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Tried this combo with an EL34 tube amp (Primaluna Prologue Classic) and, have to say, didn't sound that great. People rave about these speakers with tubes. Not enough power perhaps - it was loud but bass was very mushy and the high-mids were too accentuated for my taste.
In the EL34 configuration the amp is about 35 wpc.
Put the Naim Nait XS back on and it sound SO much better - the music has body, controlled musical bass, and the highs are balanced.
Used NACA5 with the Nait.
I love tubes and tube sound in general, so it's not that I'm not a tube guy. Another thing of note is the Primaluna ONLY sounded good with it's stock tubes - I rolled and rolled with great NOS stuff to no avail.
I saw some test data for the P3ESR and it has a rising impedance curve at the top end. So will it always sound lit up with a tube amp?
Different power tubes? This amp can do kt88/6550. Or should I just stick with the Nait.
Follow Ups:
When everything is right the amp will do 35/ch. Have the tubes been tested, biased? Have you measured the output power to confirm it? Don't assume even if the tubes are new.
That said I had Harbeth HLP3s (similar size driver and box) back in the day with a Citation V (45/ch) and never was happy with the bass until I got an Audio Pro sub. The Audio Pro was a great little sealed sub with two six inch drivers and worked great with the Harbeths.
I'm not sure I'd ever get bass out of a driver that size Id be happy with unless it was in a big box with a labrynth. I also found Harbeth HF like many Brit speakers and tubes tamed them well.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Love mine driven by a McIntosh MC275VI. The Mac is a pretty powerful and full-bodied tube amp with good bass control, and produces some stunning imaging and depth with the Harbs.
I completely agree.
I've recently purged my system of a lot of "high end" cables, sources, cartridges, and am now enjoying it more than ever.
Less variables means better sound. Listenability is key.
It is well-matched and simple, and sounds great. Simplifying the system has resulted in better sound. Using components that were likely designed with the others in mind (i.e. UK-based sources/amp/speakers) and with the same ethos.
Thanks again for your comments.
One thing that you should try is to connect the speakers to the different taps on the output side - of the Rogue (Tube Amp)
While I realize that Output Transformers are 'wound to accommodate specific speaker impedance - that winding is also designed to deliver the rated power into that nominal load.
Changing the taps for a given speaker may deliver a bit more current or voltage - which could make the speaker sing -
I have run my ProAc R-3s on 4 and 8 Ohm taps - and while I prefer the 4, the 8 sounds good also...
Happy Listening
I use my p3's with Quicksilver tube amps and the sound is outstanding. I have tried EL34 and KT88 tubes and I prefer the KT88 with these speakers.
The EL34 is laid back while the KT88 has a bigger more forward sound.
So if you find the EL34 accentuated then I doubt you would like the KT88!
Having owned the original Harbeth LS 3/5A [ Gold Edition ] and P3 both in Ebony, and using them with both EL34 and EL84 based integrated amps with power ranging from 15 - 40 w|pc and felt it drove them nicely, but this was back between the period of 1993|97.
Yet 3 years ago, an ex-friend came by with a pair of the current HL-P3 ESRs under his arm, and once again connected to my newer EL84 based integrated ( 15 w|pc ) it did an excellent job of driving them, but as I hear it........, this line in general seems to prefer solid state amps, and of the tube based systems I've heard driving them or other models in their line were by ones which had more of a solid state signature to them, here I'm referring to the current wares from ARC | Leben | VTL, which to my mind traded off some of the refinement and delicacy of classic sounding tubes, and went after a sense of better bandwidth and resolution if you will.
And lastly........., I've to give credit to Clark Williams ( once of Acoustic Sounds, miss you man ) whom back in 2008, told me that if I loved tubes over solid state gear?, to pursue the Stirling Broadcast LS 3/5a V2's, and only go with the Harbeth line if I was intending on using a solid state amp.........., and to this very day, no truer words have ever been spoken, as well as have proven to be spot on. But as the saying goes........., some will argue otherwise, but there are times where we must each know our own flavor as far as how music should be heard, and then care less what others think, in the end one has to ask themselves if their system moves them emotionally?, and to my mind if it doesn't!, it serves me not.
Only you can tell which method of amplification works with " your ears | gear " and not rely upon others, as more often then not........, you're likely to get several different opinions on said matters, yet all one has to do is trust in how the music moves you, or how your senses repond to what's being played, both your ears and heart are both more then capable of telling you if it sounds | feels right.
And with that, one never has to second guess their own abilities in judging what works for you, no?.
Tubes on LS3/5a's, solid state on Harbeth.
Not a hard and fast rule, but not a bad guideline.
"To Learn Who Rules Over You, Simply Find Out Who You Are Not Allowed to Criticize."
-Voltaire
How true mbnx01,
And this meant a great deal coming from someone, whom I've noticed for years follow said designs, and let's not forget the Audio Space | Falcon or Graham Audio | Chartwell versions while we're all it.
Let's see what the OP has concluded since asking the question, shall we?.
The Croft Micro 25 pre/Series 7 hybrid power amp is a very nice match with the Harbeth P3's, seems to be a combo sold often across the pond.
Hope all is well with you Oscar!
Great combo there Tim.
And, yes we are doing fine, I pray that you and your family are doing as well. And wow..........., no novel.
As always, it's good to see you respond to said post.
Be well little Brotha.
Hi ,
I agree w / you when I had my Harbeth LS3/5A's and 2 pairs of Rogers LS3/5a's all of them 11 ohms . I drove them using my ARC D79B's w/c had KT88's and was surprised how good the bass control is but still w/ the mid range bloom this speakers are known for. The only problem was the D79B's easily over power them and the amp was much bigger physically than the pair of LS3/5a speakers . I prefer the sound of these amp than the other amps that had EL34 , EL84 based amps that sounds colored / caramel flavored w/c at first appeals but becomes boring for me after quite a while. They can't control the bass likewise , it's mushy and bloated . This speakers are popular in Hong Kong. I've sold all of them already but once in a while I miss them. But one thing nice about them is when it's time to sell , there are ready buyers and sometimes earn a small profit. Maybe one day I will get a pair again then sell them when I get bored w/ them .
Mondial
Mondial
Hi Mondial,
While in part I can agree with several of your statements, I can't agree on how " I hear " said EL84 based designs, much like many whom are into the Rose-tinted beauty of 300B based designs where their glory resides in their midband, yet as the top and lower end extremities are much better handled as far as snap, attack and nimbleness of notes by the smaller and more responsive nature of power tubes like 45s | 2A3s | 845s | 611s, it becomes all to clear that certain power tubes merely cover their behinds better then others.
And while KT88s | KT90s and so on do have a better sense of controlling the bass notes, in many ways as I mentioned earlier on, each had more of a slight solid state manner about how the reproduce the music in its entirety, which either one adjusts to, or looks elsewhere.
All I can say is by no means would I say that a minty slightly modded Leak Stereo 20, or my little $3.700 retail Woodham Audio Kalyspo EL84 based designs aren't cable of performing wonderfully with said speakers, especially the earlier 15 Ohm versions, to which are fully broken in, and while they do reproduce vocals quite well, along with more simplified music, as I still believe they become easily confused when presented with more complex music as if they're ready to detach themselves from their stands and like the Lion in the Wizard of Oz, run down the hallway and thrown themselves from the nearest window out of fear of being seen for what they can't do.
In the end, it merely becomes a reality that while I still adore Mini-Monitors on a whole, these days I merely much prefer one that's much better balanced top to bottom, and at least goes down to say 50 - 45Hz, which is nothing more then midbass, but having grown up with three different vintages of ProAc Tablettes in one form or another, as well as two versions of Linn Kans, anything below 70Hz is a blessing as it then relates to a more seamless portrayal of the actual notes which are covered.
But once again, the OP was asking about whether these speakers sound better with Tubes or Solid State?, and in my mind it has to be something from the latter camp, or a hybrid which performs more effectively in said tandem, but I'd be wrong........., yet as it seems that the Leben based gear plays quite well with said Harbeth's, but once again........., I don't hear them as being as tubey sounding as said the wares from either Shindo Labs | Wavac | Line Magnetic Audio, so it then becomes a matter of which compromises the end user is prepared to tolerate more.
Live | Learn | Love it for how it relays the notes, and in the end, it always comes back to how it reproduces the notes, no!.
Hi el34eh ,
Thanks for your reply . Not to hijack the thread by the OP I would like to know w/c speaker is better the Harbeth LS3/5a or the current HLP3ESR ? What are their strength compared to each other & vice versa? I've never auditioned the HLP3 . And I might try one when I have the chance to buy a preowned set when I get the chance to visit Hong Kong.
Btw my sister got her self HL5 Super Plus and she's using the ARC VS55 6550 based Power amp and she's very happy w/ it.
Mondial
Having owned both, I'd say the LS5/a can sound a little purer through the mids, in some systems and on some material. For me that's about it. The P3ESR is a more up-to-date version of the BBC sound, produces cleaner, more extended and more articulate bass and highs and offers remarkable detail through its range, with either SS or tubes. I very rarely listen to the 5as anymore, and may sell them. I've rotated P3s in and out for six years, and always enjoy them, even over larger or more expensive speakers. A modern classic IMO.
Hi Mondial,
You're more then welcome. Yet I can only base things upon how I hear them, as someone whom came into this hobby back in 1982, upon returning to the states after being stationed in Japan for 9 years, as this gave me a boarder means of being educated as to how different cultures do in fact appreciate music from said global perspective, I came to understand the fundamentals of basing the notes themselves as they relate to pitch | tone | timbre | timing abilities and from said point never strayed from said learnings.
In this sense along I'd have to say the Harbeth Acoustics LS 3|5As have a more organic manner of connecting the dots, where everything comes across as having less of a signature as it relates to purity, with an added sense of ease, stillness and silence between and behind each and every note, whereas to my senses the P3 | HL-P3 ESRs, while once again are quite lovely at playing vocalist at the absolute finest, they do come across as less refined when compared to the likes of standard LS 3|5As in this regards.
Yet I'd wager as I've told many friends of late, if one music collection consist entirely of vocal or simplified type recordings, then one can easily appreciate the beauty of any given Harbeth, if driven with the right sort of amp in front of them, but they like all speakers or components for that matter are still compromises, and it then becomes a question of how one wishes to hear them?, as someone whom isn't a bass freak, yet once again does seek at least a nimble, very responsive ability from my Mini-Monitors to have that sense of stopping and starting on dime without any sort of overhang in the mix, so of late I tend to look at designs which offer between 50 - 45Hz, as this serves my music well, seeming that I'm more into acoustic jazz ranging from the recordings from 1953 | 64, with some recorded afterwards by labels such as Dragon | ECM | Enja | CrissCross | SteepleChase | Venus Jazz and plenty others whom offer superior pressings to my ears.
Yet on a slightly different note, if one listens to a boarder genre of music, and doesn't require sub-woofers and the likes?, I'd say that Mini's like the Bonicke W5s | Spendor SA-1s | Neat Acoustics Motive 3SX | Audio Note Model K, all should if nothing else be sampled before committing to the above makes, as I've heard Harbeth's fall apart when asked to play even something so simple as one of Patricia Barber's Smash download, where it was beautifully rendered until she stopped playing the piano, and her band came in..........., it was as if the speakers sat there and became disjointed at the seams and refused to play any further.........., this was not a great way to show a consumer it's worth, and my friend passed on them ( Model 30.1 ) in favor of a pair of Quads.
In the end........., it's more important once again to know which type of amp is going to be used in tandem with any given speaker before hand, as synergy and sonics does not one make over the other, it's the matching of both amp and speakers, later complimented with the right voicing of ones cables is when it all comes together, done wisely.........., one can sit back and enjoy said system for years and years.
Yet if merely based upon ratings here and there, which isn't the way to judge one system........, getting out and listening to the pieces together is far more important, and better still if you can mimic the exact system you've heard and loved right down to the cabling loom and isolation devices and stands, as they all make a difference.
Enjoy your Quest as well........., until next time.
Peace.
Thanks el834eh for the reply. So that explains w/regards to resale one never lose's money when its time to sell the Harbeth LS3/5a .Your right w/ regards to recording w/ female vocals their quite good but play something complex and they're all over the place.
mondial
Hello Mondial,
Once again, you're welcome.
And I hope that the OP didn't might this post going lateral there for a moment, as it all relates more or less to his question as it stood, merely an attempt to expand upon his options as well as trying to illustrate which types of amps this brand as a whole was in fact designed around, and meant to be used with.
In many ways much like Sonus Faber designs, which are often seem paired with solid state amplification, yet it's not until they're heard driven with tubes or a hybrid based design driving them, that one finally gets it.
I'd say that more often then not the reason most still crave said LS 3|5As has to do with the way most were bought up under the influences of the British Rule as it related to many of the Asian culture, as seen with many from Korea whom seemingly prefer stuff made by Siemens in Germany, while the Japanese culture were more fascinated by gear made in American, and while some American tend to be biased about purchasing anything from either China or Japan, I'd still wager that imports do in fact to this very day, still offer better value for said wares, and a sense of musicality some USA based companies, of the ones which are still in fact owned by Americans?, have seems to have lost their way, and cater to the richest 35.000.000.00 whom can afford systems over $500.000.00, when in reality............, some of the most musical wares are to be had between the prices of $1.000 - $5.000 as it stands, in the end synergy has always been the goal in achieving a well matched system, which more often then not covers it's arse much much much better then thrown together expensive systems which can be built via blind investments.
As always........., just being subjective, but some of you will understand what I'm getting at?, higher prices can at times merely mean........., more expensive mistakes, as seemingly the ones whom can afford such luxuries are the ones whom are seen buying and selling these same items within weeks of having invested it them, but by having listened to them beforehand would've shown them how they were intended to be heard and purchased as a whole, instead of pieces here and there which obviously to anyone with a decent pair of ears, would've known didn't gel.
I'll stop there as not to offend, these lost soul........, but you know who you are.
In the meantime.........., those whom buy with their ears and heart, you've chosen wisely.
Very interesting....thank you!
Case in point........., having heard the entire Harbeth line, with the exception of their Model 40.?, I'd say as I've told others over the last few months......., this is the best I've heard from any if these speakers period, and I'd wager to say that this " Hybrid Integrated " has a great deal to do with it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzDCojCMoIM
Yes........., a very well throughout tandem of tubes and solid state under one hood, goes a very long ways in fleshing out the rather laid-back nature of siad speakers and then some.
Just food for thought, no!.
Your welcome.
And please know that, I'm speaking as someone whom has worked in audio retailing, and as a buyer had found that if nothing else in life........, I can hear quite well. And while not the sort whom believes everyone should chose my path in selecting their own equipment, I've always stressed the importance that a person " has to realize their own sound ", as I very seldom listen to those whom systems I've heard, and found wasn't suited to my own priorities of what or how music was meant to be rendered.
Nor do I take the words of people whom tend to sell and buy gear seemingly every other month, as to my way of thinking logically........., one has to first get out and hear any given component in the right circumstances as a means of understanding how it should be used, and in tandem with what source or cabling or speakers, and only then pursue it as heard if possible?, even if this means buying a cheaper cabling loom from the exact same company that you've heard this system voiced with, as it's more like to carry a similar house sound as compared to the more expensive loom.
So, those guys that aren't even given their wares time to settle in, aren't remotely aware of how it might then sound 4-6 months down the road, but by said time have gone through about 5 different amps, 7 different pairs of speakers and 9 different cabling looms.........., aren't the types to which I place much confidence in their words or abilities in assisting me in piecing together a system, to which I'd much prefer to use for years and years to come, as I'm someone more interested in adding to my music collection, as opposed to component count.
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