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Can it be a real Telefunken 12AX7 or ECC83 if it doesn't? This is the bottom.
Edits: 07/12/12Follow Ups:
I have yet to own a TFK 9-pin mini (whatever the type) without the "diamond."
Or like. e.g., Mullards?
Years ago I acquired a NOS pair of Tektronix Matched Telefunken 12AU7's with the Tektronix labels on them and the original Tektronix double box. They had no discernible diamond on the bottom and due to the labels on the tubes the date codes were not visible. I'm not sure whether they were genuine Telefunken tubes, but they did sound very nice. I no longer have them and never did a real comparison to another pair of well used diamond bottom Telefunkens I had at the time. Just curious about them.
There are some counterfeits that do not, though. They look identical to the Tele smooth plate, but have no diamond.
Another giveaway is the lettering. On a true Tele, the lettering rubs off easily. The counterfeits do not.
The counterfeits sound great, though. They were made by EI and relabeled.
If you are lucky enough to find some early fifties made ones,
youŽll find that they donŽt have the diamond on the bottom, but they are so rare that the chances to find some are really small.
Roland
Both tubes are genuine Telefunken.
Pic 1. On the left an ECC81 from 1955, on the right from 1952
Pic 2. Datecodes B.bf.01 and B.ur.01 june 1955 and august 1952
Pic 3. Diamond on the left tube, no diamond on the right tube.
Note the square getter on th 1952 tube
Pic. 2
Pic 3.
If so, they're so rare no one I know has ever seen one.
Byrd asked this question some time ago as he was in possession of some E88ccs that had perfect Tele innards, including the angeled getter support with the v-shaped slot down the middle. He was told by a dealer that they could not be genuine. But who else made an angeled getter support? Some of the Siemens had the same construction getter and getter support, but they were verticle, not angled.
Observe, before you think
If they're out there, they must be ribbed plates; as the smooth plates came later. I have many ribbed/ladder plates and they all have clearly read date codes and diamonds on the bottom.
Does anyone have the date code info on the Telees ?
The link is the auction of the tubes I mentioned above. They are from a local seller, who I don't know and I just am not sure they are real, however, he also has a Marantz 7 with, what looks to be, the same tubes.
Those have Philips etched production codes on them.I can't quite read the plant code but the one I have here was made in Blackburn so most people would say it's a Mullard.
Tubes made in any of the Philips plants can be labeled anything from Mullard to Amperex to Valvo, etc.
If they were sold by Telefunken, but not made by Telefunken are they counterfeit tubes?
Take
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 07/12/12
It's not a rounded "E", but another symbol that looks like an "E" (forget the name of it).
The codes are upside down and only the first line is clearly visible.The first line reads 163. 16 (or I6) is the code for a 12ax7 and the 3 means of the 3rd construction type. It's the first character in the second line that denotes the plant of manufacture. I can't read the second line.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 07/12/12
.
I think you mean this character: Ɛ
It's listed as a Latin Capital Open Letter E and as you point out is the symbol for the Chelmsford, UK plant.
Joe
These might be relabelled; but most likely not with the authorization of Telefunken. In the sixties and seventies, when certain worldwide supplies may have been short, Telefs were widely available with other brand's silk screening. However, I have never known the opposite to be true.
In fact, I recall reading some manufacturers' engineers saying they used Telef tubes because they were the lowest priced. While I really doubt that, as Telef quality was always high, rugged and long lasting, they certainly made millions of tubes into the seventies.
When I first saw the bootleg smooth plates in the late '70s, they were researched to be Siemens, which was/is such a huge company, they may have actually bought Telef by then ! However, the quality of those tubes was not as good as the real smooth plates by Telef.
Will the real Telef stand up and be heard !
Tube companies did this all the time. RCA sold Mullard EL34's branded RCA. I have many of them. They sold Mullard GZ34s as well. Are these counterfeit tubes?Companies swapped tubes back and forth all the time.
What makes you think that Telefunken never did this?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 07/12/12
All right, then. From the mid-seventies thru the mid eighties, I worked as a sound engineer in NYC. I had close ties with a few electronic parts distributors, popular back then. When I heard of the supposed Siemens Telefs, I asked my favorite tube distributor about them.
I was told that these Telef labelled tubes only came in bulk, only available in white boxes; or, for a small extra fee, nicer boxes. You see, some distributors often had silk-screening capabilities as well as folded and ready boxes and small printing abilities in their back rooms. Yes; the distributors could rebrand tubes as well as the companies themselves. They could even replicate the numbering on the top flap of genuine factory boxes that were folded flat, sent to the distributors in bulk. At what point the term counterfeit is applicable is a matter of opinion.
I really needed some extra ECC83s for our studios. So, I still pressed on, wondering about the quality of these rebranded tubes that sure looked like Telef smooth plates. My distributor ally insisted the tubes were testing very nicely. They hated returns. The word on the streets, within both the studio engineering world as well as the hifi (audiophile) world, was these tubes were bootlegs. These tubes were not "authorized" like so many rebranded tubes from large companies. The distributor did not even know where they came from, but was told they were German. The mystery lived on. BTW, at that same time, you could buy Siemens branded small plate ECC83s or E83CCs in genuine orange and blue Siemens boxes, which sounded very good. Since the studio manager/CE needed long-term reliability, we purchased some of the real Siemens tubes in Siemens boxes.
Now Tre, as I know you know, I am well aware that many manufacturers/large electronics companies sold rebranded tubes. These same companies did not "hide" their sources; for awhile. When you opened a red and white RCA box to find a white silk-screened "Made in Great Britain" or "Made in Germany" as well as the RCA logo on the tube, you knew what you were getting. You knew that RCA had stopped making that tube and still needed to supply the users with authorized rebranded tubes. However, sometime in the eighties, many large companies allowed "mislabelled" tubes to be rebranded and resold in their own boxes. You know that deal; I am sure. Thus, even though the tube was labelled made in Britain or England or Germany, it could even be a Russian or Yugoslovian or Slovakian or ? tube. Certainly, at that point, we were consuming gray market, non-truth in advertising, "goods" that may or may not live up to the companies' reputations.
The EI Telef smooth plate ECC83s may be outright counterfeit tubes. Does the product say they are made by EI to Telef's specs ? Do the boxes, which look good to the non-vintage aware guys, let us know these are repros ? Even if they sound good, we all have heard about reliability issues with many types of EI tubes. Real Telefs are good for decades; often many decades. Can we say that about the many currently available "rebranded" tubes ? The "new" Mullard tubes clearly indicate their origins, as do the repro Genalex. Hopefully, these "repro" tubes will last a long while. We should all be aware that the original output tubes keep climbing in value, indicating the repro KT tubes (for an example) are not satisfying many discerning collectors.
But, the rebranding did get out of hand in the past. Some of it was genuine rebranding. Some of it was genuine deception. Buyer beware was, and is much more important than truth in advertising or any FTC assistance. "Quality is job 1" is a concept of the past; it seems...
"But, the rebranding did get out of hand in the past. Some of it was genuine rebranding. Some of it was genuine deception. "
I agree.
My question was about a 1967 Blackburn Mullard short plate 12ax7 relabeled Telefunken.
I don't understand why anyone would do that as a deception. What would be the point? Were Telefunken tubes more valuable than Mullard tubes.
Thanks
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
That particular example of a '67 tube relabelled is deceiving. If I sent my wife to buy a tube at a distributor, she would not know what to look for unless forewarned. She would know if the tube looked like it was labelled yesterday, or wiped a bit having been stored in it's box for a few years. A typical newbie might not be concerned at all.
My guess, about that tube, is that it was relabelled by a distributor, or a sneaky collector trying out his silk screening prowess. Like I mentioned in the above post, the distributor's customer may have wanted a Telee or a few. Since they weren't in stock, into the back room for some magic; some sly business. In my almost 40 years using and collecting tubes, I have never seen a Telef with any date codes etched in the side glass.
Since the '80s, it has been well known that Telefs were/are worth more than small plates. Ironically, the earlier long plate Mullards and Amperexes have surpassed the genuine Telef ECC83 values. Concerning the ribbed/ladder plate Telefs, vs. the smooth plate Telefs, I usually prefer the earlier ribbed plate. But, sometimes I can prefer other brands entirely...the fun of tube rolling.
Is a tube sold by Telefunken but not made by Telefunken a counterfeit tube?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The counterfitting seems to have begun in the late '70s to early '80s with Siemens being the culprit. Ironically, those Siemens tubes have become collectible. Why ? I do not know; as Siemens is not anywhere near a favorite on my list.
Apparently, since the mid '90s, EI has done it again. Allegedly, these sound good ? Who cares ? Don't you realize this company has beat the system ? Don't you think their quality control is uncaring as they continue to be involved in counterfeit products ? Will their bootleg tubes last decades as the real Telees do ?
A few years ago, at a crowded swap meet, a guy came over with a bag full of white sleeves of five tubes; with white boxed supposed Telees that were actually painted red on their tops to simulate the special hand selected for lo-noise ECC83 types. Because the silkscreen looked so new and the diamond stamped bottom was diffuse looking, I passed on the high priced lots. The guy was also a bit shady. But, the key factor here is that the diamonds and numbers on the bottom were attempted by the counterfitters. So, be warned. If the silkscreen looks too new, be wary. If you cannot read the number(s) in the diamond bottom, do not spend your hard earned cash.
Will the real Telee stand up and be heard....(LOL)
i have seen hundreds of TFK 12AX7 and none of them without diamond <> . but i own a couple TFK 12AT7/ECC81 that miss this print and are TKFs nevertheless as some experts say. seem to be very early pieces. i am afraid this info wonŽt really help...
N.
The times, they are changing...
there is always a diamond on the Tele but I like the EI every bit as much and in some ways, to my ears, the EI is more musical.
The Elaborate DAC=Johnny's Balloon Meshplate 27 Balanced Preamp=Balanced Six Pacs=Newform Research 645
iRiver H140/MB Balanced dac/amp/Ultrasone Ed. 9/JH13 Pro IEM's
see images at: www.pbase.com/jamato8
I think you mean "ECC83". To be a true Tele, based on everything I have heard and also what I have experienced it must have a diamond on the bottom. I have seen true Tele with both seams and no seams on the tube top.
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