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In Reply to: RE: Do russian teflon capacitors lack musicality? posted by tube wrangler on February 16, 2017 at 20:09:49
WOW!
What you just wrote was unbelievably false in so many ways.First of all,the Russian caps are not 5 dollar caps.You are getting them for that price because of the surplus market but obviously,a super power military pays a lot more for stuff than the average consumer does.
An HP 8903 distortion analyzer was 18 thousand US dollars new in the late 80s.Today they sell for 600usd to 800usd on the surplus market.The point is,the govt and industry paid the big bucks already and we reap the benefits later.Does this mean they were a 600 dollar machine? NO!
I have the TFTF Vcaps and they are a nice cap but they are WAY OVER PRICED for comparative performance gain.I have the analyzers and the ability to test the sonic performance of these caps in a way most others don't. I have given the FT3s and my TFTF Vcaps a thorough sonic run and there are somethings I like better in each cap but both overall serve their purpose.The FT3 is a larger cap in physical size when you compare numbers. The Vcap teflon you see here is a 1uf at 600v and the .1uf FT3 is about the same size but lighter.The .47uf Russian teflon is much larger than the Vcap teflon tho and heavier. I tested the .1uf and .22uf Vcaps against the .1uf and .22uf FT2 and FT3 and I had slightly more definition in the upper frequency range but the FT2s sounded more natural and at ease. The big advantage for the FT series is I can use much better wire on them as opposed to the Vcap.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Edits: 02/17/17Follow Ups:
All of this depends what cap you are applying where, and what
your understanding is of that circuit. The same cap will work
differently in different places and will measure differently
in different circuits and with different test equipment.Capacitor choices are best made according to observed performance
in a given application. People also have different musical tastes.I have never found an application for any "Vitamin Q' style of
capacitor-- whether made by Sprague, CDE, Sangamo-- or others.This is one class of capacitors that I will not use in anything,
period. Some also leak-- this is NOT ACCEPTABLE EVER-- not under ANY
circumstance!I once had thousands of these, and I have had many hundreds of
Russian Mil-Spec items. The Silver/Micas, I could use in a very few cases, all the other Mil-Spec caps-- American or Russian were given
away because today you can buy much better, although I admit that this often costs more."Overpriced" means zero to me. I probably make less money than most
of you, but I don't like compromised performance when I know that
better can be gotten...I only care about the best performance and
Long-Term reliability. A component must have both and NEVER leak
anything-- not EVER. It must also never wear out, or change
sonically once broken-in.I know DIY at home can tolerate some of these shortcomings, but
I'd rather go Jet-Skiing than tolerate ANY failure in something
I use for musical enjoyment--- I want THAT to run itself-- for
as long as I live.If it requires any more attention than my Speed Queen washing
machine, or a great refrigerator, then I really don't want it.-Dennis-
Edits: 02/20/17
Dennis
You just said the magic word from "YOUR EXPERIENCE"you wouldn't use a vintage paper in oil or teflon cap but tell this to the many people that do.I know a few audio amp and preamp manufacturers and the reason many don't use them is not because of sound quality,it is because they want caps they can buy off the shelf 10 years later. Cary used to use a lot of Vit Q caps and other vintage caps in certain places in their amps .When the supply ran dry,he switched over.Paper in oil caps have definite advantages if used correctly.They are very linear and stable with frequency change and Steve Bench shows this in his testing.
I'm sure a lot of people would love to have a Sherwood or Mcintosh tube amp with all Jensen Silver foil or Vcaps teflons in it but you would be looking at 4 to 5k in caps alone and that would be ridiculous for what you think you would gain.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
Edits: 02/20/17
Paper in oil and Teflons? Either can be some of the best. I think some
silver/micas are good.
Vintage? That's a lot more troublesome because capacitors have come a long, long way since even 2008.
Today's best caps are able to use a variety of technologies, and nearly
all of them if from really good manufacturers, are very much better than older stock of similar types-- in most cases.
Rel-Cap cu Teflons were always very good, and the old Sidereals were
another great performing exception. They were so good that they could be used in world-class equipment today!
Those are exceptions. If you've got an old "Mac" or a Marantz, Citation, Dynaco, or whatever, you should toss-out ALL of those capacitors-- some of today's "cheapies" will easily outperform them. Ditto for "Vitamin Q's"-- those things are really medium-grade by today's standards.
G.E., especially, made a series of round motor-run paper-in-oils.
These are excellent even today-- only the round ones have high performance.
It's to each his own with capacitors.
-Dennis-
I never liked the Siderials at all..When they became Auricap,they improved a lot.The old 160P I would take out amps to replace with Siderials sounded better with the 160p. Here is the thing.Capacitors have come a ways but the the principle of what they hasn't changed.I like SonicCap teflons a lot.The 160P black beauties will outperform a any metallized cap as long as it's good in a Mac. On the phase inverter to voltage amp in a Mac amp,if you use anything but a paper in oil or paper in wax cap there,it will sound harsh,brittle,and compressed. These are the .047s.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
These boutique snake oil parts have nothing to do with real world price / performance ratio.
Look at their web site. These super duper VCaps advertised with a ton of utterly useless blah blah blah and NO industry standard datasheet. $0.02 parts have data sheet with measurements, yet $100 don't. Possibly they will correct this in the future after 13 years of R&D lead by "collaborative effort of engineers, materials scientists, and some highly respected audio industry icons". These guys seem to be too modest to put their names on so great work.Meanwhile consider using something like medicine without certification.
The fact customer's don't have to eat and digest these caps only saves sellers from state regulators.
Edits: 02/18/17
I agree!
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
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