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Anyone hear these and like them compared to film... The BME C0G ceramics are reported to be the best ceramics, at least on paper. T
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C0G ceramics (also called NP0) just refers to the temperature coefficients. The C0G types are the best in that regard, being best for use in oscillator or tuned circuits. They are still ceramics, however, and will not be as good for audio signal path applications as a good film type capacitor. If you must use a surface mount cap, you can find film types.
I replaced what are likely 220pf tantalums with EVOX PFR PP AL foil and am not happy with them so far. Clearer, smoother of course but there is a thinness in sizzly cymbals , a decrease in warmth in voices and last but not least a worsening of sibilance and it's negative aspects. If I put the tants back in I won't be able to shave in the morning. The possible best choices are copper foil Amtrans and copper foil styrenes, both intolerably expensive. These are pretty small , for a dac, and have 5mm spacing. There are a total of 10 of these types of caps that need to be replaced. What to do now?? Tweaker
Just replaced the 220pf Evox PFR aluminum foil PP with Vishay KP1830 (ERO) tin foil PP in a dac. Much much better. Brightness, glare , thinness in cymbals, slight thinness in my test voice and an increased in the irritation of sibilance all gone or way reduced. These are very natural sounding caps. Many good things have been said about tin foil in general and this is my first listen to a tin foil cap. Very impressed. Hopefully they will get better sounding with break in. A blue Wima foil cap from a long time ago was horribly bright, the Evox's are a bit bright and unnaturally thin sounding and I remember cheap small styrenes as being somewhat bright. This tin foil cap has none of those drawbacks and may be the real deal. In my humble opinion. Your mileage may vary. T
Edits: 08/17/16 08/17/16
or thin sounding cymbals in your post. The only time I heard this much about brightness, hiss, or glare was with a SS setup and horn speakers. With all the tweaks you have done you should have been past those stages a long time ago. I can understand a slight edginess but the brightness stuff should have gone been way back.
With the hiss and brightness you describe in past post, I keep wondering if there is something else going on with your setup that you are trying to fix with the tweaks. With all the tweaks you have done you could have built your own DAC.
I know I have asked this before but don't know if you answered it. What does your digital setup consist of? All I know you have a DAC. What is the transport, cables, power cables, preamp, power amp, speaker cables, and speakers?
If I'm correct, I thought I saw you post that you have either Hubbell or Oyaide R1 outlet/s.
This would go a long ways to help us to help you with your system. You have been at this a long time with this DAC. I just to help identify what may be a trouble spot in your system that we can help you with to improve the SQ of your system or DAC.
These new ERO 1830 caps fix the trouble spot. Only I can tweak my system to how I (or my brain) wants it to sound. It's a MF V-dac I got in trade for a digital cable I made that someone liked enough to trade me his spare dac for. There is not one good cap in this dac so I'm replacing them, pretty much all of them. If I had stopped at these small value caps I would not have achieved the substantial and very important improvement with these new caps. This is what the hobby is about to me anyhow. Listening to things, comparing them and eventually staying with what I like. It's sounding vg now and I'm almost finished with it. T
we think about this part and that part then since only you can tweak your system how you like it. It's true, only you know what you like and don't like. I was just trying to help identify a possible trouble spot (if there was one) outside of the DAC. It's hard to help out when someone that doesn't give all the details about their components/systems.So cool, hope you have fun with your DAC. I'm done.
Edits: 08/17/16
Are you sure the 220pF caps are tants? That seems like a very low value for a tantalum. Caps in that range are usually ceramic or maybe mica. Polystyrene will most likely be the best choice in that range.
Not sure they are tants. Looks like you are correct about them being unlikely to be tants. They are narrow dome shaped and dipped. Very unlike the many obvious ceramic caps that were in this circuit. So maybe polyester? In the distant past I have had the experience of feeling that styrenes were a bit clinical and possibly too bright, stuff like the MIALs'?? They are orange domes marked 220j and nothing else. So I'll give up the idea of C0G and figure something else out. It's the small size that so limits the choice. This is the last series of caps to replace in this dac. Liked the stacked film, loved the Elna Silmic II and now am running into a bit of a snag. Thanks, Tweaker
a ceramic capacitor is still a ceramic capacitor. They have their preferred applications, such as in bypassing power to ICs or bypassing rectifier diodes. Other than that, I would avoid placing a ceramic capacitor into what is commonly thought of as the signal path. So, I cannot say I ever "heard" a C0G ceramic, although I have used them in the above applications.
Looks like John Curl prefers good film caps to the C0G ceramic where appropriate. T
I beg to differ . . . I nowadays use COG ceramics in both the input and
RIAA section of my phono amps.
for providing a reference to that article. I read it quickly just now, but I will save it for future reference. You are correct in citing the fact that the author rather likes C0G ceramics for use in audio, but he ends with the following statement:
"For small, low distortion capacitors up to 10 nF [nanofarads], my personal choices would be C0G ceramic" For higher values typically used in audio circuits, he would go with polystyrene film and foil or polypropylene film and foil, as stated in the sentences following the one I quoted. For use in audio, the C0G would be limited by the fact that they are not made in values higher than 0.1uF (100nF). If you've designed your RIAA such that you only need capacitance up to 0.1uF, you're good to go. Not many commercial RIAA correction circuits use capacitors that low in value. Note also (Tweaker) that his data do not support use of ceramics, other than C0G types, in audio.
I was very interested to see that he likes polystyrenes, because I like them a lot too, based only on my subjective observation, for values up to 2.0uF. As he mentions, the sad fact is that PS capacitors are disappearing in favor of polypropylene.
Lev wrote: "....For use in audio, the C0G would be limited by the fact that they are not made in values higher than 0.1uF (100nF). If you've designed your RIAA such that you only need capacitance up to 0.1uF, you're good to go."You can, if you need, connect them in parallel . . . none of my RIAA components exceed 10 nF though.
Edits: 08/17/16
After posting, I realized that many, if not most, RIAA circuits DO use capacitors in the range below 0.1uF, which is 10,000pF. I own four phono stages, and to my knowledge they all make do with C values less than 10KpF. I have been using the Russian silver mica SSG capacitors in phono, whenever possible. They are about as transparent as any I have ever heard. I'd be interested to try C0Gs, if just for my own edification, because sometimes the Russian SSGs just don't physically fit on PCBs. Have you ever compared C0G to SSG?
Yes and no(but just ordinary Silver Micas, not the SSG ones*.), and I find the COGs is at least as good, both in RIAA and as input match for the cartridge.*Edit: My fault.
Edits: 08/17/16 08/17/16 08/18/16
Way better than the typical "silver mica" capacitors of current vintage, both in build and in appearance. The only problem is their physical size (big) and the fact that the outer casing is metallic, which means it cannot be allowed to touch other circuit elements. In fact, so far the SSGs are the only Russian capacitors I have tried that really do live up to their advance billing, and then some. I did not find the Russian teflon caps to be on par with teflon caps made by REL or sold under the VCap label, for one example. When it comes to teflon, there's no free lunch.
They come with little tags for soldering to. I recommend removing those tags (they easily fall off if you heat them with a solder gun) and soldering direct to the nubbin-like contacts.
Please, try a bunch of Hitano COGs, they are dirt cheap and can be matched to the last pF if you buy several of each value.The Hitano can easily be purchased up to 330pF each. As I said, I prefer them over ordinary Silver Micas.
If nothing else, size matters. Plus, the SSGs are not made in the really low pF range of values.
The Vishay ERO KP1830, specs say they are tin foil and PP, are so far the ones to beat. IMHO the ordinary micas are likely not in the same league. Hitano C0G caps don't seem available in the USA or on Ebay for the most part. The best C0G's are supposed to be the BME ones. The Kemet 300's are easy to get and are BME C0G's. T456
Laila, Have you done AB listening tests against film and foil caps and in the likelihood of a yes answer do you have a fav COG? While I like clear and smooth like most people I don't want to give up a full lower midrange, midrange and treble. The Evox PFR are just a bit thin. They are reported to be better than a certain Wima film and foil. Thanks, Tweaker
Edits: 08/12/16
The short answer is yes, in my applications they are(sounds) better than both mica and styrene. I have not tested teflon.Edit:I use "Hitano" with good result.
Edits: 08/13/16
Thanks
Where to get copper foil styrenes?
Thanks, Peter
mrplatte, There are a few values of cu foil styrene caps on ebay made by Nissei. Amtrans AMCH are copper foil and polypropylene. Newark had tin foil polystyrene from LCR Components, their FSCEX series. Picofarad values. T
"Amtrans AMCH are copper foil and polypropylene. "
Really? I don't think so ...
The Vishay KP1830 are tin foil PP and inexpensive. I read one good review. Tin seems to get more respect than aluminum and less respect than copper. A cap not talked about much. The are on the way.
My mistake. I had it in my mind that I read they were cu and PP. The specs on the AMCH don't say what type of foil they use. So I would say it is extremely unlikely they are cu foil. If they were they would be advertising it. T
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