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In Reply to: RE: stranded wire???? posted by cpotl on December 07, 2016 at 03:12:07
Hi Chris,You are incorrect as you often are, on the finer points in audio.
One can see this right away, through your Moniker. The "OTL" in your cpotl Moniker, I believe, stands for OTL amps.
NO ONE I know in highest-end audio uses a OTL tube amp. The high end in tube audio is SET, with highly efficient speakers, of at least 98 dB, to capture DYNAMICS with an under 4 Watt SET amp, which is the limit on power versus performance / best sonics. But, alas, I contend very FEW ever know how to build the 2 or 3 Watt SET amp right.
You LOVE to criticize me, at every turn, and you will open your mouth in such a fashion whenever you possibly can.
But you ONLY talk theory, whereas I feel it is the SOUND and audible performance what matters. You miss the fine points, and you are LOST in audio - due to your use of low efficiency speakers and the complex/ugly tube amps that need to drive them.
Oh well, we must respectfully leave room for everyone to be able to comment and express their views. But what I wrote herein is how I have felt about you, for many years. Its really a shame that you have never ever experienced a top-notch stereo set up. It could possibly be educational for you.
About the ONLY low-efficiency set up I can tolerate, is the complete MBL system, with their omni speakers, AND, including their solid state amps. But it must cost $500 K, complete. Lovely to me, to hear at shows, each time they exhibit.
Continue on, my friend.
Jeff Medwin
PS : How many people do we all know, who use SOLID 10 AWG solid copper wire for speaker leads?
Edits: 12/07/16Follow Ups:
Hi Jeff.
I've been reading some of your posts recently and I have to wonder why you are obsessed with an amps bandwidth when you use a speaker that has no low bass and not very extended highs. The VOTT is well known to be a great mid-range reproducer but no amplifier will squeeze sound out of those speakers that they aren't capable of reproducing. Piling extra weight on the box won't extend the bass in the 828 cab and choosing different caps and wiring won't let those highs come through the 802/811 combo.
Dynamics, yes. Full range sound, no. So what's the point?
Not that someone in our age bracket should be concerned about frequency extremes anyway.
Hi,
No one, except ME so far, has ever heard a VOTT can do, with MY amp on it ! :-) I THINK I may have a " NEW Ball Game ", on hand here. But its difficult to be objective with your own builds. We will see, or hear in the near future !!!!
Its taken me three amp builds, last two years, to FINALLY become happy with my ALTECS. Two DC Type 45 amps, which had a broad, shallow mid range suck out, ( no one wants to acknowledge ), and now, this JJ 2A3-40 as a final and, at last, an enjoyable solution.
Kyle, even if we only hear narrow band, as we age, the amp has to be able to play the highs realistically and honestly, for us to hear the MIDRANGE properly.
I feel there are resultants on high, that come down the scale into the midrange. As we age, we hear those resultants, and judge easily what sounds real or canned.
I recall Bob Fulton, in about 1983 give or take, tell me about an 80+ year old woman on his Listening Panel, who couldn't hear a watch tick, and had 'nada above 5K. One day, Bob removed the fuse from is tweeter section's highest-playing driver, maybe, lets say, 32 K on up to 100K, and the Old Woman blurted out to Bob " What Happened To The Highs ".
See Kyle, we aging "experienced listeners" have hope !! :-)
Merry Christmas.
Jeff Medwin
I totally agree with you as regards the importance of a good HF response, even for those of us with old ears, but in the end, the speaker has to be able to reproduce those frequencies, not just the amplifier. Albeit, the amp has to be able to drive the speaker, of course. I am only saying that there are many discussions here, some led by yourself, that seem to pivot on the amplifier as the be all and end all.
The Fulton Premiere speaker, depending upon year and model number, had a frequency response of 12HZ to 100 KHz, and it was likely one of the widest bandwidth speakers ever engineered.
The saying " amps are the weakest link ", is not originally mine, but was that of Robert W. Fulton, to me, in many conversations. Just as was " an inch of bad wire can ruin the musical experience ". In both cases, IMHO, RWF was right on.
Jeff
Right on jeffery!! thats why I am building gm70 to power my large fultons :)
.
Dear Jeff,
You wrote, "NO ONE I know in highest-end audio uses a OTL tube amp. The high end in tube audio is SET, with highly efficient speakers, of at least 98 dB, to capture DYNAMICS with an under 4 Watt SET amp,..."
The part about "no one in highest-end audio" is preposterous. You really mean "no one with whom I closely associate myself and my work, and no one I deify". (Of course, I freely admit that I use OTL tube amps myself, so naturally I would be offended by your declamation.) Even assuming that Nirvana lies only in the direction of hyper-efficient speakers, who is to say that one could not use an OTL to drive such speakers. Such speakers are optimally high in impedance, which suits both SET amplifiers and OTL amplifiers just fine. I certainly do respect and am interested in SET amplifiers; why do you retreat behind such a gross generalization? It doesn't make you look good.
Now, I really do not give a rat's butt what you think about what I like in audio, so can you just go ahead and say what you meant by your allusion to bandwidth in a ground buss and how you think stranded wire might be superior to solid core in this regard? Thanks.
Hi Lew,Its taken me a long time, the last ten years, and over 60 years of audio listening, to get BACK into the high efficiency camp. I use a 515B and 802D, in a modded VOTT enclosure.
The less we mess with the signal, the better of a chance we have to keep it intact.
As soon as you "split phase", we have a degrade in the tube amp. That rules out P-P and OTL amps from being the best possible. As soon as we parallel tubes we get a choir effect. So Lew, these are the things that come to my mind, (and to my ear), when I hear and aspire to obtain a proper system.
Amps, NOT SPEAKERS, are the biggest turkeys and weakest link in audio. Darn FEW SETs, BTW, are listenable / acceptable to me.
Lew, have you ever heard any 2A3 amp, over time, in a carefully set up system, that Mr. Dennis Fraker built? Probably not. THEN, you would understand, where I come from !!
It took ME ten years, of going to RMAF shows each year, and listening to Dennis' builds, to figure this all out. My new present amp, BTW, I feel will GET me where I wanna be. It IS Dennis' design ideas, and it replaces two sucked-out midrange SET DCed 45 amps I previously self-designed, built, and used for 2015-2016 !!I am excited and pleased as punch.
Jeff
Edits: 12/07/16
in a ground buss?
There is much to discuss with respect to PP, OTL, speakers vs amplifiers, but I know very well where you stand on those issues, and I have no interest in trying to change your mind. Each of us has a bias, or several biases.
Jeff if what your saying is true about PP tube or SS why did Robert Fulton use it?
His best amplifier (locker amplfier) was a PP tube type!
I will also say that his knowledge and understanding was far greater then me you or most people agree?
Single ended does sound different not necessary better but different
best amp so far i used with my big fultons HK430!!!
I am almost done building a prototype of my gm70 pset driven by HK430's preamp
Lawrence
Fulton's 'locker' amp was a rather mundane AB1 rig, right down to its global dose of NFB.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Fulton: If it didn't play music I believe he would have never used this mundane lame amplifier like you say LOL
and you knew Robert how?
more interestingly, what would be your ideal amplifier? comparing to this lame ab1 amp Fulton used??.
Lawrence
It does seem rather useless to go into PP vs. SE. If you like SE, and are OK with the significant power limitations then go right on. One, I can't live with the power limitations, and 2, don't like the way it sounds...LOL Add to this all the silliness about it needing just the right PS to work well...it clearly is a lot more variable than Class A done with PP. I'll leave the religious fanatic objections, posed by folks who like SE presentation about 'splitting' phase where they belong, on the cutting room floor...:)
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
Robert Fulton struggled mightily to find amps. He had me build a tube amp, just the two of us, all-out.Robert and I agreed, had many conversations, that amps are the weakest link. If a Harmon Kardon 430 receiver is your current reference, so be it. Glad you are satisfied. I've had the dance and walked the walk with Fulton speakers, etc., and I am happier NOT using them in 2016.
With this November 2016 amp, I now get the best sound I've had, and am very pleased. It will get better as I refine the new circuit.
If you had my direct experience with Fulton, you may have come to my present conclusions. But no doubt - I still do LOVE Robert, to this day !!
Jeff
Edits: 12/07/16
> > Amps are the weakest link < <
Jeff,
What sources do you use and what is your preferred source material? Vinyl, CD, MP3, Reel to Reel? Does the front end not mean as much as the amplifier? I got out of vinyl because it can be a rabbit hole...just wondering about your thoughts on front end and whether it makes any real difference.
I had an interesting front-end experience lately.
Just take this for what it's worth!:
I decided I wanted to do another audio show, but wanted to
this time, play vinyl. Since the forest fire out here wiped everything
out including all vinyl and associated gear, I was starting over.
AND-- I was short on dough, but wanted world class sound-- .
What to do! First, I had been collecting vinyl at thrift stores and
antique parlors. Got some great music-- even some LP's that were both
great music and in playable condition! I have been collecting vinyl.
I had to clean it up- so I got some record-wash solutions and pads from MO-Fi-- I could afford those and scrubbed the records clean using these tools, and clean, filtered water from my new well.
I didn't have time to build a great phono stage, so I went with a well-designed kit, and modified it as it was assembled. Better wire, better parts, and some parts re-locations.....
I needed a good Turntable, but wasn't into acting like a rich fool--, so
I bought Pioneer's reworked modern version of the old Technics Direct Drive. I knew I HAD to have Direct-Drive-- I preferred digital to my VPI setups because, compared to Hi-Res digital, they sounded nice, polite, and no fun at all.
I was playing with the Pioneer when The Vinyl Junkie came over. He has mega-bucks in his system, and likes it. He said only one thing about the stock Pioneer TT: "it sure plays right up-front!"
Ah, Hah! My sentiments exactly. The thing can ROCK!
So, I decided to modify it until I liked it. It had a "soup-can" slight coloration, so I sent the tonearm to SME for a tonearm wiring re-fit. I also scored an SME headshell that was out of its box (cheaper!), and I got a nice set of SilverSonic headshell wires for it. I got gold-plated litz in the tonearm.
I then set up the tonearm's bearings, and set up with a new Clearaudio V-2 Maestro cartridge, and I found an old granite slab which had been part of an old waterwheel powerplant's switchboard.. It fit right under the TT plinth, and gave it a solid platform.
Although this was a budget TT setup-- it really sounds very, very good!
Anyone can do this, and it's a great-sounding front-end that will bring
your music to life.
--Dennis--
Interesting. I figure, if you had a great amp, those other things would not be that important.
The better the amp, the more obvious any other defects.....
Anyhow, good to see you're still here and still at it!
-Dennis--
I never make any claim that OTL amps are the "highest end" end in audio. And certainly SET amps are not the "highest end" in audio either.
I criticise when I see people making pseudo-scientific technical claims that are either incorrect or that are misleading on the grounds of the insignificance of the alleged effect. I put many of your claims about wire into one or other of those categories.
I don't know where you get the idea that I use low-efficiency speakers, unless your idea of high efficiency is very different from mine. I use Lowther drivers, which are a little bit over 100dB efficiency. In my book, that would qualify as high efficiency.
Since you seem to think that the bandwidth capability of solid 10 AWG copper wire is significantly lower than for silver-plated 37/26 stranded wire, perhaps you would care to enlighten us all with a quantitative estimate of the differences that would be expected in an audio amplifier?
Chris
FenderLover puts on funky moderator hat...Can we keep the argument to implementation of wires? Per the original post. Pretty soon you two will be arguing about the cars you drive. Wine you drink. Women you feel are pretty & ugly.
Thanks!
Hat removed...
8^)
Edits: 12/07/16
You are correct, 100%. I just got fed up at ten years of his nagging, and snapped a little. I am sure Chris gets fed up with my posting also. :-) Fun. I should ignore him.
I am re-doing the new 2A3 DC amp's driver stage shorter Rk wiring, for a third time, in the days and weeks ahead, to include proper multiple film cap bypassing, so the amp plays music linearly to my ear. THATs the next chore.... a big one. Executing the Rk bypass cap function PROPERLY and linearly. Its never one film cap, usually about six in parallel!!
Maybe I'll post a photo as it progresses some and gets interesting to view, or instructive.
Jeff
Photos are always nice. Worth a thousand (or more) words.8^)
Edits: 12/07/16
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