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I own a new McIntosh 200W per channel solid-state integrated and I've been shopping around for a pair of floorstanding speakers to use in my 12ft x 14ft room.I've narrowed down my list to the four models listed below. Which would you recommend & why?
- ProAc Response D30R
- Sonus Faber Venere S
- Ryan R630
- Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand SEI'm in my mid-50s and I listen to all types of music, except Country/Western. Mostly: Jazz, Classical, R&B and Rock. I listen at very comfortable levels but when I'm home alone, I do like to crank it up!
I'm looking for great overall detail (including vocals), wide soundstage, deep/well-controlled bass & must be non-fatiguing since I do like to listen for hours. I play vinyl LPs, CDs and also stream FLAC music files.
The speakers must also work well with about 1ft-2ft of space behind them (depending on depth of speakers).
The four speaker models listed above are all within my budget.
Edits: 08/01/16 08/01/16 08/01/16Follow Ups:
My vote goes to Ryan R630 . Funny , when I heard them I though they are voiced like Proac speakers and have the same easy listenability and a better value.Very good line of speakers deserving to be known better around the audio circles.
You should listen to Vandersteen speakers. They give great sound at all price points.
Magnepan 1.7 and a pair of subs. will do nicely.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Just a reminder.. the op did say he already narrowed it down to those four speakers.
OP - I would lean Pro-Ac of the four. But if you have it down to final four. You should be able to decide for yourself. Forums and reviews are best served for turning over some unknown rocks and maybe helping you add a couple speakers to the list of auditions. Never buy based on what other people tell you.
And while there are plenty of panel fans on this board.. in real life people I meet and the biggest Maggie dealer in Canada notes it's polarizing. Some love em some hate em. If you have not heard them or any panel try them for yourself. Since you like rock play it and crank it and compare. The sub suggestion you can ignore since you are evaluating the speaker's ability and you can add subs to the floorstander too. Probably with better integration.
So take Nosia, Nightwish, Slipknott, a crank the F out of it and see how it holds up on its own. Subs don't fix ribbon reproduction of upper midrange lower treble IMO.
What is it that you don't like about ribbons in this regard?
Understand...what I meant there is that the sub adds bass. But it adds bass to any speaker so my main point was, with regards to the Maggie suggestion was to be sure your satisfied JUST with the sound of the main speaker. The sub doesn't fix the rest of the non bass frequency spectrum.
I don't personally find ribbons particularly natural sounding. I find them bright leaning, thin sounding dynamically, with leading edge transients at the forefront but little weight and tone or timbre. And vastly different recordings sound homogeneous through them in my experience.
I have chosen ESL panels as top five of audio shows. And I have enjoyed conventional speakers with ribbon tweeters. It's further down the spectrum where for me where they don't do it for me.
I don't personally find ribbons particularly natural sounding. I find them bright leaning, thin sounding dynamically, with leading edge transients at the forefront but little weight and tone or timbre. And vastly different recordings sound homogeneous through them in my experience. - RGA
This can be said for many speakers , not just "ribbons" , agree a bit on the lack of percussive energy and the homogeneous playback , i find some panels will do this , but not all, what about others , those who find most box speakers to sound, well, Like a box ... :)
Edits: 08/12/16
"This can be said for many speakers , not just "ribbons" , agree a bit on the lack of percussive energy and the homogeneous playback "
For high frequencies you find this to be true? I find that ribbon tweeters maximize tonal differernces on a recording, it is one of their core strengths. One has to be careful with ribbons not to run them too low in frequency or too much distortion creeps in.
One of the best speakers I had as a reviewer to hear tonal differentiation was the Apogee Caliper signature. No box and the ribbons were quite low in distortion at the levels I listen at (see the old review from Martin Colloms to see the distortion levels from this speaker...it is respectably low...the Duetta Signature even better). The only electrostats I owned with real punch were Acoustats and they were able to reveal tonal differences just as well as the Apogees...that is why I switched...the Acoustats had more punch than my smaller Apogees.
Homogeneous is what I hear with AN speakers where the box is contributing way too much to the sound.
Both you and RGA might be right.Audio Note speakers might sound somewhat "homogeneous" in certain parts of the spectrum while the ribbon speakers might do it in other parts of the spectrum.
How we perceive the sound of speakers could depend on the parts of the spectrum we are naturally inclined to focus on.
Edits: 08/17/16
Please tell me how it is that ribbons sound "homogeneous" it is one of the least colored driver types you can have. It is uniformly driven while being completely immersed in a magnetic field. Response is almost as instantaneous as a plasma tweeter or electrostatic tweeter. Very low moving mass with no obvious resonances (the same is not true for Planar magentic drivers though).
So, virtually no coloration unless driven too low in frequency. Homogeneity comes from resonances that are the same no matter what the music because they are result of excitation and then resonance from inherent driver/box properties.
The purest sounding recordings I have heard were made with ribbon microphones, which truly revealed tonal shadings like one hears live.
I think that the feeling of "homogeneous sound" can come from several different things.It can be a completely subjective thing. Or it can be due to measurable interactions between speakers and rooms and ears.
I've never noticed an especially "homogeneous sound" coming from my Clements hybrid ribbon speakers. I think that what I'm hearing is better controlled and more even sound dispersion characteristics, so that disjointed and artificially UN-homogeneous sound is not being imparted to different recordings.
Edits: 08/18/16
Peter a who owned Scintillas noted that they had no "meat ont the bones" and basically that is what I hear with magnepan and quad and apogee. The bass is thin the sound is "flag" f-ing BORING to listen to. Dynamically same same across every recording. Bass dyanics is about as poor as it gets. It's why most of the Maggie guys I know have left them...for BOXED speaksrs. Or better panels....ESL. ESL like Soundlab or even King Sound make much more sense to me. Vastly VASTLY better midrange and treble. I'm not a huge bass hound...So I could be fine with a U1 but the only US dealer that carries AN and Sohndlab appears to have had selling Soundlab when they auditioned $30,000 AN E since they don't sell the Soundlabs anymore. But I guess that's coincidence.
So, you haven't heard Scintillas yourself I take it...you are going on pure hearsay. First of all, the problem with Scintillas is that there are very very few good sounding amps that can actually get anything useful out of them thanks to the 1 ohm (or lower) load. This usually means not great sounding bruiser SS. I can imagine Peter not liking that...I don't like it either. If you drive them properly (Allen Wright once designed a tube amp specifically to drive 1 ohm loads and that was GOOD) they can sound stupendous. Bass with a Scintilla is anything but weak and boring...you cannot compare this beast to a Maggie. If you heard dynamics the same across every recording then the electronics were to blame almost for certain.
Having had many electrostats I would say that they do better a low level reasolution than just about anything else except a good horn and even then I think they have a slight advantage. Apogees are not quite as good as that but far better than Maggies, which frankly are the cheapest made and lowest quality planars on the market. Given the high participation in the Maggie forum, I doubt that many give up their Maggies for box speakers but I would wager at least as many go the other direction.
Besides, I thought we were only talking about ribbon tweeters and not full ribbon speakers (Actually none of them are that. The bass panels are all planar magnetics and not ribbons). You can argue about planar bass all you want but at least for acoustic bass it is superior in just about every way to box bass. For rock and electro, it seems that people want that mid bass slam that planars don't really have. Only horn bass delivers the texture and nuance of planar bass with the slam of box bass...but then it has to be a damn huge horn.
Ribbon midrange (and Maggies don't have this BTW, they use push/pull planar magnetic drivers...only their tweeter is a real ribbon) like Apogee and Analysis Audio deliver, is superior to virtually every other techology in terms of tonal purity.
There is a good reason why nearly all studio instrument microphones are eitehr condenser (i.e. electrostatic) or ribbon technology and that is sound quality and sensitivity to nuance and tonality. A dynamic microphone is either just for absue by a singer on stage or for low quality recordings. With limits, the same is true for playback.
You should try to hear a good hybrid ribbon design, like the Apogee Centaur Major, if you like good tight box bass with a clear and open mid/high sound. I actually prefer this to the full planar Apogees for the most part. That said, I liked my Acoustats the best all-around. The little STAX ELS-F81s though had the purest mids and highs I have ever heard...amazing within their admittedly tight limits. My AudioStatics were also very revealing but a bit too phasey in the highs (venetian blind effect) and it drove me nuts eventually. The Acoustat Spectras didn't do that due to their advanced tech.
The best full-range planars on the market today are probably from Analysis Audio in Greece. Those also have bass that can rock due to innovation in the bass panel that has a real rubber suspension for a much larger excursion.
Have you ever heard a big Genesis? The BG drivers are pretty awesome and resolving as well but a bit edgier than a true ribbon.
What you say about Maggies I would be inclined to agree at least in part but not about Apogees...they are a whole other animal.
I have heard the Scintilla twice with recommended 1ohm capable amps, the Duetta Sig II and the Caliper.
I almost auditioned the Diva Grand but the ex Beijing Orchestra pianist sold it for the Audio Note product of the year winning Spx AlniCo that world renouwn RE Steve Hoffman a second pair.
I always continue to listen to panels.. and I will keep an open mind. I Did choose a King Sound as a show room winner. I also chose Sonist speakers as a tie...it uses a ribbon tweeter. Ditto for Acoustic Zen. My hyperbole sometimes creeps on too much.
That said when we discuss long out of business companies where there are very few left. It becomes rather pointless advising us to try and hear a particular model of a twenty year out of business maker. I can audition new speakers from New makers who should be offering better stuff today. Dynamics and mid bass is massively important for rock or percussion. The big horns when integrated well and given enough space are my favorites. Commercial products are far more compromised. But those great speakers have huge prices. The AN E LX is $5,000US. There is nothing that touches it I ME. There is a reason I will sell y AN J Spe for more than I paid for it in 2004. So as much as people get on me the fact is the market speaks on this and the market says yes they are willing to pay more now for it than it sold for new. I can buy the $2500 DeCapo for $600. Same age. The Markey has spoken.
I auditioned the big Sonist hybrid ribbon floorstander at the Sonist factory in Idaho and was very impressed. Which model(s) in the Sonist lineup are you referring to?
It's been awhile but I covered their room in the link below. Unfortunately when dagogo's website changed we lost a bunch of pictures.
From what I listed the speakers were the speakers were the Recital 3 and Concerto 3. The owner of Sonist passed away a few years ago. I am glad to see they are still in operation. More SET friendly speakers with good sound is always needed.
Might I recommend the KEF REF 1 or one of the new KEFs that has their re-designed woofers.
In a small space,one should be concerned with the crossover design.If you can sit 9' or farther away-no problem.But without the distance for the drivers to integrate,you will hear some disparity between drive units.
Tom:cat
Nothing is perfect. Boxed designs have their own issues. But I will take a speaker that gives me 9/10 in bass and dynamics and scale and tone and timbre with 5% coloration than a panel that gives me 3/10 for bass , dynamics, scale pressure, and gives me 1% coloration. In other words I don't want to throw 9 fhingsvdone a a lot LOT better to only gain 1-2 advantages. Like throwing out the entire rock pop hip hop rap trance genres of music for a relatively small gain in transparency on staging. I notice more weaknesses than gravitate to a few strengths. Given they are far cheaper to manufacture...the majority of design engineers and consumers appear to be with me on this one.
Funny how ribbon tweeters seem to be more popular than ever. The negative attributes that you describe either go unnoticed or are considered to be positive attributes, by others.
If a diamond has many facets, could it be that it's hard to focus on all of them at once? (;')
McDonald's is popular is my counter to that though.
Personally I find much of the high end desperately trying to be competitive and with so many having the attention spans of gnats you have to impress people in seconds on the showroom floor. Boom and sizzle stands out.
The above is purely devil's argument. It's up to you at the end of the day how you perceive the ribbon or the ribbon planar. But virtually 100% of every speaker that comes out gets raves by someone. I have not met too many audiophiles who love every speaker or design.
If I really loved a speaker with a ribbon I would have bought one. I have heard most of the Maggie's since around 1995 and three Apogee models. I have auditioned a lot of ribbon dynamic hybrids and reviewed one of the better integrated ones. I still keep my ears open.
It is clear you, for whatever reason, don't like high resolution tweeters but what is clear is that a lot of people find that resolution in the highs to really open up the soundstage and allow for greater inner resolution when implemented correctly. Like all things in life, implementation is the key to getting a good blend with a ribbon or planar tweeter and while this may or may not be more difficult to achieve than a soft dome tweeter, it is certainly worth the effort.
Frankly, other than Wilson's new soft dome, I find most soft domes sound like someone has stuffed a bit of cotton in the ears. I went back to softdomes when I got three pairs of Ref 3as a few years ago and going to the Be tweeter upgrade was a huge improvement. Softdomes just lose information as they are a quite lossy transducer unless horn loaded (like my little Rigolettos, which hornload an Audax softdome).
What is your impression of ion tweeters and horn loaded compression drivers? Too much resolution for you there as well?
My favorite treble is plasma in the acapella range. But prohibitively expensive and generally too large for normal living spaces. It is not the "treble" I have issue with it is the lack of integration to a midwoofer that sounds entirely different than a BE tweeter covering the same notes. It sticks out worse than autotune. Instruments shift sound and it is very easy to hear with ribbons and metal drivers. Very obvious with the BE in the ref 3a line. It is tru the BE itself is more open and itself more "airy" but because the integration is much worse...one simply listens to the hiding elements of the sound. And is therefore immediately taken out of the musical event.
You can't tell me that the soft dome in the AN speakers sounds the same as a hemp cone...there is always a character mismatch between drivers of different materials.
I think the Be integrated really well in my Ref 3as and that is because of the lack of crossover in the midwoofer and 1st order on the tweeter, which guarantees a wide overlap and smoot transistion rather than a sharp break between the two drivers. A sharp break is much more noticeable (like B&W N801s had in days of yore).
Most speakers have a sharper cutoff and it is more obvious to my ears than the Ref 3a.
Like I have said many times there is no way you are going to WIN the argument on this - I VASTLY prefer the sound of the AN E or J or K to ANY of the Reference 3a speakers I have heard. And you blabbing on endlessly isn't going to change that!
And as I have said if you do wish to win the argument (sorta) then you bring your favorite Ref 3a two way versus my AN 2 way and we have classical and jazz trained musicians (around 30) and they listen level matched and blind in two identical rooms with level matched at the listening chair with the gear blacked out. Same volume same music played and we just see how many choose the 2 way Ref 3a with BE tweeters and the AN E with their silk domes.
Other than such a test - it's basically opinion. And even if the result was 29-1 either way it would still only tell people what they will likely prefer. Citizen Kane is considered the greatest American Film in History according to the reviewers - but I know plenty of people who don't like it let alone love it.
And probably you have chased more people away from AN than attracted them to it. Because, beneath your superficially diplomatic language, you think they are superior to everything else...an arugment you are never going to win with a lot of experienced listeners. Many still remember your unabashed fanboy posts prior to becoming a "reviewer".
I would be happy to oblige you on the test if that were in any way pratical. I would do it also for some good planars against the AN of your choice.
My ex was a top level pro violinist and she strongly preferred the sound of Apogees and Acoustats to pretty much everything else (I took her to friend's and shows that had mostly the conventional stuff). Horns were not big back then so she never heard good horns but I have no doubt that would have rated more highly. The other thing about my ex, was that unlike a lot of other women she was HIGHLY analytical and cared about sound quality. Another friend brought his trained ballerina girlfriend over and when she heard Acoustats with good tubes she exclaimed to her boyfriend, "Why can't your system sound this realistic??" That was embarrassing for him because he kept claiming his system sounded great even when I told him that it wasn't so realistic sounding.
So, I am happy if you bring in some top classical musicians...but they have to care...most do not. I am never sure of the outcome but I can state that I have alredy done something similar and I know what is likely to win in that setting...and it won't be AN or Ref 3a.
Are you saying that Steve Hoffman doesn't care about sound? I don't think you want to play in the "I know so and so who cares about music and owns XYZ speakers" game because the who's who list is very long.The ole - "my girlfriend even likes it and she plays violin so knows more than you or anyone else on the planet" argument is rather silly.
Since I can counter with Hoffman
"He has remastered over 500 Audiophile quality Compact Discs and LP's working with such artists as: The Eagles, The Doors, Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan, The Beach Boys, Nat 'King' Cole, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Ray Charles, Roy Orbison, Cream, The Cars, Blondie, Jim Croce, Linda Ronstadt, Jethro Tull, The Doobie Brothers, Jackson Browne, Steve Miller Band, Elton John, Van Halen, Bonnie Raitt, Al Green, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, Stan Getz, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Art Pepper, Rod Stewart, Judy Garland, Ella Fitzgerald, Peggy Lee, Wes Montgomery and many, many, others."
He has been to many shows and gee he didn't buy any panels, Odeon or Ref 3a - but Audio Note - and he did it twice.
His current system comprises:
Audio Note UK M9, Audio Note UK M6 RIAA phono, AN UK M2 RIAA phono
Amplification:
Audio Note UK Ginrei monoblocks, Audio Note UK Jinro integrated, Audio Note UK OTO Phono SE Signature integratedSpeaker System:
Audio Note UK AN-E/SPx HE Alnico, Audio Note AN-E/SPeSpeaker Cables:
Audio Note UK: Sogon LX 96 bi-wireInterconnects:
Audio Note UK: Sogon 50I don't think you quite fathom the staggering number of artists that have bought AN over the years or the very high number of reviewers that have bought in. Sure back in the old days it was JUST RGA raving but that simply isn't the case today. Over time from my days in the past there are a lot more people who are now agreeing with me. They saw the light or heard the "sound" and they bought in.
And my AN ravings led me to get a review position and Soundhounds in Victoria was thrilled too because they had so so so many people walk into their store to try AN - and that also led people to listen to other stuff they sold. So whether it be the genuine people who wanted to hear what I was raving about and went in with an open mind or it was the people who are dimwitted slack-jawed tone deaf trolls who hate me and went in just to rip me later by saying they went to Soundhounds and hated the speakers it meant more business for them. (Indeed, I actually never got one message stating that they didn't like AN - but a LOT thanking me for introducing them to the best sound they ever heard).
And if people were turned away from being objective listeners because of some raves - that's their tough luck - they are likely listening to a much crappier system today and probably for a LOT more money just to spite me. Then so be it. Good luck to them - they're probably 8 systems down the road by now.
And I repeat again from Wes Philips (who auditioned buckets of panels and horns for Stereophile)
Forget best sound of show, for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the Audio Note system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard.
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/ces2009/ongaku_means_ecstasy/index.html#VxyS5uk3kVZ9OqMG.99It was not just one crank on an audio forum back in 2003 raving - I just beat a LOT Of them to punch. Or Constanine Soo who OWNED Duetta II speakers and said the AN E/D (half the price of the Duetta) was better.
They are also now being used in the recording studio - the recordings coming out are said to be some of the very best sounding pressings available today.
Meanwhile Odeon gets a terrible review in Stereophile - The reviewer sure didn't rush out and buy one now did he? Couldn't get it out the door fast enough. And this was a Whopping $12,500US loudspeaker back in the day - probably equal to a $20k speaker now. Wow. Sorry there is no excuse for coming out with such a horrible speaker for THAT price level.
I just can't believe someone in your position gets behind that brand when
Stereophile who everyone dumps on for never being negative says this
"I found the level of craftsmanship disappointing for a $9500-$12,500 pair of loudspeakers"
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/951/index.html#6WOLGFRQhp8Z0Akj.99
""Though the promised "you are there" experience never materialized, "the speakers are there" experience did.""
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/odeon-la-traviata-loudspeaker-page-2#1pAYsqLydK13t3Z0.99""For my final two weeks of listening I found the Odeons pleasant and sometimes exciting, but never convincing""
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/odeon-la-traviata-loudspeaker-page-2-0#1gqTvLWERFBfFesM.99
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/951/#zpoJEj6i1mTjd7A1.97So this is the speaker brand that you tell everyone is better than AN (and everything else for that matter) - while we have Stereophile reviewers like Art Dudley and Peter Breuninger and Peter Van Welliswaard who bought AN's and Wes Philips who claimed they were the best he ever heard. Oh and Herb Reichert who was their distributor back in the day.
I dunno man - but it seems like you prefer a lot of stuff that went belly up and no one has come along to resurrect (in a meaningful way) or newer stuff that when they get reviewed got rather ripped apart. Have they even managed US presence? The Stereophile link is dead and they don't seem to even have an English Website. Why do I get the sense you love them because your dealer friend got them for you for 1/5 the retail price or something?
I have a female friend who is also a concert violinist among other instruments and I played the Oboe - not exactly sure where that gets you or I. With regards to caring - that is an interesting point I must say. But perhaps the people in the test can be made to care if the system reproducing music is of high quality.
And you do realize that AN is in the studio now (Gearbox Records) and that their front man for ANMusic is the renowned cellist Vincent Belanger. Indeed, they have recorded the cello in mono Left and right with Vincent playing live in the center track. A more full range instrument than the Violin I might add.
Morricab - you're a smart guy and you are far better making technical engineering arguments that offer great insight to why SETs are better - but IMO you, like me, get too emotional over trying to "win" the argument. And you basically make arguments that are easily knocked down as a result. You bring in the girlfriend who is a musician - but you must know that that argument is extremely weak because you know that I can equal that argument.
And not only do I equal the argument I actually provide you the name of the musician - not the ole "my girlfriend" - you have the unknown mysterious girlfriend and I give you Vincent Belanger but heck Steve Rochlin is a drummer and he has AN J speakers. And there are many others out there who like their privacy. You can also make the case for many other speaker brands like B&W or ATC etc where they have buckets of musicians owning their products. It's not a winning case. Not for you or me - I am just pointing this out to you.
You bring in a reviewer who says "Odeon is great" I bring out 10 for Audio Note. They've been selling the Snell E/Audio Innovations Type E and Audio Note AN E for 40 years now. The heaps of reviews are staggering.
You bring out - my engineer friend loves Odeon or Reference 3a or Apogee or whatever - I bring Steve Hoffman a guy who is about as big as gets in the field. So unless the friend is putting out music anyone has ever heard of - then he/she isn't exactly on the same par.
These just are not winning hands(arguments(. You're sitting there with 7-3 off suit and I am bringing pocket aces. And if you know Texas Hold Em you know this isn't the cards(arguments) that you're going to win with.
It boils down to this - You don't like what you've heard from them - fine. I am not out to convince you. It's like panels for me in general. They don't do it for me. I can understand them - I can read all the wonderful well worded arguments for why you or an E-Stat love them. I can even often hear why people love them. But they don't do it for me. Is there really anything more to say about it? I mean I hate Brussels-sprouts. I know they're really healthy and all. I really do. I wish I could love them - but if one goes in my mouth I literally want to vomit. I even like other cabbage - love coleslaw and Kim-chi. But I can't like what I don't like.
And I like pasta - now and again. I will recommend a good pasta.
I love Salmon - to an unreasonable degree where I think I could quite literally eat salmon every single day for the rest of my life. And A&W Root Beer - every other Root Beer that I have tried and I have tried a helluva lot of them to me are varying degrees of "Ho hum it's not as good as A&W". Some things I like better. A lot better. It can't all be summed down into written words. A&W is my KING of the Root Beer hill until such time as I find something I like the taste of better. And so far only Hires Root beer has come remotely close. I have tried far more expensive root beers - meh. A&W is the boss. And guess what - in Hong Kong root beer is hated - you know why? Because when the doctor gives the people here cough syrup it tastes like root beer. Whereas in Canada cough syrup tastes like cherry.
The point of the above root beer story is that people's backgrounds and IMO their very language structures may have an impact on sound reproduction. AN's best selling dealer is Hong Kong and Singapore. Heavily heavily based on tone. 9 tone language structure. German and Austria are far more guttural and sibilant. It may very well be that what a German likes when he listens to music is very very different than the sound a Cantonese speaker will tend to like versus US English or Australian English or British or Irish or Canadian English or Japanese etc will respond to. It applies to art, design, ways of living, to music created and thus of course it should apply to sound reproduction as well.
Edits: 08/28/16 08/28/16
There's a difference between a speaker that merely "sizzles" and one that is good at reproducing a sense of transparency and "air", but I think I get your point.
You recommended the Legacy Audio Studio HD ribbon monitor not too long ago. Do you now feel as if that one falls into the "boom and sizzle" category too?
I compare speakers within their price ranges and accept limitations within the price range. The Legacy Studio HD for example is only marginally more expensive than my KEF LS 50 which uses a metal tweeter. I'd recommend the Legacy over my KEF overall.
Ears, Yes, Mind , no ................ :)
I don't think that's fair. If I like Lamborghini and you tell me to try a Vette and I do try a Vette but still prefer the Lamborghini that doesn't mean because I didn't like your suggestion better that I have a closed mind. I at least go to the trouble of the auditions. And when I find something I like more that fits the space or budget I'll buy it. My budget now is $25,000 US for speakers. I'll be open to speakers using ribbons. But none as of yet fit my final 10. I have heard the 20.7 and 3.7.
I don't think that's fair. If I like Lamborghini and you tell me to try a Vette and I do try a Vette but still prefer the Lamborghini that doesn't mean because I didn't like your suggestion better that I have a closed mind. I at least go to the trouble of the auditions.
I'm no expert but I believe the tricky part about ribbon tweeters is integration with the other drivers for a coherent sound (drivers all blend in) which would be the job of the crossover.I can't speak for all speaker manufacturers but ProAc (Stewart Tyler) has done an incredible job in properly and seamlessly integrating the ribbon tweeter in their speakers.
Also, their design of the bottom vented port with "base" is really smart since it provides consistent bass response no matter what the surface is (i.e. hardwood floor, tiling, carpeting, etc.).
Edits: 08/10/16
So far, I've auditioned the ProAc Response D30R speakers twice & I'm really impressed with their sound, transparency, detail, bass response & fit-n-finish. ProAc has done an amazing job in integrating the ribbon tweeter with the mid/bass driver. Extremely coherent sound, very impressive indeed!I didn't get to audition the bigger ProAc Response D48R yet but my local ProAc dealer seems to think that they would be too big for my 12ft x 14ft room. He thinks that they would overpower my room & that I would be better off with the D30R.
Edits: 08/07/16
An experienced truthful dealer is gold. More gold than forums or reviewers...But they're not easy to find.
Room and gear synergy is extremely important. It's why I can choose something like YG Acoustics or MBL as best sound of show at one show and those two were near the bottom at another show. Further, personal bias has an affect from the product's looks price or even design and bias against a dealer, maker, or forum poster.
ProAc has been around. They're solid. The main thing with this is are they all day listenable and do they play your music such that you are not constantly thinking about fixing this or that aspect. If so and you like the price then you're set.
Exciting stuff , no AN recommendation..
Maggies don't spray sound to the sides but they do spray sound to the rear, so they might sound best with more space behind them than a small room can afford.The MMG, Super MMG, or maybe even the .7 might do OK in a small room but the 1.7i and up may not like being squeezed. And the smaller models are easy to move back and forth as needed.
Edits: 08/02/16
...so they might sound best with more space behind them than a small room can afford.
I think it's safe to say that there are zero speakers that "sound best" in a small cube room.
Maggies, however, will work fine using more toe-in. The dipolar radiation will most likely minimize the room modes.
ESL57's on original stands about the best in small rooms ...
Good point.I think that an extreme amount of toe-in would be required in order to retain those dipole benefits. But I've heard of people who use almost 90 degrees of toe-in, so it might work.
Edits: 08/03/16
I use 45 degree toe in my larger 15 ft wide room tweeters in. In my small sitting room 10.5 feet wide I have tweeters out and 20 degree toe in. Both provide a fairly good power response and similar flatish response after EQ.
No subs upstairs though.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Consider a pair of monitors and a sub. The Tabulette Anniversaries are nice.
Another alternative
A pair of Ohm Walsh Talls and a sub.
I'm really not interested in a sub.
I'm looking for a pair of floorstanding speakers that will work well in my 12ft x 14ft room without the need for a sub.
Was the room that you auditioned the ProAcs in similar in size to your listening room?
If your room is substantially bigger, the bass output may not meet your expectations.
Yes, the room I auditioned the ProAc speakers was the same size as my room.
Alright. ProAcs do a lot of thing right and are easy to live with. They do not like bright amps, so your Mac gear will likely work well.
Enjoy
Revel Performa F206 (front ported)
Elac FS 407 (down ported)
You auditioned them and you already that know you like them, which is more than you can say for all the rest.
.
I've owned all these speakers at one time and the one I currently have is the ProAc D30R. It does everything you're looking for. It's the most natural sounding of them all, it plays well in small to medium sized rooms and has a downward firing port so placement is relatively easy.
Mascott
Proac.
"To Learn Who Rules Over You, Simply Find Out Who You Are Not Allowed to Criticize."
-Voltaire
Take a look at the Spendor A line. Years ago I owned the S8E floorstander and it was outstanding!
I own the McIntosh MAC6700 integrated amp and absolutely love it!My comment about the dealer was that they normally carry all 4 models that I'm interested in but did not have in-store the exact models I wanted to audition, except for the ProAc speakers.
The system is in a typical North American living room with a small coffee table between me and my system/speakers. There's a window behind the listening position but I've covered it with a really thick curtain.
I love deep, well-controlled bass and although I love the Sonus Faber sound & speaker finishes, they don't seem to go very deep. However, I haven't auditioned the Venere S yet.
The ProAc Response D30R did go very deep and the bass was indeed very well controlled, in a listening room roughly the same size as my living room.
Edits: 08/01/16
If you love the deep bass sound then again I would recommend a more modest sized cabinet speaker and sub. You really want your main speaker to get down to around 45hz CLEANLY!!!! then have the sub do the heavy lifting.
The ProAc's are, for a stupider way to say it, the smallest of the bunch and would most likely be the better fit.
Also I really like the ribbon tweeter / McIntosh match. they go well together. And since off axis does not seem to be your problem then they are "GREAT".
How does the ProAc sound - natural wise. Again bring in your own amp for the final choice. Also be critical of the upper midrange. that is were most of your really good music detail comes from and not that tweeter.
Is this a bedroom or is there anything in the way of the speakers?Do you have a direct "line of sight" from your listening area to speakers or is there going to be an off axis need?
This is important because some of the speakers you mentioned have a poor off axis listening spec. (ribbons)
Also some of those speakers are oversized for your room. To big a speaker and you'll end up with a mismatched system/area.
For that sized room I would find a really good monitor and sub combo. If it's the new MA6700 Mac it's a nice piece. Do it right and match it to the room as well.
Edits: 08/01/16
The MMGs should be about the right size for your room. Once you hear
them, there's usually no going back to box speakers.
Should work well given his tastes, gear and priorities.
Maggies are great but do not do micro-dynamics.
Don't play well quietly, don't play well loudly.
But at medium volume on pop music they're great.
"To Learn Who Rules Over You, Simply Find Out Who You Are Not Allowed to Criticize."
-Voltaire
I'm not sure you have heard them set up correctly and with the right amp and equipment.
I had MG3.6's with a PASS X250 and they had detail, midrange and bass slam, maybe not pressure impact. I can agree they sing when pumped with power.
I've owned maggies at least five times in the past 35 years.
They've always been known for not being a 'low volume' speaker. They need some power to open up.
And I stand by my comments on microdynamics. Maybe the bigger models don't have that problem but things like the MG12, etc.... yeah. You notice it a lot of you're switching from say, a good British monitor style speaker.
"To Learn Who Rules Over You, Simply Find Out Who You Are Not Allowed to Criticize."
-Voltaire
And I stand by my comments on microdynamics.
One of the reasons I favor electrostats is because of their low level resolution. I get that. That is why I ruled out 20.1s at the time.
On the other hand, I was very impressed when I heard 3.7s at Sea Cliff a number of years ago. I think the current crop does much better than previous models. Note too, the listening habits of the OP.
Well, I dont know about that. I had MGIII's awhile back. Although the Maggies did a lot of things well, I was never pulled in to the music like my horn/BR system I had previously. I sold them, and use sealed box speakers now. I think he may still want to try them, though, but he will need a sub if he wants deep bass.
I have a Mac 6900 200 Watt Int Amp.
My room is about the same size, too small for large floor standers.
I use Kef R 300's on stands.
I tried my Kef 104.2's in a bedroom size room years ago, not nearly as good as they sound in a larger Living Room.
You said new what model is it?
How's the sound signature on it?
They tend to run with a soft top end and mild dynamics, is that still true?
If so look for a speaker with a good sensitivity to offset the low dynamics and with a good top end like a ribbon or metal dome tweeter.
I would recommend you bring your amp with you to audition speakers. And do bring that hernia belt!
No really bring your amp.
Also there is a McIntosh forum over at AudioKarma. Poke around there as well. Those guys LOVE their Macs.
Which models did you demo?
I've only demo'ed the ProAc Response D30R speakers and was very impressed. With it's downward firing bass port, it worked very well close to the wall behind them. The Sonus Faber Venere S also have downward firing bass ports.As for the other 2 models (Ryan and Vienna Acoustics), although they have rear firing bass ports, my local dealer was not concerned with my setup but they were not available for a demo.
Edits: 08/01/16 08/01/16 08/01/16
what do you mean your local dealer was not concerned with your setup.
Just remember most if not all of these guys don't give a rats ass about your setup. They just want to sell you something quick. If you're not happy move on fast!!!
I would add Revel used F52's to that list they are around $2500 and would work well with the Mc. Also they have a bass and high frequency adjustment for room correction. Play all kinds of music and have fast deep bass and a wide invisible soundstage. Best deal around if you can find them used
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