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In Reply to: RE: stranded wire???? posted by cpotl on December 07, 2016 at 11:51:40
To be clear, I never mentioned diodes or micro diodes or suggested any technical reason as to why. I am more interested in thought into the "if"
I do know that I have some switch contacts here for an attenuator that are on bare copper circuit boards and after about three weeks they become noisy. (I presume from oxidation) If I disassemble and clean the contacts I am good for another three weeks. Obviously the potentials involved here are much higher than that in adjacent pieces of uninsulated wire but it is clear to me that a gold wiper on a copper pad can become noisy. This project was to test a circuit board layout prior to putting up the serious coin for the hard gold plating required for the contacts but it was the noise that got me "wondering"
And in a case like an interconnection wire between tube stages in an amplifier, the impedance of the wire is utterly insignificant compared to the input impedance of the stage it is connected to, and so things like the skin effect, the possibility of non-linearities from diode junctions, and so on, is even less important than in a higher-current application like a speaker cable.
I see this as a very slippery slope. If we adhere to the above thought, a piece of wire cut into 100 pieces and resoldered back together must also be inaudible in a high impedance circuit. I realize that is as extreme as saying an inch of wire.... but if we are going to explore we need to look at the extremes in order to find reality which typically lies somewhere in the middle.
Follow Ups:
"I see this as a very slippery slope. If we adhere to the above thought, a piece of wire cut into 100 pieces and resoldered back together must also be inaudible in a high impedance circuit."
Well, OK, let's consider this example further. I must admit I have a hard time thinking of any reason why the 100-segment soldered wire would be audible in this context (connecting to a high-impedance next stage). What kind of effects do you have in mind?
Are you thinking of something that could also be measured? If so, we could try to estimate the order of magnitude of the effect, and then try to decide whether it could be audible.
Chris
Are you thinking of something that could also be measured? If so, we could try to estimate the order of magnitude of the effect, and then try to decide whether it could be audible.
I end up teetering from the middle to both of the extremes on this one where I say I'm not sure if it were measurable and as lew mentioned people are quick to hear a difference and then measure a difference and attach the two points with a very scientific looking crayon.
My guess is it would be audible and that would be the first thing I would look into determining. I don't want to fall off the ABX cliff nor do I want to dive into the chasm of we cannot measure everything we can hear. I am not interested in the black or white arguments since they never universally hold water I just like exploring the 80º azure grey waters inbetween a puddle in in Flint Michigan and the bottom of the Mariana Trench.
dave
"My guess is it would be audible and that would be the first thing I would look into determining."Hi Dave, your philosophy seems very reasonable and open-minded. But I am still curious; I cannot think of any particular reason why one might expect that a 100-fold snipped-up interconnect lead that has been resoldered together would be likely to behave audibly differently from an unbroken lead, provided it is feeding into a high-impedance following stage.
Can you give any pointers to what sort of effects you have in mind that might give rise to sonic differences? I can see how it might offend the eye, but why the ear?
Chris
Edits: 12/09/16
I think it would be worse into a low impedance stage. A 100 soldered connection wire will probably have measurable higher resistance than a single wire the same length. A low input impedance will cause more voltage drop.
"I think it would be worse into a low impedance stage. A 100 soldered connection wire will probably have measurable higher resistance than a single wire the same length. A low input impedance will cause more voltage drop."
Agreed. But feeding into a high impedance, say 100K, it could be no more than about a 1 part in 10^5 effect, I suppose, at most. And even then, it could, I should have thought, be compensated, if need be, by a slight turn of the volume control. But what actual degradation of the sonic quality might occur? I can't think of anything that would be anywhere near being audible.
Chris
hey... was away from the weekend.
I cannot give a technical explanation but I think there are plenty of anecdotal reports. How much merit you give to those reports is another topic and we quickly get trapped between the all wire sounds the same of iy has the same L C and R.
I can give one anecdotal story about a "wire test" that I had full control over. A number of years ago I took two pair of identically wound SUT's to RMAF one pair wound with silver and the other pair wound with copper. The inductance of the two pair were identical as was the HF behavior out to 100Khz.. the first resonant node of the two may have been a few khz apart 150Khz vs. 155Khz but aside from the posiiton of that peak, the waveforms were identical. Due to the lower resistivity of silver, that unit did have slightly lower DCR and that was the only measuable difference.
We did the swap a number of times with various groups of people and nearly everyone voiced a difference. The preference for one or the other remained pretty consistent from one person to the next and it was split maybe 70-30 in favor of the silver. I was actually called a liar by one person because he insisted that I had the copper and silver mixed up and the thing that stuck with me was how clear the differences were independent of who liked what.
Now taking this little anecdotal and trying to pull something from it gets ugly since many people insist that the AB swaps were not controlled and the data not collected in an acceptable manner. Others simply look at the obvious difference in DCR and formulate their story as to why. I personally think the results were consistent and repeatable enough to stand and completely discount the possibility of the DCR difference (or transformer behavior at 150Khz) being the cause. So all I can take form it is a firm belief that silver sounds different than copper and I have no idea why.
dave
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