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In Reply to: RE: Where does the current come from? posted by Triode_Kingdom on August 27, 2012 at 05:44:21
The theory is entirely valid - if there is no audio frequency energy across the cap, it cannot be responsible for coloring the sound. If we can't get past that statement, further discussion on this point is probably useless.
So what you seem to be saying is that if anyone disagrees with you, then further discussion is pointless.
I don't accept that in the case we're discussing, in fact in any case that is similar, that there would be no audio frequency energy across the cap. There always is and therefore the cap will affect the sound.
cheers,
Stephen
Follow Ups:
"I don't accept that ... there would be no audio frequency energy across the cap."
You're absolutely correct! I'm trying to establish a starting point though, a place from which to launch a more meaningful discussion. If the cap is perfect and no audio voltage appears across it, it cannot color the amplifier's sound. Can we agree on that?
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
Is there any way to make this usefully converge so it can be discussed? Not just "observe phenomena + hypothesize" vs. "must integrate Knowns"--can we even bound electrical stuff?
I'm no EE, but I assert that useful boundaries are (a) pole-pig and (b) RF/EMI on back-EMF as psychoacoustically-perceived.
Or, as my boss might say--"Hey--anything we can cook by Friday that models this--but I don't wantcha to spend much time on it".
What does it take? What do you do in your first-hour--if that's "call Andy and ask for psyscho-acoustic experts" then out with it.
I have no answers w/o further bounding, but if there's a place left in the bitstream where such might be openly-discussed, it's here (Psst: Thanks Dan, Sponsors-All!)
Everything else is just sharing experiences which is also imminently valuable to soldiering in the dark, just less-illuminating.
Edit: Well, sure-enough, by the time a post could be responded-to, all-opportunity for discussion was gone.
Again.
is this big enough?
I'll bite.
Sure, but to extrapolate that to the closer you get to the ideal, the better off you are puts the whole thing on thin ice at best.
dave
I'm afraid I have a personal issue on agreeing with that. I can't do non real world hypothesis. I just don't see the point and my brain won't allow me to make the that step.
I'd like the discussion to be relevant to Dave's sim. 0 impedance caps don't fit into that as far as I can makeout.
cheers,
Stephen
"I can't do non real world hypothesis."
So why are you involved in a discussion of theoretical concepts?
"I'd like the discussion to be relevant to Dave's sim."
It is. You're just not paying attention.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
"I'm afraid I have a personal issue on agreeing with that. I can't do non real world hypothesis. I just don't see the point and my brain won't allow me to make the that step.
I'd like the discussion to be relevant to Dave's sim. 0 impedance caps don't fit into that as far as I can makeout."
But Dave's answer doesn't fit into the sims.
"Having excessive capacitance as the last element really seems to exaggerate the overall flavor of the capaitor. While a 30 mic solen might get a little aggressive, 200 mics of solens, rips my head off. a 40 mic asc is very musical with just a hint of romance. 200uf of ASC's covers the music in corn syrup."
It seems to me that you want it both ways.
"Anyone who thinks they're building amps that are faithful to the input are IMHO, deluding themselves. It's just more honest to admit we're building happy music machines...."
Human perceptions are delusional. A bunch of synaptic firing, only partly based on the sound pressure impinging on our ears.
To judge sound, the listener has to train his ears (learn to be objective) and be very familiar with the sound of the original instrument. To just say "it sounds good" or "it's very musical" is almost completely meaningless. What we want to know is, does it sound like the original instrument. Not if it is pleasing or "musical".
"0 impedance caps don't fit into that as far as I can makeout."
There are no zero impedance caps. The reactance of a given value cap is known and can be measured. That is the very thing that does fit into Dave's sim.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
This is very simple. Someone porposed that a bigger cap would have a lower Z and therefore cause less of an issue than a smaller cap. Dave said his experience was otherwise and so seemed to contradict theory. Wouldn't be the first time. That cap then went to a zero Z cap which is a nonsense as I already said. Anyhoo, that doesn't deal with the change in inductance in the sim we're talking about.
The notion that you propose that we are trying to make a recorded instrument sound like the instrument recorded is, as I said, IMHO, not the same thing for all people. My bet is the recording engineer didn't even try to do that in the vast majority of cases. Some people shoot for one part of it, some another. No one gets it all. Everyone is biased even tho some, especially some round these parts, won't admit it. As such all are only trying to make a music machine that works for them, that suit them and dare I say it, makes them happy. To have some "higher aim" than that is IMHO, delusional.
cheers,
Stephen
I recorded a Jazz combo once.
Drums, bass, guitar, sax and piano.
I used a pair of U67s in a Blumlein.
After moving the players (and piano) around to get a natural balance between instruments, I recorded straight to a ATR102. No eq, compression...nothing.
Probably the best (most real sounding) recording I have ever been involved with.
I think if you were there that day and could hear the sound of the band in the studio and here the mic feed and then the playback, you would change your mind about a few things.
But I could be wrong.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I'm not talking about the 1% of recordings made the way we would like. I'm talking about the 99% deal; how most recordings are made. Life is too short to only seek out stuff recorded how we would like although that sort of thing can be handy.
I don't think it's about changing my mind. We all get a different view on the same event and that's life. That's all I'm saying.
cheers,
Stephen
I tend to side with it all sounding as true to the original unamplified sound as possible, including the full dynamic expression.
I don't like the idea of building "nice sounding" SE amps, thats what most are, and they are really not amps, but rather, tuners. I only want an honest, real-sounding amplifier.
Cheers and good bye,
Jeff Medwin
"I only want an honest, real-sounding amplifier."
You'll never achieve that with a JUPS. Real amps need real power supplies, supplies that have the guts to go the distance and the reserve to backup every nuance of dynamics required by the output stage. Everything you believe in is in fact the antithesis of that, circuitry designed only to produce controversy.
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Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.
TK,Baloney, pure unadulterated hogwash.
"Get real" you say ?? I am "VERY real" compared to you, the theorist.
So you say to us your large final caps and amps with 145 Ohm DCR chokes to finals are good design, ....EHH ???.
That is like you telling me "in scientific theory" there is no such thing as the Grand Canyon, (from your home in OZ), but yet, when I was a kid, I stood on the rim and peered out in awe. I know from my direct experiences, you are incorrect.
I have BUILT both power supply types, and heard them BOTH. You have not!
You are grossly mistaken : your THEORY versus reality.
Jeff Medwin
Edits: 08/28/12 08/28/12
But if you get that 1% right, the rest will be what they are, not what you may want them to be, but what they are.The other 99% are wrong, but they're not all wrong in the same way.
You can't tailor a system to compensate. If you 'correctly' compensate for one recording, the other recording will all be wrong.
That's what I mean by "chasing our own tails".
It would never end. There's no hope of ever getting it right.
I just want to hear what's on the recording.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 08/27/12
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