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I was very interested in buidling a Zalytron kit. I have read old posts and everyone says that building a DIY alwasy sounds better than a mass produced speaker.
I was wondering is anyone has built a Zalytron kit.
How does it sound?
Did it exceed it's expectations?
Which model did you purchase?
Was it hard to build? Was it worth it?
Will you buy again?Any and all responses will be much appreciated.
Thank you for your time.
Follow Ups:
Don't see a link to them anymore but they are in the printed catalog. Better than anything I have heard like Dynaudio's reference Eminence, Thiel, B&W 801, Watt Puppy's and whatever the new one is, proac's and more. I am going to replace the Focal tweeters with Raven R2 and rework the xover to fit. I like the accuton tweeters (very liquid and smooth). I have heard them in Linn's speakers. I favor the spaciousnous of the high end ribbons even though they can be too detailed sometimes.
So the exceedingly cute child is there to distract us from the quality of your electronics, then? ;)Hu
Uh.. Linn does not use Accuton drivers.... Venture, Kharma, Avalon, Lumenwhite, and a few others do though.
My very first pair of high-end speakers were Zalytron MTM speakers with a pair of SEAS mid-bass drivers in each and a Morel MDT-33 tweeter. These speakers sounded excellent-- very detailed. I also listened to several other models of his, including the more expensive Aria 5, which my friend owned. I will say that, at first, I thought they were marvelous and I pledged to NEVER AGAIN BUY another commercial.... dot dot. HOWEVER, I realized, as I bought more and more different pairs of speakers and compared them, notably the LS3 5a and Dynaudio and Quads and Spendors and Proac and etc.., I found the Zalytron speakers to be very-- detailed. Yes. Very detailed indeed. They imaged great. HOWEVER, the better "commercial" models I have owned, such as Totem Model 1's and my current JM Reynaud Twins are (and were) more coherent, have more spot-on tonality and just play plain music more musically.
Zalytron's formula is--- Take extremely expensive drivers (wholesale of course!)--- put them in a VERY THICK, well-built box and then get a famous man to design a cross-over. Sounds great, right? Except if it were that simple, everyone would have a perfect recipe for speakers-- there would be no real need to shop around-- just throw money at the drivers and box and use a computer for the crossover and PRESTO!! Then why do the top speaker designers at say, B&W or JM Reynaud or Merlin spend so much time and effort tweaking and refining and changing wires/drivers/crossovers/many parts of the equation? Because they've got too much time on their hands and just cant find Zalytron's phone number over in the states????
NOOOOOO!! Because the simple fact is that it is VERY DIFFICULT to design an excellent speaker. It is not a matter of buying a great Focal midrange, great accuton tweeter etc. and having Elliot bust his knuckles on a box 3 feet thick. So while some of Zalytron's speakers offer excellent value indeed, many simply do not possess the organic completeness of many excellent "commercial" speakers. And I aint talkin' bout Bose here-- I am talking about Merlin etc.
Ever wonder why you dont see hardly ANY accuton or Focal kevlar or whatever Zalytrons top drivers are this month in many companies pricier models? Hint: it aint because, as he says, they are too expensive. These guys, like Bobby at Merlin and Jean-Marie at Reynaud charge THOUSANDS for their top products. They certainly could use these drivers and make their box "THE THICKEST." They've been at this a lot longer than you and I and you dont think such things have occured to them?
The fact is, it is too hard to integrate some of these "wonderful" tweeters and "space-age" woofers into a cohesive, musical unit. That's why we all dont have plasma tweeters in our system. This tweeter was PHENOMENAL. Good luck finding a woofer to mate with it.
So if you want a good speaker for not a lot of cash, some of Zalytron's (or Madisound's for that matter) cheaper speakers put up a good fight in the budget category. But as you move up in cash, your money would be better spent on the products of designers who possess a single unifying vision of speaker design, causing them, in pursuit of said vision, to optimize each parameter carefully toward that end. Not on a thick box with "great" drivers and a famous guy somewhere who has a great idea for a crossover.yours in the dharma,
HU
Yes, you invested heart soul and brain into them, and love the result. This is af course, what audio is all about.Just be aware, like the new mom and dad who think their baby is the cutest ever, don't expect others to hear the perfection you do.
Which is why I think it must be very hard to be a nascent hi-end designer.
Happy Listening
Elliot once told me (years ago) that if you really want your speakers to sound great it takes hard work!I agree. His designs sound good but are not the most elegant solutions. Ask him to demo a pair of his speakers next time you’re in Long Island. He will begrudgingly hook them up, run into the back room, come out 20 minutes later hoping you’ve left, turn the music on and meekly stand there as your face cringes, eyes blink and ears wonder why they sound the way they do. Then you will tell him there’s too much treble or bass or that the image is flat – and he will tell you these are the best components and yours are bad and you don’t know what you’re talking about.
He once sold me speakers using his branded drivers. I opened them up to find each crossover used different cap values to the tweeter. He told me he ran out and used the closest match and that I wouldn’t hear a bit of difference.
His cabinets are very thick and solid. His veneer is not always flat on the box. Yours may bubble like the ones he has on display. By his own admission, if you want your speakers to sound great it takes hard work!
Peace,
Godzilla
Yeah, that is not a new idea.Dissing Zalytron or Madisound or any of the speaker houses over their creations ain't helping the DIY or consumers any.
And I guess you need to understand that some of that wires/xover/tweaking by the commercial houses is towards optimizing price margins to performance, not strictly performance. (At least thats why they sell Hot Rod or SE or MkII or Whatever versions).
Don't forget there are commercial offerings in the same price range of the marks you promote that are no better performers than the Zalytron offerings you dis.
Also Merlin does not shy away from expensive or difficult drivers in their VSM series. They go for what $6500. So they are able to do the expensive driver and good xover for about 5x what a speaker house will charge.
So your point is that, one can not stuff drivers in an enclosure and expect good sound. I agree that applys to speaker kit houses and commercial units alike. The good news with speaker kit houses is a that the fundimental parts used are usually of superior quality for the price paid, and you actually can easily learn to improve them.
But then again your point is to inflame than to inform I think.
I think I'd like both to inflame and inform, yea-- though I do not "dis" ma good brutha DIY'ers in general. Just the notion that one can build a speaker on the order of say, the JM Lab Utopia (star of the thread beneath us) by buying the sandwich w drivers from Focal or Kimon Belles or whoever at like a thousand bucks a pop and by CAREFULLY designing an enclosure, using high quality parts up the yin yang etc. To say you can do this means you are some kind of sick genius with a Beautiful Mind. How come?
Cause this means that you can do, by some calculations on your pc and by dint of a few thousand bucks and some words to the wise from the always (brilliantly) personable Elliot Zalyet, what people with 30 or 40 years in the business, state of the art cad-cam programs and in house machining to their own damn specs cannot. Is it possible?
Sure. you might be a smarter speaker designer with just your few beers and your PC and your SEAS Odin kit tweaks (I'll just put a Hovland here-- and a Black Gate here and YES THATS IT!!!! I'll call it JM BLAB!! I'll make a mint!!) than John Bowers or Spencer Hughes or Bobby Palkovic (however the good sir spells it).And I am Miss Loretta Lynn. Do not anger my organ.
Hu
You must have some axe to grind about the folks at Zalytron and something you bought. I'm sorry your experience didn't work out for you.Story ends here for me. You've got 12 minutes left.
Have you dealt with Zalytron much? If you have, you would be asking me what planet those boys are from. It's life Jim-- but not as we know it.HuJorgen (and easy on my organ please)
Nope. Oh, I do have a few Cad programs and crossover sim programs and a small anechoic chamber, nothing like the big boys have but they do help quite a bit. I chose to build this kit mainly to start off with a fairly well designed crossover that with which I could do what I wanted to. I am going to stop worrying about this and go listen to my speakers that are without a doubt in my mind much better than any speaker in the world, even the ones that haven't been built yet. I'm talkin way better than anything those French morons could build. Yo Yo Ma was over the other day and he said that his recordings sounded better on my speaker than when he played them live. Bach wrote me an e-mail asking if he could come over to listen for awhile. I'm just trying to get Herbie Hancock to come over so that I can convince him that my superior speakers sound better than the B*se Wave Radio..
If Herbie Hand COCK thinks they are--- then they are.
HuJorgen
I built my own speakers for nearly 20 years, and have to agree with you, Hujorgen. I learned (among other things) that the heart and soul of loudspeaker design is the crossover, and that a good designer could do more with $200 worth of parts than I could do with $1000 worth of parts. Also, most high-end designers have drivers customized to their specifications so they integrate with one another well.Still, knowing all this doesn't stop me from dabbling.
Dabble, dabble.
Thank heavens SOMEONE has seen the light of my organ!!!!
Hu (Jorgen)
You have the ability to tweak the crossover to YOUR liking, that is of course if you have the knowledge and equipment to do so, which I do. Hu, why do those manufacturers stay in business? Profitability! Merlin offers a superb product, I agree. I've heard DIY speakers that have used the same S-S driver and Dynaudio tweeter that I've liked more that the Merlins. I've compared these DIY MTM's (with some slight crossover mods) to my previous commercial speaker that I gave to my father, Audio Physics Virgos $$$. A very musical speaker indeed, I along with others agreed that the MTMs were more involving and had equal tonal balance (coherance). The simple fact is that I've spent under $1000 on a pair of speakers that I had the best time building (I built the cabinets) and I (I repeat "I" me my me me me they are MY speakers) love listening to them even though they cost 1/5 of my last comercial speaker.
There can be no argument from me (or from my Orgen) on this account. There are certainly excellent DIY speakers to be had and built. I have heard several. It helps to know what you're doing though. Still, if it's my wacky friend who's "really into this speaker building thing, dude!" vs. say, Professor Linkwitz or Jean-Marie Reynaud, I think I'll take the latter (almost) every time.Hu (Jorgen)
that Jean-Marie and Linkwitz are not magicians, what they are is really really great at DIY. They've studied speakerbuilding enough to know how to make great sounding speakers and they've studied business enough to realize that to manufacture speakers successfully one should use the least costly items in order to arrive at that speaker in order to increase profitability. I wonder what they could do with exotic drivers like true ribbon tweeters and plasma tweeters. Have you had the chance to hear the Meadowlark Nightingale? Plasma tweeter and it sounds phenomenal. Pat McGinty is a great designer and he started out as a DIYer. DIY is fun and much cheaper than commercially available equipment. I believe that with the proper knowledge a DIYer can put together a speaker that suits their own needs and spend maybe ten times less than if he searched for that magic speaker in the Hi Fi shop.
Zalytron has a variety of speaker/driver lines including ribbons, so and many different types of designs from ported to sealed, arrays, TL's etc, so generalizing about "Zalytron" speakers is a little unfair. I own a pair of their Aria 5's, (recent, upgraded wire, crossover, etc) and they are hard to beat for the dough. They are efficient enough to use with tubes, and robust enough to play dynamically. BTW, the drivers ARE too expensive for all but the highest cost speakers. Sometimes you can find companies that don't require huge overheads, such as VMPS using them. If a mass-market company like Infinity sold these they would be $2,500.00. If B+W had to make them in England and ship/distribute to the US they would be $2,800.00! Look at powered subs on the market, you get a $30-40 woofer and a $85-90.00 amp in a $500.00 sub.
When you buy a pair of speakers for $1,000.00 at a dealer, they were probably around $650.00 DELIVERED, so they left the factory for around $600.00. There will absolutely not be more than $150.00 cost in drivers in that pair in a big company. I think that's why "Cloning" is on the rise.
ACI is a company that offers phenomenal parts quality and enclosures, and represents a "best buy" as well. They do not require the margins of a publicly-owned mass-market company, so they don't have a roomful of accountants sitting around trying to make their stuff cheaper.
So the more you spend on the drivers, the better the speaker must be. So all i need to do to get the best speaker in the world then is give Zalytron a call and order up their FINEST drivers and their THICKEST boxes. Will do. To think-- I've been listening to 8 dollar woofers all this time! That must be the problem. (it DEFINITELY is if you ask Elliot). It's just-- my friends Arias had the accuton tweeter and outboard crossovers with all kinda fancy components and DAMN they imaged amazing!!! That was about the extent of it.I'm gonna give Vince Bruzzese over at Totem and Carl Marchisotto over at Alon a call. Wait till they hear they could build a MUCH better product than theirs just by putting super-expensive Raven tweeters and Cabasse woofers (at 800 bucks or so the pair) in a couple of 10 inch thick boxes. They'll be stupified as to why they've been spending so much time designing these damn el cheapos. Oh, and PSB in Canada wont be needing that state of the art anechoic chamber and NASA level computer set-up they've been using. I mean, with an 8 dollar woofer (or thereabouts) what could they hope to accomplish? They need some accutons!!!
Incidentally, I spoke to the owner/designer guy at ACI a while ago. I have heard (and I like the Saphire 3 a lot). I asked him some of these questions. He said just about what I'm saying, (though less sarcastically than I've said it). He also said he found it very difficult to design properly coherent speakers with some of the "fancier drivers". He said that the drivers were all very good in their own right--great measurments-- but just didnt integrate into his designs well. That's kind of the problem with miss america too-- great measurments, buuuuut.....But Joe D'Appolito (?) is MUCH more famous and I'm sure he can do it better.
your friend in sound,
HU
OH,So those with the most expensive design facilities win. Wow, did not know this. Maybe you should call JBL to and see why they build such shi#@Y souding speakers (some are ok, I admit). I mean with all the resources at Harmon's disposal can't they do a little better? Hell, big company like that, and where are they sold . . . Best Buy! Hmmm...
Oh, and many PSB speakers are directed at the budget-phile and will not sound as good as Merlin, Proac's etc. Geez, better call these guys and tell they need some more expensive computer systems, anechoic chambers etc. How are they going to make anything decent if they don't have NASA like facilities.
Oh, and to build the ACI Sapphires is about $650. Is there anything from a commercial manufacturer that will sound as good for even twice as much . . . I doubt it. But that's just my opinion.
There are many examples of DIY kits that are routinely compared to much more expensive commercial offerings, let's see: GR Research Paradox 1's, 3's, AV1's; ACI Sapphires/Emeralds/Jaquars/Titan; Adire Audio HE10.1's and all thier subs; VMPS . . . etc. etc. etc. etc.
Point is, it's nice to know that we (we DIY'ers) can build something (close to high end offerings) for a fraction of the cost. If you have $2500 - $100000 to buy those high end systems, by all means, go for it. For all us average income Americans, the alternative looks very nice indee. Build em'.
I agree with a lot of your points, but there are plenty of great (and expensive) speakers that use Accutons and Ravens, in good and bad implementations. The reasons why they can be hard to use gets very technical and I won't bother writing about it here.. however Alon does use the Ravens by the way. Check the flagships from both lines. :)
Greetings,One quick thought to consider: Dr. D'Appolito is a (mostly) independent consultant who has designed many, many loudspeaker systems. If he were cut loose to devote the kind of time and resources that some of the big players lavish on their top-flight speaker systems, then I have no doubt that he would be able to better even his existing outstanding designs, and give the best-knowns a very good run for their money.
Remember, if Zalytron charges a reasonable price for their speaker kits, and if they're amortizing their design costs over a reasonable period of time, then they simply can't put that much investment into system development and refinement. Along with Joe D'Appolito, they deserve credit for doing as well as they have, with the limited resources available to them. (That's just my opinion, by the way - I have no association with these people.)
Best,
MAP
Joe D'Appolito is paid by Elliot to whip up a design. Not do serious R&D or testing.Also the mfgring cost of many mainstream loudspeakers is 1/9th the retail cost.
if you say that the Twins are better than any of theirs. I've heard the Twins and found them OK, but certainly lacking compared to other fine monitors that I have heard.
Cut-Throat
Again I spoke too soon. Looked up your system and all is forgiven. You're one of those DIY Paradox GR (or whatever it is) Cult People (DPGCP's for short). In fact, I think you're their unofficial leader or something, right? Thank God you dont like my speakers. I did something right.Hu (humbly)
You know-- I've been thinking, Throat. Maybe it's the damn 8 dollar woofers in 'em, eh?
Just curious as to what other "fine monitors" you have heard and found superior. I am sure I must've owned a few these fine ones myself. Which ones were they?
I have very recently built a Focal kit that uses drivers that can be found in JM Labs Utopia line of speakers. It wasn't hard to build if you are mechanically inclined and have access to woodworking tools. The crossovers in this speaker were designed by Joe D'Appolito. I have a very close friend that works at a Hi Fi shop I took my speakers in to compare then to wilson audio verity audio and audio physic speakers. The DIY speakers kept up with all and surpassed some of the speakers from these very high end mfgrs. They cost me $575(+$50 to have Elliot @ Zalytron router the driver recesses in the baffles). The pic shows the test boxes I made for them, the final boxes are floorstanders with sidewall thickness of 2.25", all other walls 1.5". I simply built around the test boxes to make the floorstanders. The bottom portion of the cabinet that is not being used for the drivers is filled with 160lbs. of sand to insure a VERY acoustically dead 245lbs. cabinet. I will NEVER buy another comercial speaker, these were so cheap for the level of performance they offer and it has been really fun building them.
The only Focal tweeters with "Utopia" technology they offer to the public are the TN51 "car audio" tweeters($179/pair)and Audiom TD5 ($500 EACH!). They both have strong neodynium magnets and Telar 57 pole pieces like the true Utopia tweeters.
I should have stated that only the woofers are similar to the Utopia line
I've heard the Utopia-like tweeters and found them to be a little to hot for my listening tastes. The tioxide coting on the TC120Tdx2 IMO "relaxes" the sound which is more to my tastes. I can use less crossover components on the TC120 to achieve my desired "sound"
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