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standmounted speaker that is better than Elac B5. I like the B5 better than the B6. It is impossible for me to audition speakers due to various reasons.
I have been reading reviews of many speakers but I find it is not quite possible to make a judgement of the quality of sound. i do not find the measurements too useful either. JA could write about the sound instead of all those curves for budget speakers.
I have limited the budget to $400. There are Polk, Definite Tech, Wharfedale, PSB, Boston, Monitor Audio, Klipsch et al. I feel Dali Zensor 1 may be better than the others For me the lower point of 40Hz or 50 Hz is irrevelent. Female voice should be very good. In general sound should not be recessed and polite. Rock music should sound clear. And most of all the sound should not be bright.
The room is 13x11x9. Will not play loud.
If possible I would like the speaker to be not made by slave labor.
I know there is Elac UB5 but dont want to spend $500.
I would like suggestions from you and thanks.
Best Wishes
Bill
Follow Ups:
I live in an area where it's very difficult to audition equipment as well, so I feel your pain. Therefore, I try to pay attention to the tendencies and products each reviewer likes or dislikes and see if their impressions coincide with my experiences. For example, Stereophile's JA tends to like compression driver speakers such as the K2 while KR has had a B&W reference system forever. I have JBL's and B&W's so it appears our sensibilities coincide, therefore I'll pay a bit more attention to their recommendations.
As for your budget and speakers, all anyone can give you is an opinion and in this hobby, the only opinion that matters is yours. That said, I saw a pair of Von Schweikert VR-1's on USAudiomart that might work for you. I'm listening to a pair in my office as I type this, so color me biased. I'm a big fan of Albert Von Schweikert's designs over the years and find they work spectacularly well with rock and female vocals. Google it and you'd find a ton of reviews.
Hope that helps and good luck!
Here's another video from Peter B.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
Bill;
Most of us have heard of Decware.
Linked is a video (halfway down the page) of Steve Deckert owner of Decware extolling the virtues of a $350 speaker that he doesn't own/make.
I have a pair of the drivers used in these speakers on order and havnt purchased the standard baffle because I want to make my own fancy baffles.
For the music you say you prefer to listen to these would seem to fit Bill - pun intended.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
None of the subjective opinions here will necessarily coincide with your own tastes and desires. Measurements will tell you something about the the competence of the design but not what it actually sounds like.
So what can you do? You say that for (obscure) reasons you cannot audition speakers. As they are such a personal matter depending upon price, size, room and personal taste that is difficult. I would suggest that you avoid the cheapest offers. They can afford to be cheap as that usually means that there is no service. Try to find dealers that may charge full price for the speaker but will let you return it if not satisfied after a defined period (and if in re-saleable condition - there may be a restocking fee). Then you can audition in your home until you are satisfied.
Otherwise take a pin, close your eyes and stab it at an open page in an audio magazine. Buy that.
is impossible here because the dealers do not stock speakers. Orders are taken and they deliver. There is a shop nearby who can get me KEF and Polk.KEF Q 300 costs $625 and Q100 $550. This is due to the 30% customs duty and shipping.
Cheers
Bill
If that is the case how does anyone buy loudspeakers with confidence in the USA? Do you all read reviews or advertisements, buy unheard and then find yourselves stuck with something that you don't want or like until you can sell it on?
Are you able to get out to audition somewhere, say at a bricks and mortar real audio dealer or an audio show? I only know from your profile that you live in the USA but not where so I don't know how practical this is. OK shows aren't the best place to decide but it is better than nothing even if it involves some travel.
BTW, import duty on loudspeakers into the USA is 3.6%.
The problem is health issues mainly COPD and my doctor has restricted my movements outdoors to avoid exacerbation. I need help from those who have auditioned budget speakers.
Bill
Sorry to hear about your health issues, Bill, but I think that paying attention to other peoples anecdotal opinions on speaker sound is fraught with problems.
You're gonna have audition speaker candidates yourself.
That's the sad truth of the matter.
Best of luck.
SB
Thanks. I am stuck with a birthday present my Bro in law gave me. I simply dont like the sound of that B&W speaker. Being Bro in law's gift I cannot get rid of it for fear of getting hit on the head by my wife!
Cheers
Bill
Bill, I am very sorry to learn that. I can only hope that whatever lifestyle you have had to adopt provides you with a degree of relief.
As for personal experience of budget speakers per se then I must give way to other inmates.
I am sure that you will find what you need.
JA does write about the sound in his own reviews. Reading a number of them should allow you to figure out some correlation between his measurements and reviews. The more you read the better.
And when he isn't the reviewer, he has often listened to the speaker, and he sometimes comments when he feels what he measured or heard does not correlate with what he heard or measured.
Measurements are impartial while subjective comments are from his hearing perspective based on the room environment he's in. Unless you hear exactly like him and your listening environment is exactly like what it is in JA's setup, then you could miss the boat entirely. Do you know if JA's measurements are done in anoechi chamber or measure in such a way to mitigate the effects of the room enviornments? If the measurements mitigate the effects of the room or are taken in anoechic chamber, JA's measurements will tell how a speaker will perform. It takes practise to read the graphs and interpret how that sounds.
" It takes practise to read the graphs and interpret how that sounds."
Unfortunately no matter how good your knowledge is regarding interpreting graphs you will have no idea what the speaker actually sounds like. You will have some idea of how well it is engineered. That is all.
I note in relation to this that you appear to have no idea of how JA takes the measurements. Without this you will be unable to make even basic interpretations of the graphs. I am surprised at this if you are a regular reader of 'phile as JA is meticulous in discussing his test procedures fairly regularly.
Dr. Floyd Toole has said that speakers from different manufacturers with similar curves (not just frequency response curves) will sound very similar to one another. So if you like the sound of speaker A and speaker B has close to identical curves, then speaker B will sound the same.
As to your note about JA, I haven't read an article one of his reviews (no I'm not a regular reader of Stereophile) for a while. I rather ask and make sure rather then blindly stating something that is wrong or not true.
It may be the case for Dr. O'Toole given the highly sophistiacted resources for speaker measurement that Harman International provide him with. He will, no doubt, be in a position to drill down further into the measurement of speaker behaviour than any magazine reviewer. Note, however, that he only goes as far as saying "similar" and not identical.In regard to the opinion that irrespective of measurements the actual sound of a speaker can finally only be judged by listening I am , of course, paraphrasing John Atkinson himself.
Edits: 10/28/16
Thanks for the correction Kal. At least I didn't confuse you as to who I meant.
Competent speaker measurements are usually taken in anoechic chambers or designed to eliminate in room responses. However, these measurements negate the effects of a room's acoustic properties which We all know interacts with a speaker's anoechic response.Please read posts number 51 and 52 and you will see where I'm coming from.
Edits: 10/28/16 10/28/16
With monitor stands. Quite a good budget entry. The ELACs may be better though, but I haven't heard them.
I have Paradigm Titans V4 on Atacama Stands. My Titans were the last 13.5" tall version made before they enlarged them to 17" tall.
I think the Titans are a very good sounding speaker and an incredible bargain for the price. I paid $150 for mine on a closeout when the V5 came out. I bought them as a temporary speaker while my Spendor S3/5's were being repaired. When the Spendors returned, I sold them. The Titans were a better match for the NAD receiver I was using at the time and resolve low level details better than the Spendors. The Spendors were nice on vocals and some acoustic instruments, but the Titans are an overall better speaker (for me).
I have heard the Elac Debut B6's but only in a dealer showroom. They sounded good and I would have taken them home to try. However, I am concerned about their efficiency rating and I don't think they sounded a lot better than my Titans. They are rated at 86db and my Paradigms are 89db. I am currently using a TPA 3116 based amp that puts out only about 15wpc, which I don't think is enough for the Elacs, based on what I have read. The dealer compared the Elacs to some SVS and Martin Logan Bookshelf speakers which cost 2x and about 3x as much as the Elacs. I didn't really like the SVS speakers but I thought the Martin Logans definitely sounded better than the Elacs. I would like to hear the UB5's but have not had the opportunity to do so.
Edits: 10/27/16
Thanks for all the great responses. I live in NYC for only 3 months,in Summer. Rest of the year I am at the Florida of India which is a state called Kerala. The internet shops are very few and do not carry too many audio items. Amazon.in has Elac B5 but costs $600. Cant believe how they can do that. The retailers do not stock speakers but deliver what is ordered. A sale is final, no returns.
I had bought Elac B5 in NY planning to bring it as baggage on the flight. But my daughter liked it a lot and I gave it to her. I had wanted to buy the Zaph SR 71 drivers at $380 but the cabinet maker had a car accident and couldnt work anymore.
Dali Zensor 1 is available for $350 on Amazon.in and I am tempted to order it. I have a feeling it is a musical speaker but shy of Bass which I dont mind. I also feel that Dali may be taking better care of their Chinese workers. I dont know why I feel that way. Only problem would be my American Rock may sound European!
Tough decisions these days.
Best Regards
Bill
Bill,
You say that you live in NYC three months a year, then go on to complain that you find it impossible to audition speakers "due to various reasons".
Huh?
Are you totally physically handicapped or are you a terrorist wanted by the police?
Next time you're in the market to purchase speakers just wait until you're back in NYC and go audition all of the speakers your heart desires. Don't wait until you're in a third world country and then whine about your inability to audition speakers.
SB
In that price range, you either need a sale price or something used, to be honest.I suggest the KEF Q300B on sale at amazon.com. I have personally auditioned these speakers and if you need great female vocals (or any vocals) and superb imaging, then I suggest you look no further. In my honest opinion, you will not find a $400 PAIR of speakers that will touch these. I am a "KEF fan" only because of the Uni-Q driver and how KEF has employed it from speakers costing a few hundred to thousands of dollars. The interesting part is just *how good* the lower-end models are. With a decent amp and source, you will *not know* you're listening to a $400 pair of speakers.
That said, don't expect earth slamming bass. These are a larger bookshelf aka average size standmount. You will probably want a sub at some point, which will cost $500-$600 to DIY a *really* good one. For now, if you get the Q300B's, just don't dial up the bass and push them too hard. You're only going to get so much bass out of a 6.5" diameter driver that's stand mounted and out into the room.
Placement experiments with standmounts is just so much fun - way more fun than getting two friends help you move 200 pound towers on points to different locations.
Anyways, I am rambling. If I had $400 in my pocket, I would get the KEF Q300B and not bother with Polk, JBL, Mission, or any of the other entry-level brands. The Q300B gets you entry to middle-of-the-road *high-end* sound for entry level prices, aka a fair bit better than "mid-fi / hi-fi" level sound, which IMHO, the other choices represent. (Normally just getting out of the mid-fi / hi-fi range takes $1000 to $1500.)
As such, the KEF Q300B represents remarkable value.
I would avoid the KEF Q100B. I found the 5.25" driver to be noticeably more anemic than the larger 6.5".
If you get these I hope you enjoy them. If not, I hope you can return them. If these fail you, I am not sure the other entry level brands will impress... you'd have to audition.
Good luck.
-Presto
Edits: 10/26/16 10/26/16 10/26/16 10/26/16
You cannot do better than the KEFs for only $400 a pair.
They cannot possibly satisfy Bill's criteria 100% (no surprise there), especially not without at least one subwoofer. But at least the mids are pure.
I haven't heard them, but the Chane (formerly ARX) speakers are cheap and well reviewed. Also perhaps, the Philharmonic Affordable Accuracy.The link below might be helpful:
Edits: 10/25/16 10/25/16
You asking for way too much for way too little. Even if you buy used, you'd have a hard time meeting your ALL OF criteria for less than $2000.Within the confines of your budget and stated tastes, the first thing you'll have to forget about is the "not made by slave labor" thing. You WILL buy Asian-made, this is the first sacrifice you'll make on the altar of consumerism.
And if you want a speaker that ROCKS, you can forget about cheap and small standmounts. You'll need a fairly big and efficient speaker, so start thinking about horn-loaded floorstanders like the Cerwin-Vega XLS-12. Unfortunately, even the Asian-made the XLS-12s "budget speakers" go for $400 a piece on Amazon and I'm assuming that you'll need TWO of those, so...
If you really want no slave labor + rocking power, all for under $400, consider a pair of headphones. For that, I would suggest a pair of born-in Brooklyn Grado SR-325e headphones. Then, perhaps, a cheap Cmoy headphone amp from an American eBay vendor such as "biosciencegeek" (no affiliations). Sorry, but this is about as close to your dream as you are going to get for only $400.
Edits: 10/25/16
"Rock music should sound clear"
"The room is 13x11x9. Will not play loud."
I can do that with my stand mounts (Platinum Audio Studio One) in a room of similar proportion.
They play fairly loud well too.
But, they aren't current crop, which I am totally unfamiliar with. So, no suggestions from me other than to consider used speakers. I think the Snell K.5II would be worth a try.
Headphones are a good idea. I wish I still had mine ...I really enjoyed them.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
So smaller speaker that has big dynamics to justice to Rock Music and not be made in third world slave labor countries.
You sir have stumped me. I got nothing.
Bill, would you DIY them? One big advantage is being able to tweak the treble/woofer balance to taste.
The LM-1 speaker kit is definitely within your budget and I think sound really great. Of course I'm the designer, so take that for what it's worth. :-) :-)
I feel safe in saying however that they are completely neutral and that no other speaker I know of is as well documented.
Best,
Erik
There are so many variables to this question it is hard to answer. You have to consider how your electronics will mate with the speakers you choose, room acoustics, musical preferences and so on. I would do what others have suggested and buy online from someone like Music Direct. I have made purchases from them and had to return the item with no questions asked. Listening with your own equipment, own room and music preferences is the only way to find a speaker you can be satisfied with..
I know you said you weren't able to audition, once you've done some research and have an idea of what you might like, are you able to buy online from a place that will allow a 30 or 60 day return window if not happy? Music Direct, Audio Advisor etc. You might also check dealer websites for sales/demo units where your dollar may stretch further.
I have a fondness for PSB Stratus Minis, generally available for $200-300 a pair sometimes including PSB stands, which I find quite handsome. They are capable of being bi-wired and sound better when used in that configuration. They have the port in the front, which means it matters less what's behind them. I bought a pair for a secondary system placed in a bookcase, so I wanted speakers with a front-side port. (I know this is not the best location for them, but space constraints dictate they be used this way.)
I believe they have the sonic characteristics for which you are looking.
Good luck,
George
I hate to say it but when it comes to speakers, or most any audio gear, it all comes down to plugging it into your system and see how you feel about it.
All you can get from a review or recommendation is a VERY broad generalized big picture. How plays out in reality is only just a guess.
Besides how many reviews have you read in the last 30 years that just plain comes out and says "this speaker really sucks". The review IS part of the ad.
Again the best bang for the buck in that range is a kit. But you do need a cabinet. One $400 speaker isn't going to sound a whole heck of a lot different than the other.
Try looking at the Zaph SR-71. One hell of a speaker!!!
Choosing the budget is the easy part - what can your wallet accommodate-
having said this- if you can not listen to the speakers in question- then it comes down to how much risk (cost of returning a pair you don't like/ or reselling the pair that lost)
there are quite a few speakers on the Asylum trader in the stand mount section- that are under $400
and some of what you have mentioned- are there-
next, I would read the reviews from different sites/mags to see which 'sounds' like it will work for you-
I can't recommend a stand mounted speaker because all my small speakers were purchased/made 20+ years ago-
Happy Listening
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