Quest would allow. I did not find them significantly more engaging or accurate than my current Quest systems; except maybe in the deepest bass or the ability to play loudly.
Jerry
Hi Jerry,
With the dwindling supply of good vintage gear, and the level of quality that I have reached, I don't expect any huge changes in my system. I will be switching and comparing stuff I already have. Due to their temporary nature, I will always be changing cartridges. I have collected quite a few. I will probably buy a DAC at some point. I do plan to experiment with cables. I think improvement can be made, but I am expecting only subtile differences there. I have all the parts to resurrect my Michell Hydraulic Reference. While I am expecting it to sound different form my Linn LP12, they are both very good tables, so again I don't expect a night and day difference. The visual difference will be striking, however. So like you, I am not expecting any huge leaps forward. My software collection has become insane with the vast number if cheap and free CDs available, so with my hardware and software, the main effort will be to cull. It is now time to enjoy the music, which is why I think both of us really go into this hobby!
Dave
I went through a similar experience with the Model 20. The hi-fi store where I worked after college sold them, and I debated whether the $400 tab (less my discount) was worth it.
I ended up building a Dyna SCA-35 (MUCH easier if you could have bypassed the tone controls), matched with an AR turntable, and, eventually, Dyna A25 speakers. I had a component system, and I've had dozens since, including the A25 several times.
I agree it's a quest, and therein lies the fun. Expensive perfection is not my game; biggest bang for the buck is what I usually prefer.
The Model 20 speakers use the KLH 17 tweeter and crossover; but the woofer is a 4 ohm version of the KLH 17's. I'd like to get a pair of those woofers to try, as I believe it an adaptation for SS electronics, where the 17's were definitely designed for tube gear.
Properly set up and with well matched components, relatively modest gear can sound remarkably good. But that's the whole nature of the Quest, isn't it?
Jerry
LOL! I have your entire first system now. I did try the SCA-35 with the A-25's, but did not play classical music loud enough for my tastes. Simon and Garfunkel sounded great though! People did not play their systems nearly as loud when you had your set up.
Dave
True, systems weren't played as loud. The power race hadn't quite begin yet, and the Crown DC-300 or Mac 2105 were about the most powerful amps I knew of. The owners of the store each had the Mac 3500 (350wpc), but that wasn't common.
Good sound systems also.
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