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Read it and wonder why some tweaks are looked upon as being "voodoo" or a "bunch of hooey" in this case. Sean
>
Follow Ups:
Just read the original properly, I am now converted by this bit "We are in the process of introducing some new devices that, when attached to audio equipment, manipulate the equipment into permanent beneficial activity. This is achieved by forcing the equipment into a 'present' space-time status. This prohibits the equipment from communicating any adverse patterns from it's traumatic past." My hifi equipment has been showing signs of needing psychotherapy for some time, and these devices will save me a fortune on fees, even if they do cost a bomb.
EEEK!
Hold your fingers out straight and press your first and second finger knuckles together. If your fingers aren't too fat you can make a really thin slit between your fingers.Then, hold it up to the light and press your eye against your fingers. Look into the light and pay attention to the vertical lines of your finger boundaries. When the gap closes small enough you'll start seeing multiple lengthwise lines develop.
This is diffraction of electromagnetic radiation aka light.
(You might think you're seeing your own eyelashes but hold your fingers sideways and you'll notice the lines go horizontal.)
Andrew
This isn't from your eyes trying to focus so near the slit,
right?
no, it demonstrates that even tho light is composed of particles (photons) light acts as wave - that is why you see interferfence pattern. Same with electrons: wave-particle duality.
This is trippy too.
yes, I have seen the Hubble site and the photo that is all galaxies w/ lensing. You're right, that IS trippy, quite unbelievable, i just sent it to some people the other day! In fact, there are so many great photos from Hubble, IMO, it is a little difficult to digest it all. Another site I like a lot, but you have to search a little to find the good stuff, is the LIGO site at http://ligo.caltech.edu/ - that is the "search for gravity waves" experiment.
/
You could loose your everlasting soul if you try the PWB products.
close minded people.it must be quite obvious and comforting to you that something cannot exist if we do not have the necessary means to test/detect its existence.
your collective minds circa not too long ago --> you say there are tiny things called atoms that make-up everything ?
hogwash !!!!
show me even just 1 !!
how wonderful to be so certain.
reminds me of ostriches and sticking their heads in the sand.
ostrich --> gee......if i cant see it it really must not be there.
the really funny thing about this post is that we just watched monty pythons flying circus - the meaning of life - lastnight !!
lolololololo
the closed mind is a detriment to ongoing science.
too many instances of the impossible-proved-to-be-fact exist.
there is solid reason for the saying --> truth is stranger than fiction.
Using a scanning electron microscope, the individual atoms of a piece of silicon have been resolved, about 1996 or so. Just a thought.
[Disclaimer: My training is in physics, and if that invalidates my opinion to you, do not read any further.]I find reading PWB beyond absurd. I think it's safe to say I have been exposed to the basic accepted theories of quantum, worked through dozens of wave equations, perturbation theories, variational principles, and ridiculously grueling integrals that mathematica 4.0's poor little kernel can't hope to solve, and it is utterly clear that PWB tries to use concepts of physics that they don't expect audiophiles to understand, by sprinkling physics buzzwords amongst totally ridiculous phrases. They have absolutely no understanding of particle/wave nature, or any clue as to what an observable is. Their description of the double slit experiment as a "paradox" that has defeated "scientific investigations to resolve" tells me they've probably never read ANYTHING on modern physics or wave mechanics. Another nag: it can be proven using group theory alone that physics is independant of coordinate system or formulation. What if I want to analyze my listening room in momentum space? or configuration space? We no longer have an x-coordinate! What do I write on my CDP then?. In physics, we often say that "if you can't explain it to someone else, then you don't understand it." It is certainly more than clear to me that they don't understand LOTS! There is so much wrong here, I just don't know where to begin.
They're trying to explain how their revolutionary products revise and improve upon conventional physics and science that they can't even begin to describe properly. Outside of the physics, the bad science, and all the prejudices of my "conventional thought", I think it's fair to say you can't call something wrong if you have absolutely no idea what it is.
The indiscriminately open mind is incapable of performing true science.It's a continuum, of course. It just happens that PWB's stuff lies just a *wee* bit on the silly side.
Andrew
AndrewH wrote:The indiscriminately open mind is incapable of performing true science.
Yes. It's one thing to have an open mind. Another to have a mind so open your brains slosh out onto the floor.
se
hehehehhehhehe.I just scraped mine up... snnniiiiffff.
Well I just think we need to *expand* our minds if ya' know what I mean?? : ^ ))Mike
Maybe that's what's on those PWB "rainbow foils", eh ???? Thanks for cluing us in, Mike. All this time i thought that those things were just for decoration.... SeanPS.... I was in your neck of the woods today. Not real close but it was Ohio ( near Cinci ). Drove out there to pick up a TT & Arm with a ton of "goodies" included. Wanna guess what it is ????
Hey, why didn't you stop by? I got some extra stuff you coulds be haulin' back with you Sean.What kind of table did you get?
Mike
Actually, i quite enjoy "picking up" YOUR garbage : ) Time to clear out the basement again ??? Keep stacking it up, i'll be coming back that way for the Dayton Hamfest again. I don't know if i can get all that "TAD junk" into my car though.... : )As mentioned, i was down somewhere between Dayton and Cinci. I left my house about 3 hours later than expected, so needless to say, it was pedal to the metal the whole way there and back. Of course i took time to stop for some "Cinci Style 5 Way Chili" though. MMMMMM.........
As to the table and arm, i ended up with ( insert drum roll here and expect to hear something that just "might" be familiar to you...) a Sota Sapphire with vacuum, brand new upgraded suspension, new platter, factory dustcover, an ET II arm, the standard factory armboard along with a custom upgraded Sota armboard specifically made for the ET II, an extra arm tube & headshell for the ET II, a "big" vacuum pump with a large external reservior, a "tank" of a pressure regulator, a large aluminum "jig" for setting up the arm, a set of "tip toes" and the factory feet, and a few other odds and ends along with the factory literature and shipping crates for all of the gear mentioned. As usual, i ended up with a GREAT deal and got to meet another "O-hi-O" audiophile that made it well worth the trip.
I was hoping to have more time to spend over there, but things just didn't work out that way. I would have liked to hook up with Steve, my buddy Lou and maybe even swing by your joint, but time or scheduling was not working with me on this trip. I wasn't even sure i was going until i got a phone call at 6:30 this morning from the seller.
I'll have to give you a call sometime soon to ask for "tips & tricks". I can't believe how many "adjustements" this damn arm has on it. Now i know why i've heard people say that it is the hardest arm made to get set up correctly. Sean
>
,,,I left my house about 3 hours later than expected, so needless to say, it was pedal to the metal the whole way there and back.Hehehe, I can see you now, 120+ pass one of those prick Ohio Staties, with 400 watts crankin' through your speakers AND your antenna!
,,,,, Of course i took time to stop for some "Cinci Style 5 Way Chili" though. MMMMMM.........
Ohhhhhh is that shit good! Bet your girlfriend has the window open tonight!
,,,,,,,,As to the table and arm, i ended up with ( insert drum roll here and expect to hear something that just "might" be familiar to you...) a Sota Sapphire with vacuum, brand new upgraded suspension, new platter, factory dustcover, an ET II arm, the standard factory armboard along with a custom upgraded Sota armboard specifically made for the ET II, an extra arm tube & headshell for the ET II, a "big" vacuum pump with a large external reservior, a "tank" of a pressure regulator, a large aluminum "jig" for setting up the arm, a set of "tip toes" and the factory feet, and a few other odds and ends along with the factory literature and shipping crates for all of the gear mentioned. As usual, i ended up with a GREAT deal and got to meet another "O-hi-O" audiophile that made it well worth the trip.
AWESOME! Sounds great! The local Goodwill stores are going to love you. Ten bucks goes a long way at Goodwill!
......I'll have to give you a call sometime soon to ask for "tips & tricks". I can't believe how many "adjustements" this damn arm has on it. Now i know why i've heard people say that it is the hardest arm made to get set up correctly. Sean
>It's a wonderful arm. The key is to get the wire routed right and getting it perfectly level. I quit cussing at mine awhile ago.
Mike
.
How's the baby doing?Love that name!
Party on!
Mike
I just want to say that I sent PWB an email, and magically, a few days later, I got a free sample of rainbow foil. Haven't evaluated it yet, but I congratulate them on being willing to send me a free sample. Don't argue what you haven't tried, no matter how ridiculous it seems. That being said, DBT should eliminate the effects of the red stuff, because if it works, it's precisely because the user is aware of it.
The old "my perception is reality" nonsense.If you believe in "INSERT BUNKUM OF YOUR CHOICE HERE", then the "INSERT BUNKUM OF YOUR CHOICE HERE" works.
If you don't believe, then it CANNOT work, and it's all your fault. And your being narrow- minded, you non- believing,sceptical,"how dare you doubt my experience" son of a bitch.
The following is completely irrelevant:
Tiger Woods was getting out of his Benz convertible at a golf course, and some tees fell out of his pocket.A lady passing by said " Aren't you that Tiger fellow- you're famous aren't you?!! I've seen you on TV, I think you are wonderful!"
"Why, thank you" he replied, and bent down to pick up the tees.
"What are those?" she asked.
"They're my tees"
She looked a little perplexed, obviously not a golf follower.
"I use them to rest my balls on when I drive" he explained.
She hesitated a little..." My,..er..those Germans think of everything"
John wrote:> The old "my perception is reality" nonsense.
Hummmmmm. Isn't "stereo" in and of itself a percieved phenomena?
> If you believe in "INSERT BUNKUM OF YOUR CHOICE HERE", then the "INSERT BUNKUM OF YOUR CHOICE HERE" works.
If you don't believe, then it CANNOT work, and it's all your fault. And your being narrow- minded, you non- believing,sceptical,"how dare you doubt my experience" son of a bitch.A number of years ago, I had a couple of reviewers from Positive Feedback magazine over at my home, trying out various DACs (PS Audio Super Link, Theta Pro Prime, and a battery powered Audio Alchemy DAC In The Box).
I also had a bunch of DIY Mapingo 1.5 inch squares stuck all over the walls/ceiling.
One of the reviewers (a future tweeks editor) went to the bathroom. I took down the majority of the Mapingo. Everything else was left the same (including volume). Immediately, when he came back into the room he asked if we had switched out DACs, as it sounded "completely different".
I can't so easliy explain it away.
Cheers,
-Steve
Hi Steve,The "Bunkum" I was referring to was not acoustic treatments to listening room surfaces such as the Mapingo, however minute.
And yes, the "Stereo" effect is created by the processing of otic input by our brain, as is sight which turns our optic image upside down and infers 3D and distance etc.
This is entirely different to changing your attitude towards your equipment by placing "special" stickers on them.
I have placed a sticker on my dog's butt which says "This Smells Nice", but so far it has only worked on other dogs.
My experiments will continue.
If cornered, I will post more bad jokes.
Regards,
John
John wrote:> I have placed a sticker on my dog's butt which says "This Smells Nice", but so far it has only worked on other dogs.
Have you tried the reverse "This Smells Like Dogsh*t"? That might get some takers! ;-)
> experiments will continue.
Hope to hear more of them. BTW, are you receiving government grants for these "studies"?
> If cornered, I will post more bad jokes.
I can't wait! :-)
Cheers,
-Steve
Sean - You may have sorted out a problem perplexing many of the Vinyl Asylum guys lately. They have been discussing how taking the sticker _off_ a tonearm weight will make it sound better.
I will have to ask them if the writing on the sticker said "Heavyweight = bad"
;~)Cheers
John K
This guy's worse than Giz! I wouldn'a thought it possible.
This is incredible. I'm ordering mine.I'm writing:
Mr. Happy > 12"
on everything damned thing my wife even thinks about touching. Her shoes, her car, her purse, her credit cards...possibilities are endless.
Basking in new-found studliness,
The little voices told me that soap is the hallmark of civilization.
But, instead of Mr. Happy > 12" it reads
Mr. Happy to be here at this momentous occasion, wishing you enjoyment > 12" in circumferenceMy problem is that although it's terrible long, it's scarely as big around as a beer can. Imagine my embarassment.
nt
nt
Looks like a theory initially put forth by Professor Irwin Corey on the eve of his first joint convergence. It is almost as profound as Einsteins Theory of Relativity, which Albert describes in far simpler terms!
Absolutely, disgustingly, bad.Out of high school I knew enough physics to know that this guy is just spewing bullshit. (And I've done well enough in my English classes to recognize when another is employing the fine art of bullshitting).
I understand that science is just one way of looking at the world, and the spirituality and whatnot are also valid ways of understanding the world. However, making calls to spirituality to explain quantum physics and then apply these explanations to relatively well-understood electrical and mechanical engineering is... I dunno.
Not all science is of equal merit.
Andrew
on Quantum Mechanics and how it may someday answer the question, "What is human consciousness?"
They had gathered several leading Quantum and Psych. researchers together (a real who's who) and the conversation was very interesting. Not sure I got the whole story as I tuned into this about halfway through, but the implication was that there is a potential relationship between the two. Wish I knew more.
The biggest proponent of a quantum mechanical explanation of consciousness is Roger Penrose, one of the top physicists of our time. His theory that some sort of quantum mechanical processes are occuring in the microtubules of our neurons is so far out it goes against all accepted science in the fields that are closest to the study of consciousness (neurobiology, neuropsychology, cognitive psychology, philosophy of mind etc.).He should stick to physics, or else spend more time studying neuroscience and reviewing the philosophical literature before making grand proclamations about such a hot-button topic as consciousness. He is using his reputation in a completely unrelated field, trying to cross over. I can't blame him because consciousness and cognitive neuroscience are the among most exciting academic studies occuring (hence my majoring in cog neuro).
Try reading "Shadows of the Mind" and "Emporer's New Mind" [I think that's the title of the second book]. They're great as a review of physics and provocative in their musings about consciousness. Unfortunately his non-physics ideas don't hold up to scrutiny by the more established academics. (The Churchlands wrote one of the better reviews and Daniel Dennett has some choice things to say).
Andrew
I don't think Penrose was trying to use his reputation to cross- over into acompletely unrelated field. Consciousness, and the involvement of an observer in an experiment at the quantum level, are related. There aren't many books on quantum physics or cosmology that do not touch upon other areas of science, or philosophy and theology for that matter. His credentials in physics and mathematics certainly qualify him to discuss AI (or its weaknesses), Turing machines etc. which I thought was the point to his book.I agree that his hypothesis that consciousness exists on a quantum level is controversial, but a lot more reasonable than rainbow tape on your audio gear !!
I will now try mind-control meditation on those pesky electrons in my interconnects to get them to behave nicely!
Ommmmmmmmm...........
Best wishes
That's true. I stated it a little too harshly. How about this: I think that his reputation from physics lended more credence to his meandering thoughts on consciousness than they would deserve if standing on their own.This isn't really my opinion either -- Daniel Dennett stated it first and probably better.
Andrew
Some relationship to Andersenīs tale
You are right: itīs "Emperorīs new mind", paraphrasing Andersenīs title. Iīll be more careful next time.Regards
Thanks, sounds interesting. I will check out the local Borders and see what's available.
Dave Clark
audiomusings
Sean, it just shows how our pre-concieved notions of things change what we hear. This is a very funny yet factual article. They are using nothing but suggestion and calling it quantum physics! We see the effects of these quantum physics posted hear at AA all the time!Blind tests and logic will wash this crap down the crapper.
Mike
although you are supposed to sense its presence in the room somehow the fact is that i did not.a healer friend of mine that says he is very sensitive to such things is willing to do a blind test with multiple containers either containing a piece of foil or not.
i agree that what pwb says is freakin out there but no more so than the ghost experiences that i have had and 1 of them was witnessed simultaneously by my dog and my cousin.
what this taught me is that i know nothing about anything.
stop and consider that although science knows how to use magnets and wires to "produce" electricity we still dont know what a magnetic line of force is !
and we dont actually "produce" electricity we just coax --> 4 : to manipulate with great perseverance
and usually with considerable effort
toward a desired state or activityfire to burn> <---
it to be here by physically/mechanically moving some magnets and wires around !!same goes for adhesives.
we know a lot about how to make things sticky and what things are sticky etc. but science still cannot explain why things stick !!
you can take any 2 materials and with enough force get them to stick to each other !!
and what about kirlian photography ?
and amputees getting phantom pains and having their amputated nervous system get mapped somewhere else on their body so that their brain feels a phantom foot itch and the amputee has to scratch their chest to calm it !!??
i know you may say -- well thats biological and the other is metaphysical blah blah blah -- the fact is that they are 1 and the same.
the cellular activity that drives the biological brain is powered by molecules comprised of atoms containing electromagnetic forces !!
electromagnetism knows no boundaries.
nuf sed.
It may be why my amp hums when I get to close to it.
How do you know what your dog saw?I'm interested, because I'm sure my dogs turn on the television after I've gone to bed and watch those TV evangelists.
I'd just like to prove it before I take the remote away from them.
my cousin and i were sitting downstairs at around 10pm and the dog started barking very viciously on the second level.because the front door is also on the second level and it was summer and the door was open but screen-door shut we assumed someone was walking-up the drive towards the house.
the dog continued to bark viciously and started coming down the stairs backwards! and snapping/snarling/barking at something in front of him.
we thought it was a neighbor coming-in and teasing the dog.
the dog continued down the stairs snapping/snarling/barking with his ass-end down low and front-legs stiff and looking-up at something we could not see.
then the dog is on the same level we are --we are sitting on the couch -- and keeps backing-up from the stairs then pivots and starts advancing perpendicular to us from the left and about 6' away and still barking/snapping/snarling.
my cousin and i are a little confused and starting to freak.
a very strong and localized sulphur smell passes before us as the dog follows behind it snapping/snarling/barking.
its a warm summer night - tshirts and shorts - and all of a sudden we are chilled !!
the dog follows this smell for another 15' to the right-front corner of the room and literally goes nose-to-the-corner and then as abruptly as the whole viciousness started he comes wagging his tail over to us as if nothing had happened !!!
we bolted out of the house and i think my cousin and i were at the neighbors door across the street even before my front door had time to close !!!
we slept at the neighbors that night !
the sulphur smell was not some wafting weak odor but very strong and very localized and moving at a slow walking pace.
and my dad had an experience at the same house where he saw someone walk in front of the kitchen window - on the lower level - towards the stairwell that goes to the laundry-room about 10' away.
he goes into the laundry-room to answer the door and not only is nobody there but there are no footprints in the fresh snow !!!
fact is...........we know jackshit about our universe.
Sorry, I thought you wrote it was witnessed by your dog and your cousin- by "witness" I assumed the dog saw something.I too have had bad experiences like "a very strong and localized sulphur smell passes before us as the dog follows behind it"- I have to change the speed- dial on the phone so those damn dogs stop ordering pizzas WITH extra garlic while they watch TV.
I agree with
"fact is...........we know jackshit about our universe."
I once met this real dumb guy named Jack Shit.
I said "Why don't you change your name?"
He said "Don't rightly knows why peeples keep askin' me that, I done already changed it"
I was amazed " What was your old name?!!"
"Billy-Bob Shit" he said.
Truly one of the mysteries of the Universe.
a blind person can be a witness to something overheard.a deaf person can be witness to something seen.
my dog was witness to something that took place as were my cousin my father and i.
--> laugha now awhile you can amonkey-boy <-- john lithgow in buckaroo bonzai.
lololololol
There have been a few cases where dogs have been witnesses,
- here are part of the transcripts:
US Postal Service vs Rex the Schnauser 1998(Judge Judy)- "Bring in the next witness for the defence"
(Officer Bobrady brings in Rex on a leash.)
Prosecution: "Your Honour, I object- they're leading the witness!!!"
(Judge Judy)-"Objection sustained!"
On releasing Rex, he escaped custody and is believed to be hiding out in a shed in Montana.Without a defence witness, the Us Postal Service won their case.
Sylvia Harlowe v Prince, the Great Dane
(Judge Judy): "So tell me Miss Harlowe, what did this dog do to you?"
(Miss Harlowe): "It's embarressing your Honour"
(Judge Judy):"Well, where did he bite you, we're all grown up here"
(Miss Harlowe):"He didn't exactly bite me your honour"
(Judge Judy): "Well, what exactly did he do?"
(Miss Harlowe):" OK, I'll say it, I had just taken a shower and I was naked and I heard this noise and before I knew it my neighbours dog jumped on my back and started humping and humping and humping like a.. a... an animal!!!"
(Judge Judy):" That's incredible!! How much financial restitution do you want from the owners?"
(Miss Harlowe):"I don't want restitution, your Honour"
(Judge Judy):"That's understandable. I'll order the dog to be put down"
(Miss Harlowe):"That's not what I want either"
(Judge Judy):"What exactly do you want?"
(Miss Harlowe):"Well, I think they could clip his nails a little shorter".
Judge Judy then interviewed Prince privately in her chambers, and found in favour of Miss Harlowe, and the dog's nails were done.
nt
nt
snkby wrote:a healer friend of mine that says he is very sensitive to such things is willing to do a blind test with multiple containers either containing a piece of foil or not.
Great. If he can pull it off, then he can collect the as yet uncollected $1,000,000 from James Randi.
The $1,000,000 Paranormal Challenge
Good luck.
se
"and amputees getting phantom pains and having their amputated nervous system get mapped somewhere else on their body so that their brain feels a phantom foot itch and the amputee has to scratch their chest to calm it !!??i know you may say -- well thats biological and the other is metaphysical blah blah blah -- the fact is that they are 1 and the same."
Methinks some neurobiology, neurochemistry, and cognitive neuroscience courses are in order.
Andrew
x
I don't care if it works or not, I just love their tech speak. Man, this stuff is far-freakin-out. The bummer is their damn little glitter strips seem to have passed muster on my CDs. Even my wife could hear something, or so we thought in our blindfold test.
Having been part of my wife's inquiry into the red pen, all I can say is that it does work. The thing about the PWB stuuf is that it is working on the listener and not the system.
I know this is weird, but it did work. Basically here is what she did. I was asked to listen to any cut I wanted, but with the following restrictions. I would have to listen to it three times in a row and do so without opening my eyes either during or between playing times. I will tell you I had no idea what the pen was about, but yes I did know she was working on a review of the product. I chose a CD and we started. After I had played it the first time through I thought to myself that it sounded like it always had, no change. We played it again and at the end I felt that this time it sounded way better, that is I enjoyed it better. Then she hit play a third time and within 10 seconds I asked her to stop the player as it was very annoying. Same cut each time and I ever moved or opened my eyes. She asked my response to the music and I told her that the first time it sounded like always, the second was way more enjoyable, but the third was irritating to say the least.
Asking what she had done, I was informed that nothing was altered the first time, the second time she had written "Reimer> O.K." individually on two pieces of tape and laid one on top of each speaker, but on the third time she replaced these two tapes with ones that said "Reimer NO".
Go figure. Not the most scientific approach, but still kinda spooky.
All I can say is we have used the pen on all of our gear! How it all works... well we're still working on it. She has written two articles on their stuff and is working on more... what a wife!
Dave Clark
audiomusings
Remind me not to implement any tweaks when they are referenced as "almost as good as the PWB red pen stunt". . .
I suppose this is why cognitive psychology has such a fixation on methodology. I've been feeling frustrated in my cog psych classes because of this, but I guess methodology can indeed be critical. Tighten it up please.Andrew
The idea was not to do a "scientific" study nor to report that we had "tried" to do one, but simply relate a casual listening experience. "Hey, Dave come in here, I want to try something with you."
Yes, as I took plenty of classes for my BA in Psychology and even more for my another BA in Sociology, and then even more for my Masters in Education to allow me to look at things in life with a certain degree of maturity. I even spent 5 years doing air pollution research at a University, so I am quite familar with testing and such. I was in no way suggesting that what we did was rigorous, reliable, or vaild. But he odds of me having these results are interesting to say the least. And if I feel better about my music after writing messages on components, well then who's to question a billion people who practice feng shui.
Dave Clark
audiomusings
I don't doubt that people feel certain ways about things, but trying to explain the subjective with the extreme objective brings a personal reaction in me. That treatise about the "double slit experiment" was horrendously bad.I study cognitive science so I believe that science will one day be able to explain mysterious things like feng shui. However, it will happen through careful inquiry in established institutions, not from odd ramblings tinged with financial conflicts.
Andrew
When there is so much discussion of psychology, research methodology, it fails to be recognised, as predicted by those who have studied groups/group relations, that when an individual opposes 'the group' the hatred that pours forth is extraordinary. The simple fact is that if anyone acknowledges that Belt is onto something, they are immediately questionned if not ridiculed.
For the record, I have been using the red pen for some years. It is better now than ever, but not Belt's best product. His theories do no justice to what is experienced, and the poor man struggles to explain himself and his work continue. I do not belive any scientific method - be it qualitative or quantative - will convince anyone of anything in this field. Why should it? But if someone who is not drowning in the belief that how we see things now is the only future direction, it may be worth trying the products. I personally am more interested in music than physics, and perhaps there lies the key.
I have no hatred of Belt. I'm simply far from impressed by his theories. I don't have any strong ideological bias against tweaks. I use sand bags, vinyl tiles, bubble wrap, and Auric Illuminator. Some of it works, some of it doesn't.With the case of Auric Illuminator, I was motivated to try it because of A) much agreement about its benefits and B) a relatively solid account for its mechanism. I can understand that a substance changes the optical properties of the plastic CD surface, reducing diffraction of the reading laser, and that the substance also mitigates the buildup of static charge on the spinning surface. I learned about eddy currents in high school electromagnetics, and further EM during my studies at Caltech. Auric Illuminator meshes well with my scientific grounding which is not too much different from most people's scientific understandings.
Peter Belt's does not. Sure you can label it a sociological phenomenon, but it is simultaneously a physics and cognitive issue. He is abusing and misrepresenting ideas of quantum physics and cognitive linguistics and perceptual psychology. His explanations do not make any sense whatsoever and that's why I denounce them.
Sure, there's a remote possibility that his products do bring about some sort of perceived improvement to the sound, but there are so many confounding factors PLUS the effects are said to be so trivial that I don't think it's worth my time.
There's a continuum of scientific rigor ranging from pure math to the social sciences, and I think I draw my line further into the "fuzzy" side than most scientists. I stop right before parapsychology and paraphenomenology begin. There has been some research exploring these purported effects and some of it has indeed been published. The US military has invested unspecified amounts of money in paranormal research to counter supposed KBG research during the Cold War. What has come from it? (hint: nada)
Imagine what sorts of cool applications could be done with action-at-a-distance. If the phenomenon truly did exist, don't you think there would have been tons of research and tons of money thrown at the problem? Wouldn't it be capitalized to high heavens? We would be able to replace our cell phones and the entire Internet for crissakes!
BUT IT HASN'T HAPPENED AND IT AIN'T HAPPENING.
Check out Steve Eddy's post. Who would pass up ONE MILLION DOLLARS?
Andrew
My point is this.
Many developments in science occur without a framework to explain accurately what is happening, yet the observed phenomenon is real. Indeed many explanations put forward are inadequate, and the Belt's correctly use the progress of Lister, and the issue of contagion - it took sometime before bacteria were seen and categorised etc - but asceptic principles were still effective without that knowledge. If Peter Belt is providing us with inaccurate or even nonsensical explanations, is he trying, as Lister did, to describe something that cannot be observed 'directly' yet. But what he is doing is no more valid or invalid because of this. The phenomenon is there or it isn't.
I think there is also a mistake in assuming a pure scientific approach, with no cross fertilization between different fields - which often leads to those seemingly incompetent models - is better. Everyone remembers Newton, but not his interest in Alchemy. How does that relate to his physics! I won't begin to mention Da Vinci.
Okay, sure. Maybe Peter Belt is of the best intentions. I don't begrudge him his efforts at integrating psychophysics with cognitive linguistics with quantum physics, and hell, the applied field of electrical engineering while he's at it. I'm studying an interdisciplinary science myself.PWB just needs to be a hell of a lot more careful about doing his integrating, because the terrible job he's doing now makes him sound like a charlatan.
One does not invoke quantum physics lightly. Check out Racer's post above.
Andrew
I study cognitive science so I believe that science will one day be able to explain mysterious things like feng shui. However, it will happen through careful inquiry in established institutions, not from odd ramblings tinged with financial conflicts.You make an interesting point that science may one day be able to explain feng shui. However, fend shui has been practiced by millions for centuries, as someone else pointed out. Why is it necessary that science be able to explain feng shui in order for us to accept it as real? It wasn't so long ago that accupuncture was scorned as a fraudulent practice, today it appears to have become quite an acceptable alternative to conventional medicine, perhaps even the only solution in some cases - this with or without scientic explanation.
Roger Penrose proved that the big bang contained a singularity, yet the big bang seems to remain in most peoples' minds an ambiguous uncertainty. Steven Hawking has given us a scientic basis for black holes, yet I would venture to say that many people do not think black holes exist, anyway. So it goes.
Actually, recently astronomers have observed phenomena they believe are resultant from black holes. I forgot where I read about it but I'm sure you can find details searching the web.Andrew
The Hubble Space Telescope sites contain catelog of quite a few black hole photos, some are spectacular! (and very convincing). Try this one for example:http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/PR/2000/21/index.html
Hmm, philosophy of science arguments. I don't have any formal training with this but here goes:Science is a codified and institutionalized way of analyzing the world. It's just one perspective among many, but it happens to be a perspective that has brought about more change in human civilization than most others.
Instead of arguing the case of feng shui directly, allow me to provide an analogy. Consider a naturalistic herbal remedy like... willow bark tea, to treat pain. Scientific inquiry teased apart what exactly was going on with this "magical mixture" and isolated the active ingredient to a single substance or molecule, salicilic acid or salicin. Aspirin.
Was it necessary to provide an explanation for how willow bark tea relieves pain in order for it to relieve pain? No. Are there benefits to scientifically understanding how willow bark tea relieves pain? Yes. Aspirin is now widely available, most likely synthetically mass-produced, making it affordable and widespread, benefitting people the world over.
Imagine having a dentist operate on you without painkillers.
BTW I believe there is research being done on what goes on when the acupuncture needle penetrates your nerves. I recall some preliminary results reporting that the punctured neuron undergoes neurochemical changes -- likely something that affects our pain response. It's been a while since I understood the mechanisms of p-factor and whatnot, but the general idea is there.
My personal belief is that feng shui will one day be understood as a cultural institution that draws upon psychological, sociological, and aesthetic principles to bring about its effects. You could argue that this is just the Western perspective absorbing and dominating Eastern traditions; whatever. I'm Chinese and I have no problems with the thought. I believe Western science is good for progress.
Some of my pro-Western bias stems from reaction against Eastern extremes, such as Confucian conservatism (sexism, ageism, cronyism, nepotism, you name it) and my negative experience of their effects on people I know and on myself personally. I think the world will be a happier place when certain pieces of baggage are left behind.
Back to the here and now, when it comes to mystical doodads like the PWB stuff, on one level I think it's perfectly fine that an individual is making money from selling this stuff, regardless of its efficacy. Such is the free market and one can only hope that the invisible hand will protect us from our excesses.
On another level, I have the personal conviction stemming from my understanding of science (both physics and psychology) that this PWB stuff is absolute bullshit. People are wasting money on a charlatan.
Believe it or not, the world of feng shui is replete with similar characters. I have heard stories from my Chinese friends of Taiwanese businessmen being preyed upon by "feng shui masters" or "fortune tellers", almost akin to gypsies, who manipulate their victim's insecurities in order to parasitically ingratiate and enrich themselves. These afflicted businessmen grow dependent and must consult their fortune-tellers daily, especially before making any business deal! Whatever happened to good business sense?
I'm sure there are similar abuses happening with psychologists in the US, and I believe these abuses are similarly wrong.
One argues: but as long as the huckster's patrons are being made happy, that's all that matters right?
Again, on the level of the free market, sure. But on the level of my personal convictions, NO.
As intelligent human beings we have the responsibility to do the best we can. I believe we can do better to understand what is going on in the world. We should not confuse objective studies with subjective experiences. In particular, inaccurately evoking the quantum-mechanical for personal benefit is irresponsible.
Stated formally, I do believe that the epistemologically subjective can and will one day be integrated with the ontologically objective. However, it will only happen through careful work done in the cognitive and related sciences. Our current state of knowledge is far too sparse for particular individuals to be making the grand proclamations that they are. There is something wrong with the idea that they stand to benefit financially from misrepresenting science and misleading the public.
Andrew
I think we, as individuals, often don't recognize which baggage should be discarded and which should be kept. The proposition that we can discriminate the "wheat from the chaff" is often based solely on pure arbitrariness and the (flawed) belief that our knowledge is either complete or good enough to make a "rational" decision. Looking back, I think that personal prejudice and arbitrariness enters the picture more than we (I) realize or are willing to admit. As time goes by, the things we used to reject are embraced and vice versa. Then, a while later the tables are turned again. To a large extent we just don't have the ammunition to make an intelligent choice in these (audio) matters frequently. Our own personal knowledge (at the time) leads us to make certain decisions/commitments, Solid State vs Tubes or Digital vs Analog, to use two wear-worn examples of debatable arguments, belief systems you could say. There are both sides to these arguments, would you agree? Have you read the book, Time's Arrow and Archimedes Point (Huw Price)? - a philosopher's attempt to link the two fields of philosophy and quantum physics. It is rough reading, perhaps you would be more attuned to it than I by virtue of your coursework. You might like the original 1935 paper by Schrodinger (contains the "Schrodinger's Cat" analogy) on quantum mechanics and "action at a distance" that he wrote in response to Einstein's paper of the same year on the same subject. A brief description of Schrodinger cat paradox can be found at:http://www.mtnmath.com/faq/meas-qm-faq-3.html
I'm familiar with the Schroedinger's Cat paradox. It's an interesting thought experiment and I think it's getting at something profound about our connection to the world as supposed individuals through observation. Our concepts of entities versus the world are binary, black and white, when the truth lies somewhere in the fuzziness. (I like Lofti Zadeh's work on fuzzy logic and George Lakoff's work on embodied cognition).I don't know if you can generalize the thought experiment to PWB rainbow foil or red scribbles improving audio quality. There are way too many arbitrary factors involved. Any effects would be washed out in the noise. This is why careful science needs to be undertaken, and there are already established methods and institutions for doing so.
Andrew
well, I can see why you might suspect that something is not quite right with the PWB stuff. But I feel obliged to mention that I have some of the PBW products and (imo) they are far from ineffectual or subtle. I think it may be in their (conscientious) attempt to explain their various products, the point is blunted because the explanations presumably have to be believed before someone will purchase the items. And someone may have a better explanation for how things work. Who knows, maybe the reasons are very conventional, tho I don't think so. We don't require amplifier manufactures to explain the theory of electricity to sell their products, PWB is IMO just making an effort to explain something that is way off the beaten trail. There is just not that much expense involved in trying most pwb products, so the argument that they are somehow preying on innocent audiophiles simply isn't true. I wouldn't exactly say the red pen writing involves "scribbling," as there is actually a lot more to it - in fact, on the contrary, the red pen "methodology" is Extremely Organized; the problem PWB (the company not the products) has, perhaps, is that their products/ideas are, in fact, strange/bizarre and perhaps not explained to everyone's satisfaction. As you probably know from playing around with cones, cables, isolation devices and the like, it's more often than not unpredictable what device/cable or combination of them will result in reducing the noise floor or raising the noise floor. One step forward two steps back, sometimes. We are just trying to make sense of many things, some seem to be more unpenetrable than others.
geoffkait wrote:We are just trying to make sense of many things, some seem to be more unpenetrable than others.
And some people try to make sense of things by contriving vastly over complicated fictions (sort of the opposite of Occam's Razor).
Percival Lowell pointed his telescope at Mars and instead of seeing a fuzzy, largely ambiguous blob of light he saw engineered structures. Canals! And since such engineered structures simply don't spontaneously manifest themselves, the canals must have been built by someone. And so we go from fuzzy blob, to canals, to Martians!
You offer your sophomoric diatribes about Lister et al. and speak of the closed-mindedness of others but seem oblivious to your own closed-mindedness. A closed-mindedness that recognizes only the Listers and omits the Lowells.
But in a bit of a twist, in this case you seem to be making the argument for Martians.
se
I was wondering when you would show up...saving the world from so-called pseudo-science, I see. Hey, everyone's got to be somewhere, why are you not over on Audioreview? You must be confusing me with someone else re Lister, don't know what on Earth you're referring to. And no, I do not believe in Martians. In closing, I would say you are the one with the diatribes - I don't think you know the meaning of the word, actually.
geoffkait wrote:I was wondering when you would show up...saving the world from so-called pseudo-science, I see. Hey, everyone's got to be somewhere, why are you not over on Audioreview?
Not saving the world from anything. Simply expressing an opinion. In spite of your lip service to open-mindedness, you certainly seem rather intolerant of opinions that don't agree with yours. The above says little more than "You don't agree with me so get the !@#$% out of here."
And I'm not on Audioreview any longer (and only participated there briefly) because the status quo there was simply too intolerant (i.e. the idiot shin-kickers like Mtrycrafts, CE, Eyespy, etc.). And while the status quo here versus Audioreview is different, I'm beginning to see a similar level of intolerence here. So perhaps leaving isn't such a bad idea after all.
You must be confusing me with someone else re Lister, don't know what on Earth you're referring to.
Yes, I double checked an the Lister comment was made by someone else (rdgraham in this same thread). My apologies for the misattribution. However the gist of the arguments were quite similar.
And no, I do not believe in Martians.
And once again you missed the point entirely.
In closing, I would say you are the one with the diatribes - I don't think you know the meaning of the word, actually.
No, I know the meaning of the word. I simply used it in the more archaic sense.
se
nt
Sean wrote:Read it and wonder why some tweaks are looked upon as being "voodoo" or a "bunch of hooey" in this case.
Looked upon as being "voodoo" or a "bunch of hooey" by whom? Certainly no one in the high end. That would be tantamount to admitting that there are charlatans afoot in this industry. And as everyone knows, not one charlatan has ever dared exploit this industry. Ever. The record is perfectly clear and undeniable on this matter. You're just trying to stir up trouble. So stop it.
se
Couldn't agree more. Equally there are no gullible idiots out there to making those charlatans rich by worshipping the mystic god at the margins of tweakdom. Even as an atheist I think some people would be better off joining a church to satisfy those leanings. It just smacks of irrationality, and a desperate need to believe in something, anything.There, got that off my chest. Must go juggle some crystals to improve my karma.
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