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206.167.24.5
Ive heard kef ls 50 and will audition monitor 30.1.
Ive just sold my amphion one18. they are truly the most accurate, detailed and fast speakers Ive heard. I may want a more smooth, slow and musical presentation.
My interest is likely getting a high end REL g2 combined with the 30.1 or kef ls 50.
Id love to hear the comparison between the ls 50 and 30.1
thanks
Follow Ups:
I've owned both, each for over a year. In a larger room, the Harbeths can be magical. In my (smaller) 12 x 12 room, the LS50s work better and are easier to live with, at less than 1/4 of the price. I've still got the KEFs.
best,
n
very interesting.
could you say a bit more about kef ls 50 qualities vs the harbeth ones?
what made you sell your harbeth?
it seem to me that the mid and highs are magical, but the bass can become tiresome? was that your experience as well?
Ive tried the C7 and the shl5, and decided to go back to amphion one 18 because, in particular, the bass wasnt to my liking at all.
couldnt demo the 30.1 unfortunetely.
would love more information and impression from you if you can
thanks!
What is accuracy?
I have seen the word "accurate" used over and over in this long thread. Speaker A is more accurate than speaker B.
My question remains...what is accuracy? Accuracy to what?
How can a speaker that has a sound of its own be considered accurate?
Conversely, how can a speaker that's "musical" be somehow fundamentally flawed and less "accurate?"
How can a speaker that sounds like a collection of disparate drive units in which you can hear the sonic contribution of the drivers and even the box, be considered "accurate?"
My question remains, accurate to what?
I define speaker accuracy very differently than most it would seem.
If a speaker sounds like music, if it sounds like the voices and instruments caught on the recording, then its accurate to me. If I can hear the drivers and the box separate from the music, then the speaker is not accurate to me.
I just want to hear music. I don't want to hear the speakers contribution at all. I want the speaker to disappear behind the music...to vanish from the room essentially, leaving only the illusion of live performance. That's what a good speaker does in my book...a good disappearing act.
I think when someone says "this speaker sounds accurate" I think the following the speaker might be neutral to slightly cool in presentation (the typical mid bass hump is missing or is a small suck-out).
When they say it is smooth and warm - the hump is there and treble tends to start rolling off 8-10kHz.
When they say lean and fast - there is a slow rolloff in the bass the lower you go.
============================
As audiophiles, we take what's obsolete, make it beautiful, and keep it forever.
Hey! I have a blog now: http://mancave-stereo.blogspot.com or "like" us at https://www.facebook.com/mancave.stereo
I think that most audiophiles want what has been called "musical accuracy", or sound reproduction that resembles live music. Musical reproduction almost always sounds at least slightly different than live music does, however. Music reproduction is necessarily a distinct art form, related to but different from the art of live music performance, and as such it contains some readily recognizable sonic features and/or signatures.I wouldn't expect any sound system to sound exactly like live music does. Some would liken home stereo to a scale model train set complete with realistic landscaping or to a realistic oil painting. Hifi is a "framed" and mostly miniaturized remake of something alive that exists in full scale elsewhere.
Edits: 07/05/15 07/05/15 07/05/15 07/05/15 07/05/15 07/05/15 07/13/15
I wish I could remember who I'm quoting. Anyhow, quite some time back a wise man said something like this: Since it is impossible to recreate a live performance in the home, the best you can do is to create the aesthetic equivalent.
That sidesteps "accuracy" and gets to enjoyment of the music. Reproduction in a way that conjurs up vivid memories of the live performance.
Jerry
On the one hand I've got to be respectful of the recording itself. Mindful of the sound that is contained in a recording and all of that which the recording engineers intended for me to hear. At the same time, I can't help wishing for sound that seems realistic to me. Sometimes my recordings deliver most of the the goods I'm looking for, but oftentimes they don't.Luckily (?) though, recordings (especially the bad ones) are subject to a certain amount of *interpretation* on the part of the listener. Couple this fact with the fact that I can't help preferring what seems to be a coherent sonic interpretation over what seems to be a disjointed, unseemly one...
Well, it is no wonder that my system quickly becomes a personalized tool suitable for the interpretation of recordings.
Edits: 07/15/15 07/15/15 07/15/15
Each of us have to develop our own idea of the "Aesthetic Equivalent". I have found that I can get there with a fairly modest system; although it took a lot of work to find the right pieces and get them set up to best advantage.
As to recordings, I have a few CD's that I consider to be well recorded that I use as my "test" samples when making changes to my system. I also have decent instrumentation, including a 1/6 octave RTA and pink noise generator; but my aging ears are the final judge.
Jerry
I say, and do, similarly.
I'm disappointed with the collective responses in this thread, specifically the "Harbeth's are better" all around. All the responses are missing one thing. Powered with a high power quality amplifier, in a large room, the KEFs will sound much more dynamic and throw a larger soundfield than the Harbeth's, which might melt or at a minimum break down (distort) with louder music in a larger venue. For a disclaimer, I have only owned the SHL5 and the LS50, have heard neither together, and have not heard the Monitor 30 in any setting or model. My opinion is based on other experiences - see my review on Audiogon comparing the SHL5 and Tyler Linbrook monitors. Lastly, I am a huge fan of Harbeth and agree they are much more musical than the KEFs, and given the chance I would live with the Harbeth's.
Correction, although I did post a review of Tyler speakers on Audiogon that referred to the comparison with Harbeth, the post I was thinking of was a response to the thread 'Harbeth vs. Tyler' on Audiogon.
Your post is really out there.
You contradict your self and basically nullify your own response,
"I'm disappointed with the collective responses in this thread, specifically the "Harbeth's are better" all around."
then you conclude with:
"Lastly, I am a huge fan of Harbeth and agree they are much more musical than the KEFs, and given the chance I would live with the Harbeth's."
So you are upset that posters agree with you?
Couple of more points..
If the Kefs require a high powered amp kinda kills the value proposition...dun it?
Lastly, I will take musical satisfaction over audiophile drivel like "soundstage" and "dynamics".
Sprezza,
I understand your point, on the surface it may seem like I am contradicting myself. I'll elaborate. If a person only listens to heavy music with lots of bass information (example, Reference Recordings Pomp and Pipes or Felix Hell Organ recording) the Harbeth is NOT the better all around speaker. It distorts in a bad way. Because the LS-50 is a mini-monitor it will not try to reproduce all of the low freq info. If I only listened to acoustic instrumental music, chamber music, etc., the Harbeth is by far the better choice. So it depends on what the individual wants from a speaker, before arbitrarily saying something that costs more -must- be better. And since you mention car analogies, with yours being 'Ferrari vs Ford', I would disagree. I think the Harbeth is like a fine vintage (90's?) Rolls Royce and the KEF like a Lotus.
Thank you for clarifying.
But I honestly have no idea where you come up with your belief that the Harbeth will "distort". Never heard one distort in my life.
Also, I have always thought his audiophile notion that there are speakers for different types of music quaint, and silly. Alan Shaw would have a good laugh, and be quite annoyed at this myth that Harbeth's are acoustic music loving teetotalers.
I can ASSURE you many classic rock albums were mixed on Harbeths.
My biggest issue with the LS50 the music sounds just like the driver material..metallic...and the Harbeths sound far more natural.
"I think the Harbeth is like a fine vintage (90's?) Rolls Royce and the KEF like a Lotus."
I can live with that.
Your post is really out there.
You contradict your self and basically nullify your own response,
"I'm disappointed with the collective responses in this thread, specifically the "Harbeth's are better" all around."
then you conclude with:
"Lastly, I am a huge fan of Harbeth and agree they are much more musical than the KEFs, and given the chance I would live with the Harbeth's."
So you are upset that posters agree with you?
Couple of more points..
If the Kefs require a high powered amp kinda kills the value proposition...dun it?
Lastly, I will take musical satisfaction over audiophile drivel like "soundstage" and "dynamics".
OR the Episode Be and you probably won't even need the sub.
The Episodes footprint is no larger than a speaker stand so I don't see why you necessarily need a stand mount speaker.
Even though they may sound appealing, some dealers gave up on Harbeths because too many customers complained of bad WAF and some even rejected them due to Alan Shaw's (Harbeth's designer) condescending and dismissive attitude and comments. Go figure.
Edits: 06/30/15
Part of the perceived problems with the LS-50s are their reduced scaling of instruments and lack of bass extension below 70Hz.Doubling of the 50s cures much of the scaling issues.As far as bass,that depends on your skills and complexities of your solution
As the system has improved,so has the qualities revealed by the speakers.You must listen within 8-9 feet.After all,they are a monitor.
If shopped properly,you should find 2 prs for $2400.I recommend finding a local cabinet shop and construct a pair of woofer cabinets .I started out with plate-amps and have moved up to a Pass XVR-1/X-250 combo.
If you are willing to experiment,IMHO the KEFs bring quite a bit to the table.
Former heavy-weights that have lived in my room.Von Schw:VR-6/Yankee FPR-72 mkiii,InSound modded Gallos and before that ML CLS.
If you automatically dismiss the 50s,you have missed the boat on a very rewarding speaker.They are not the last word in warmth,but they are extremely accurate.I believe the "modern" label to be accurate.So pairing them with lean or forward components is probably not a step in the right direction.YMMV
Tom:cat
These two speakers are so different in design, price, and character that it seems odd that you would be down to these two choices. I've only had the chance to hear a couple songs on each, but it was obvious to me that the sound of the 30.1 is "vintage" (even relative to other Harbeth) while the sound of the LS50 is "modern". I expect the LS50 will be closer in character to the Amphions. But I don't know whether that's a good thing or bad thing depending on how big of a change you're looking for.
Also, while the LS50 is a giant killer at $1500, if you can afford $6k for speakers then surely you can find a great many superior alternatives to consider in the "modern" camp. For a new example, I would take Dynaudio Focus 160s for $2900 or maybe Penaudio Cenya for $4k. But if it were me, I would look used. Right now, there is a NIB pair of KEF Reference 1 on Agon for $6k, a pair of Dynaudio C1 II for $4800, and Focus Audio FP50SE for $2150. All of these would wipe the floor with the LS50.
But if you end up liking the warmer, softer, more laid back sound of the Harbeth 30.1, then I'm not the best person to suggest alternatives. The Spendor Classic series obviously. Some of the warmer Sonus Faber models. Maybe Audio Note.
For something that falls in between the two camps, I suggest ProAc. I also think John Marks' Wilson Benesch suggestion is good, and a pair of mint WB Vertex is on Agon now (same model as I own).
That I haven't had the chance to hear, alas.
But I suspect I would like it as much as the 30.1's (I used to own 30's).
This is more what the 30.1's should be priced at.
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
I agree, I had the Spendor SP1/2e and my friend had the Harbeth HL5. I liked the Spendor much more.
The 30.1 is about $5600 these days, so the difference is only $1400. The 2/3 is the same dimensions as the Compact 7. I've heard both of these speakers (on the some day in the same store but in different rooms). The Spendor is more full and romantic sounding but not as fast and clear. The Spendor requires less power. Its sound is more immediately relaxed and appealing, but once my ears adjusted to the Harbeth's, I was hooked on the clarity and harmonic rightness. Marketing aside, there are good reasons the Harbeth are popular and can sell at a somewhat inflated price. Compared to many audiophile products (e.g. $10k interconnects), these speakers are a pretty rational investment. There are better bargains out there, for sure (I would choose JM Reynaud Bliss Silver at $2700 over either the Harbeth or Spendor), but I don't see why people get so up in arms about Harbeth prices.
From my understanding the 30.1 is more of a studio monitor when compared to the Compact C7 or spendor 2/3. Designed for a flat response and uncolored.
I'm not 100% but pretty sure
Any finish, US MSRP $5195.
That's $3800 for the pair of speakers and $1395 for the dedicated stands.
John
There is a pair of mint Wilson Benesch Vertex on Audiogon for $4250. I would take those in a heartbeat over the Square, unless you have to have something new.
nt
I'd be very interested to hear more details about your experience with the Amphion. For those who don't look in on Gearslutz and other pro fora, a huge number of studio professionals are agog over them. In their world, the LS-50 and 30.1 are seldom if ever mentioned.
The amphion one18 are, by far, the most accurate speaker I have ever heard. the amount of information is truly incredible, with holographic imaging, a focused and solid phantom image. I have talked about it in length and you can find my findings all over the net and comparison between ref3a decapo, AN J Lx, salk continuum, ect.I'm using right now Wilson Audio cub II, again, the amphion are another league compared to all those speakers, wilson included.
I have recently tried the original chartwell ls3/5a and that speaker made me realize that something less detailed and more smooth and warm could be more to my liking.
the amphion are so fast and detailed, that sometimes, I find them a bit puzzling to understand the musical passage. musicality may be a bit lost under all the details. the chartwell clearly show only the musical intent and makes listening very ''Easy'' and soothing.@ b.l.zeebub as I said, the amphion are by far better then a lot of very well reknown speaker I have tried. I think you are refering here to the ions? the pro line amphions do not show 10% THD, dont have forward bass nor wolly imo. they are the best bass I have ever heard in a bookshelve and truly is the best bass I have compared so far. the amphion at gearslutz is not a hype, its a fact. they are truly incredible speakers and so far, nothing I have ever had or heard came close, tbh. and I have had and heard quite a lot.
can you please provide a link of your british review?
Let's see for monitor 30.1
but the experience with amphion led me to believe that perfect accuracy may not be the best approach for best musical pleasure listening experience.
Edits: 06/28/15 06/28/15 06/28/15
d
Edits: 07/02/15 07/02/15 07/02/15 07/02/15 07/06/15
Well to YOU they may be better, but they aren't to me nor others - the tin can spritzy utterly unlistenable treble, lack of cohesion and mediocre build quality is not exactly the stuff of legend. Show me the rave reviews of best in show or the mountains of reviews that have praised them over the years?
Your posts don't even make sense - if the speakers were so damn great you would not have sold them. So who cares? You're selling them in the hopes of finding a speaker that is smooth (ahem that means the Amphion WAS NOT SMOOTH). It sounds like you have no idea what you want in a loudspeaker - and all the speakers you compared the Amphion to are all VASTLY better sounding loudspeakers so perhaps your room or front end gear or hearing is majorly screwed up.
you have never heard the new amphion pro line!
why do you talk about amphion as if all models sounds the same. very unprofessional to comment on a speaker you have never heard!
the amphion came out at the top of the high end nearfield test at gearslutz, they are incredibly coherent, much more then audio note. I had an j lx, not even close, the amphion are much better then my audio note speakers.to be honest, you are truly not a person I trust in audio. your trolling about audio note and accusing people who doesnt share your love for audio note to have poor ears.
Edits: 06/28/15 06/28/15 06/28/15 06/28/15
It is possible the more expensive model is better but when you hear a fairly pricey model that is probably the worst thing I've heard in its price class - it remains difficult to NOT be highly skeptical. However, you are correct it may be great. Send me a pair and I will try it out or direct me to the Hong Kong dealer and I will give them another try.
I would rather have some more credible (non paid) reviews credible of their products to see if it's worth my time though - Titanium tweeters - small narrow baffle no bass and fairly expensive nearfield speakers generally do not excite me.
They look a lot like the ones I heard here but I didn't catch the specific model.
Actually I should be the most trusted reviewer you will ever come across - for over a decade I have been utterly and virtually unflappably consistent in my preferences and I tell people what I like and dislike - and I try not to have people read 3000 words to kind of figure out if I like something or not.
As for people who don't hear it like me - well I'm right and they aren't. Too bad, so sad. ;-)
seriously, this conversation makes me very concern about your bias toward audio note.anyone with good eyes and experience should have realize that the one18 is nothing like the ion. the only comparison one could make with honesty is between the pro line and the hifi line would be with the argon line.
your unprofesionalism in comparing all amphion model to the small budget ion line is very suspicious to me.
the amphion argon have been highly reviewed. one reviewer said the argon 3 bookshelve gave the most impressive bass he ever heard from bookshelves.
soundstage tested and measured the argon 3l and 7l and has nothing to say but great things, ect. I think the reviewer actually said it was the best standmount he ever tried and bought the pair.
the one18 are 3 years of R&D based on the argon.I have nothing but praise for this amazing speaker and tbh, might very well come back to them as I could easily have lived with that speaker for good. its the first ever speaker I have had and tried that dont sound literally flawed in some way or another.
funny you say the amphion one18 is expensive. at gearslutz, its considered a absolute bargain and came out with the ''best bang for the buck'' for the highend nearfield test, where close to 30 monitors, some costing up to 15k, were compared and one18 was the favorite with the big 13k geithain
. the amphion one18 have been compared with monitors studio costing 2-3 times and hold their own and for many, actually beat most of PMC, PSI, sonic anima, ATC, Geithain. they are a bargain for what they offer and have been highly praise by now by any pro who tried them.I had An J lx in my room. I think there's much better out there.
maybe its the music we listen to, but i couldnt have lived with the lack of resolution all across the board, truly not the best tweeter/woofer integration, very ordinary bass. Voices was absolutely stunning though and i liked the incredible musicality of the AN j lx, still, I vastly prefered one18.lastly, the one18 are made in finland, by hand.
Edits: 06/29/15 06/29/15 06/29/15 06/29/15 06/29/15
According to Amphion themselves the difference between their domestic and pro offerings is in the name and nothing else.
the amphion pro line is not comparable to their hifi line.
the pro line has passive radiator and different tweeter.the pro line was designed in 3 years. their hifi line argon is from before and much more R&D went into their pro line. truly exceptional speakers and I may go back to them if harbeth or horns wont work as they are the best speaker I have heard to date. I may also try tannoy gold 15, jbl s2600. maybe horns will be the ticket for me?
Edits: 06/28/15
Pros can be star struck too.
The Amphions appear to be a poor excuse for a speaker. They produce 10%THD in the midrange at 85dB and according to a british magazine sound disjointed and forward with a woolly bass. They also bemoaned the cheap finish compared to other speakers in the same category.
But star producer Bruce Swedien said he liked them. I just hope he got paid well to say that.
Hey, Bub! Your reply is extremely interesting, as are all of your contributions to this Forum. The pros, though in general better informed than audiophiles, are just as subject to becoming fan boys.
They can also be just as bigoted-witness the impassioned denunciation of Genelecs-often, I suspect, by people who have never even heard them. This parallels the tribal excorcism of Bose 901s by audiophiles.
Do you have a link to the British magazine to which you earlier referred?
What hi-fi which practically LOVES everything reviewed the ION with one of the worst ratings that magazine has ever put out!!!!
Hearing a couple of second hand Amphions they seemed to fit the boom and sizzle mold of bad speaker sound to a tee.
They were pretty awful when I heard them
Have you HEARD Bose 901's?
Fun, but not anything like real music.
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
Thank you Chef!
The same goes the other way: Your contribution are always welcome and well-informed.
However you possess an eloquence I can only aspire to!
The Canadians tested the Amphion Ion here:
http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1027:nrc-measurements-amphion-ion-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
Visaton sell a kit which is almost identical to the little Amphions but I suspect substantially better as they use far better drivers:
http://www.visaton.com/en/bauvorschlaege/2_wege/studio2/index.html
It costs $489 the pair in North America.
Link here:http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/p/V-5881-Studio2/Studio+2+Speaker+Kit
And here is the link you asked for. Amphion got a staggering 2 out of 5 stars.
do you realize that the Amphion Ions and the Amphion one18 are completely different design?the ions are much cheaper. the one18 use different drivers, different crossover and design.
It make no sense to talk about amphion ion
Edits: 06/28/15 06/28/15 06/28/15
So that means that Anssi Hyvönen was telling lies when he said in an interview that some of their pro and domestic models are not just similar but identical except for model name.
If they are different Amphion is still misleading the public since Bruce Swedien only heard the Ions.
Also a woolly bass can only be more woolly if one replaces a port with a passive radiator.
It's in the nature of how PRs work.
again, for the second time. please link where anssi said the ion is the same as the pro line and also the british magasine that tested the pro line and said that bass was wooly. very interested!
After all, everyone knows that ALL speakers from the same manufacturer always sound the same, regardless of components used, design features, and the price.
LOL.
It is not even close. Not in the same universe.
Think Ferrari and Ford.
You don't seem to imply.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
I thought it would be fairly obvious. The KEF's are toys compared to the Harbeth 30.1.
This entire thread is ridiculous.
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
If I remember correctly, you owned and sold the LS50's.
I believe they were the most overhyped speaker in recent history.
What is your unbiased take on where they had shortcomings against better, and yes, more expensive monitors?
And use them in my home theater with a KEF center channel.
I think they are very good speakers and a bargain at the price.
But, yeah, Stereophile class A? Lots of hype with this speaker, but it's still a good speaker.
But compared to 30.1's? Not in the same league.
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
Got it.
But I also think they are not in the same league of dozens of other stand mounts I have heard.
This, and the famous Benchmark DAC, is the most whored out product I have seen. The reviewers need dealers and manufacturers, and the over top gushing and Class A rating moved some boxes, so everybody on the inside was happy.
Dozens? Can you name some, I'd be very interested.
I prefer the Spendor S3/5R2, the Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2, and probably a few others if I could hear them.
But it's close. I don't think I could name ten stand mounts in this price range I'd prefer to the KEF's.
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
Not dozens at the LS50 price point..but at higher price points. But those higher price points get you much more satisfying speakers.
I agree with what you're saying but we should probably be fair to KEF and keep the price in the equation. There's no shame at all in being bested by a speaker for 50% more money. I mean the KEF is $1500 and if it loses to a $2250 loudspeaker - well it SHOULD lose to that speaker. But indeed the KEF probably hangs in and betters an awful lot of such priced loudspeakers (or indeed is just as good but different sounding). Speakers can be just as good but sideways moves.
For a lot of folks $1500 is a huge huge investment on a loudspeaker and may be their max amount. So noting that more expensive speakers are better is like saying well you should get the Toyota Lexus because is is far more enjoyable than the Honda Civic. Sure (at 4 times the price) but lets talk about what is better at the Civic's price (if anything).
And I haven't found stuff that completely walks all over the KEF LS-50 for the same price - I like some other speakers better in the treble and some better for tonality but the KEF often brings superior imaging or soundstaging acumen to the table.
I kind of think the KEFs get a little more backlash than they deserve because of the overthetop reviews which is awfully tough to live up to in terms of expectations - people are expecting the world's best loudspeaker when they go to hear them and what they get is a very good small monitor - it just can't live up to the hype. Any little wart in the sound will be pounced on.
Stop making sense. You're making the rest of us look bad.
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
I will agree that the LS50 is probably more appealing than a lot of 1000-1500 US speakers, some made with cheap veneers, and that fall into the "budget" line of some big manufacturers.I would still take the Spendor s35R2 over the KEF any day of the week and the Harbeth mini too. And a number of other monitors like those from Proac etc.
And to your point about $1500 being a "big investment"..it is about priorities. People have NO trouble justifying a $2000 60 inch TV that they will flip in 3 years or less but god forbid spend that on speakers that may last decades.
The KEF, IMO, again, IMO, commits one unforgivable sin. It just sounds like the material it is made of. The driver material puts too much of a stamp on the music.
Lastly, it really is not a $1500 investment, because in all but the smallest rooms without a sub it just has no weight.
Edits: 06/29/15
Thanks for the answer to the comparison.
lol, I know.
but price in hifi is very little indicator of quality.
I still will go for harbeth
Edits: 06/27/15
You might be paying a lot of extra money for UK manufacture, old-style construction methods, finish quality, etc... Nothing wrong with that, of course.
I dont think going harbeth is just for nice finish
"Just for the nice finish"? No one said or implied such a thing.I can think of a few different reasons for the higher cost of Harbeth speakers, as I've stated. The 30.1 speakers cost four times as much as LS50 speakers do and they almost look four times nicer than the LS50 does. Let's hope the Harbeths can whip some ass sonically as well.
Edits: 06/28/15
What he thinks is better sounding and what you wind up thinkink sounds better may be quite different.
First - they won't sound the same and that is fairly obvious. Beyond that it's going to come down to preference. The Amphion's tizzy metalic sounding tweeters he seemed to be quite impressed with telling me what giant killers they are and then selling them a month later now for something smoother (ie not an irritating disaster).
Second - the Harbeths cost more to make likely because of where they are made. England versus China. Things like wages, unions, health care etc - you know caring about the plight of the worker at least a "little bit." On the flip side they likely don't invest nearly as heavily in marketing and other facilities/overhead so they may save money there.
Personally, I find the Harbeths on the too expensive side of the equation for what you get BUT I would say that they are more musical and more satisfying than the KEFs (exception is the P3 which to me is an overpriced LS-3/5a in a nicer cabinet) - but I get why some would prefer it over the LS-50. So while the Harbeths may (IMO) be too expensive I think there is higher pride of ownership and higher resale value.
Ultimately, how much you like, love or dislike the KEF is how well the treble plays in your room with your gear - the metal tweeter is a metal tweeter and you know it is a metal tweeter.
The Harbeth is going to just be able to sound more right without a helluva lot of work - even in HK in a CD shop they were up on the ceiling facing down with rubbish front end and it sounded really musical - bad positioning, bad electronics and sounded engaging. The Kefs are fussier - so while you may save some money on the actual speaker you may have to spend much more of the difference saved to get them to sound right.
I would take the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus over either my AX Two or KEF LS-50 any day of the week. But at several times the price I would kind of expect that.
I (and presumably others) would be curious to read your recommendations in different price ranges. This would be assuming that all could be driven with low to moderate power.
1) $1,500
2) $2,500
3) $3,500
4) 5 - 10k
The fact that you are a reviewer and have access/opportunity to hear far more makes than the average audiophile on the street is of value (at least in my view).
Thanks.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
The list is pretty long and I would leave too many out. I am better at higher price ranges because I have kind of moved a little above the "up and over the $2k price points now.
I did list some of the brands I have liked over a cross section of prices but I am sure to have left some ones I quite like off.
Yes, that would explain the price.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Yeah, that explains in all. Those greedy unionists causing audiophiles the world over uncontrolled grief and sorrow. Damn those people who are trying to achieve a better life for their families by fairly negotiating for wages, health care, and working conditions.
Damn, from now on I'm buying Chinese hi-fi gear only.
I mean why would anyone want those things - and more pay.
In the US many bosses can demand that you provide urine samples, can basically fire you without cause - you look a little fat - you're fired. You vote liberal - you're fired. You're black - you're fired. "At will"
Unions have their problems - but as the saying goes - "Companies deserve the Unions they get" so if you're union is a brutal disaster - the chances are it's because the company was an even bigger arse to start with.
If companies treated their workers half way fairly no one would need a union. There is a reason they form - the boss is an ass.
The bottom line is self interest - as an employee it's my job to look out for me and if the boss is a turd then I can either leave or force the boss to pay up. The boss' job is also to look out for him/herself and history has shown (indeed present day has shown) that companies ALWAYS choose profit over lives. Pretty much the entire clothing industry is actively or "looking the other way" on child slave labour they use in third world countries. I mean they're not white kids.
If you don't believe unions have outlived their usefulness (like the NAACP), then you are fooling yourself. Both had their time and place, long since gone.
carry on.....
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Wasn't it George Bush who said that we must constantly fight to keep our freedoms? It's quite easy to grow passive and allow freedoms to be slowly chipped away if you don't stay vigilant.
Granted at least we can have the option to have a union - in many of the slave labour markets they'll just kill you. Big Business always has your interests in mind. They're just the NICEST of people now aren't they.
Donald Trump - a bastion of kindness and caring.
Fortunately there ARE (well WERE) intelligent conservatives and Republicans: This fellow might have been the last
*"Workers have a right to organize into unions and to bargain collectively with their employers. And a strong, free labor movement is an invigorating and necessary part of our industrial society."
*"Only a fool would try to deprive working men and women of their right to join the union of their choice."
*"Should any political party attempt to abolish Social Security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things, but their number is negligible and they are stupid."---Republican President Dwight Eisenhower
So, should Alan Shaw of Harbeth ban unions? Maybe that will make you happy because it will lower prices a bit. The workers? Who cares about them as long as you can get your speakers at a cheaper price. If Alan transferred production to China, prices would be even lower. Nirvana.
As far as the NAACP is concerned, the constitution allows us to join any organization we want. That includes the Klu klux klan, too.
"As far as the NAACP is concerned, the constitution allows us to join any organization we want. That includes the Klu klux klan, too."
Well only one of them is slightly less worthless than the other.
As far as the speakers and their price. I really don't give two s&*ts.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Which one would that be?
Lest you take me for a racist, I will just say the answer to that question is obvious. And I will leave it at that.......
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Blaming unions for offshoring is drinking the KoolAid - I bet you also believe in "trickle down"
Most of the economic wisdom of the last 40 years is upside down - unless you want to create an oligarchy like we currently have.
As Paul Weller wrote 30 years ago "They take the profit, you take the blame"
JaroTheWise
.
Really?
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
It depends on what you are comparing between the two. Why not let 'em duke it out? "No holds barred" is actually making more sense to me anyway. Might have to use a subwoofer with the LS50 just to even things up a bit.Have you owned both speakers?
Edits: 06/27/15 07/13/15
The Harbeths are $16,000 cheaper than the Sonus Faber Guarneri Evolutions. Both require stands.
The Harbeths absolutely clobber the LS-50's across the board.
But you'd have to be crazy to pay.... is it seven grand now?
Good reviews = insane prices (if you're a Harbeth importer).
"A lie is half-way around the world before the truth can get its boots on."
-Mark Twain
$5995
....the Harbeths should actually sell for roughly half of what they do, maybe less....
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
The retail price of the Harbeth 30.1 in the UK is the equivalent of $3450 (plus tax - but that isn't the fault of the mfg).OK the LS50s are even cheaper.So the place of manufacture, unions, etc. have not a great deal in relation to what you are being charged in the USA or, it seems, Canada.
It's not the first time that I have written about this subject.
Hey, the OP could buy his 30.1s here and continue his visit as a nice short vacation with the balance. He won't have to pay the tax, not being an EU citizen.
Edits: 06/28/15 06/28/15
internet nonsense. they are priced exactly where they need to be and are worth more.
Demand outpaces supply by a wide margin.
6000.00 can buy a lot of speaker. To each his own.......
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
Or maybe the KEFs should sell for roughly twice - as they probably would if they were made in the UK like the Harbeths are.
Edits: 06/28/15
this thread can be closed.
I have listened to the kef ls50 and will listen to 30.1 this week.
Be sure to get back to us on this, later on. Try to audition both of them in good rooms.
Edits: 06/28/15
If the KEF wins that will be great for the audiophiles on a budget!
Cheers
Bill
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