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Hello again!
A few months back, I posted this:
"I am considering a new pair of speakers. I currently own Focal 826W which are powered by a Pass x250. I only listen to vinyl. I listen to rock, jazz and classical. I would like to find speakers that are not as bright. Otherwise, I do like these very much. I appreciate their low end, but I am not obsessed with bass. I like that the bass is tight and punchy and not distorted and booming. How/where should I begin? Should I consider the used market or is it too risky? I would appreciate any advice. Thank you."
Before I had the chance to respond, the topic went way off course. I was hoping that we could start over? Please?
My new room with have hardwood floors and be around 8.5' x 13'. Someone asked what my budget was. I am guessing around 5K. I wonder though if I should keep my amp or get some low watt tube amp and run super sensitive speakers? I am lost. Right now I am considering Harbeth Super HL5 Plus or Focal 1028Be. Any advice? Thank you again.
Follow Ups:
Keep me posted- TS.
Consider a pair of Ref 3A de Capos, 92db flat response, detailed
i run them in a 12 x 22 room with a 4wpc Decware mini torii and while I don't get super loud it produces a good volume of sound. I have used the de capos with primaluna and Vista audio and Grommes tube amps and the all sounded very nice
But heck, once I see classical, jazz and vinyl - I think tubes!It just seems like classical and GOOD tubes just go together.
I'm running a restored Sherwood S-5000 with Zaph Audio SR-71 speakers. And honestly - I can't see it being replaced EVER!
Also consider speakers with paper cones. they have a more natural sound. High efficiency speakers also have their peccadilloes that can be difficult to work around. You may need to rethink your setup vs. needs.
If I had $5k and had to start over, I would go with a pair of Bob Latino's M-125 KT88 monoblocks and a CJ tubed hybrid preamp. Ha, if I only had the money
Edits: 05/28/15
Your room will likely be the biggest challenge being smaller. I have a small room as well. Consider the JansZen stand mount zA1.1 ESLs. You have plenty of power to drive these, and with their frequency response flat to 30Hz you shouldn't need a subwoofer. They also have bass and tweeter controls to tailor for your room. Who has a perfect room?
My music tastes are similar to yours and I'm 95% vinyl also. I have the larger JansZen zA2.1s and love them. The zA1.1s are in your budget.
I recently purchased a pair of Mini T's in real wood Boston Cherry finish. Wonderfully balanced sound top to bottom. Excellent detail with deep, tuneful bass and beautiful midrange. I have mine on sand filled 20" stands.
I second this as a good speaker to look into. I lived with a pair for a couple of months and they do everything well and are an excellent buy dollar wise.
I used to own Focal Chorus 826 speakers and found them overly bright too. I switched to Tannoy Precision 6.4's and the improvement was way better than I expected. No more harshness, just a big precise musical image.
Might be worth an audition if you have a dealer near by.
And get some carpets on those h/w floors.
forget magnepans this type of speaker needs AT LEAST 3 ft. behind it.
I don't think you have the room. Ideally you would have a smaller
sealed speaker to put close to the wall. Hard to find these days.
Best I can come up with if you can't make your existing very nice speakers work would be GR Research AV-3.
that is sm. rm for such a setup. I really like the focal speakers
and have them on a short list of balanced truly hifi speakers.
the ones I heard were not bright on top. I forget the model but
they had two 6" drivers and one tweeter. I am not a fan of the harbeths.many things to try before you move on. remember there is no free lunch in audio. if you go high sensitivity and low power you might very well miss the dynamics and control your current setup has. You have good speakers and amps, some of the best. Usually very sensitive speakers are
not as smooth and flat as well damped (like the sandwich woofer you have).
They seldom go as low either.first thing is to treat the hell out of your walls and ceiling. do the first reflection points but also have absorbtion panels in between the speakers and behind your head. this will cost very little compared to new equipment. I have upgraded equipment many times only to find that the room was the problem. Play recorded music as you install your panels. I bet you will hear a great improvement with each panel you install. Stop when the sound becomes dull. With a low powered system one often cannot damp the room enough because it sucks power from the system.
you might try some socks or bungs in your speaker ports. this could really help in a sm. room.
it is very easy and cheap to insert a resistor in the speaker cable.
this mimics a tube amp. Try it!perhaps you could get a preamp that allows for different loads on your cartridge. you should be able to knock down the top this way.
look at the crossovers on your speakers. if there is a resistor in front of the tweeter curcuit you could change that out for a slightly bigger one. there should be a 7 w 1.8ohm resistor before the tweeter. You could change that out for a 2.5 or 3, once again for almost no cost. Don't like?
change it back. this is completely legitimate in order to match your amp to your speakers, ears, source, and room.good luck. let us know!
Edits: 05/27/15 05/27/15
That size room is too small for the HL5. Vandersteens would also be too large. You should get a nice stand mounted monitor. I have the Harbeth P3ESR and it is a great fit for a smaller room. You can check out some other ones from Spendor,ATC,Stirling,etc. A speaker with a sealed woofer is a great choice for small real estate!
You really think that the Harbeths would be too big?!
I absolutely have to agree with BCR here. My room is very small at 11.5' X 14.5' and I pretty much can't have any floorstander or remotely larger speaker at all and your room is quite a bit smaller yet. Right now I have a decent sized standmount speaker, Roksan Darius S1, quite a ways away from the wall and am still using foam bungs I made to block the rear ports.
In your room, I would suggest something like a high quality standmounter that is either sealed or something like the ELAC BS403 that is down-ported with its own plinth to manage the porting distance. I'm not saying that the ELAC BS403 is the right speaker at all for you (disclosure, I carry ELAC), but I'm saying that the design would be a great fit for your room. Have a look at the link to see the kind of design I'm talking about.
Yes I do.This is a nice review of my suggestion. They are great in a small room.
You should add Vandys to your short list. I would suggest the model 2Ce, or model 3A. Because of their popularity, Vandys show up quite frequently on the used market at very reasonable prices. Vandys deliver one of the biggest bangs for buck of any manufacturer.
I like the Focal speakers that I have heard. I would wait until you are in the new room and reevaluate.
If you are going to change go for a real change or you might just lateral.
I would consider among others Ohm, Maggies and ATC. They all are distinctive and different than Focals. I have no experience with Harbeth.
The Ohms and some Maggies can be ordered with a home trial.
A brand which is popping up more often is the Ryan Speaker. Three models: monitor, 2 1/2 way and a three way up to $5k.
Only reason why I bring them up s that their bass distortion levels are extraordinarily low. Claim is less than 1% at full power (200 watts). I have the monitor and even at 50 watts, the distortion level is extremely low and matches the rest of the drivers.
Find a pair to audition, or check out the various audio shows
Hmm, I heard Ryan speakers on recent Axpona show and they sounded really nice indeed. Somehow, they remained me of old good Proac boxes from the past.
Most/all modern speakers are too bright. If the speaker has likable qualities and the only culprit is the wretched tweeter why not yank the crossover out and add a pair of resistors to pad down that sucker? OR /and put the felt mat around HF unit?
Reference 3A mmDeCapo are reasonably efficient and would fit your criteria and room.
I have a bit larger room but with a rug. Very realistic mid-range and highs. Usually the only complaint is not having massive bass.
Used has worked fine for me.
While this may sound obvious- the sound is the culmination of your source, pre- Power am AND speakers-
If you are going to keep everything BUT the speaker - make sure you get an in-home audition, or at least review the speakers with your amp-
Happy Listening
I understand. I attempted to ameliorate the harshness by adding a tubed phono preamp, it really did not help at all. I think part of the problem is the shape/size of my current room and that fact that it has no damping anywhere. The other problem is that I know that there is always something better out there! Are Thiels a bad choice for a SS amp like a Pass?
...Thiels will sound great with Pass amps - I would recommend any of the X.5 models.Having said that, I prefer good tubed amps on mine.
The most important room treatments (after rugs) will be absorbing first reflections from the tweeters on the side walls.
(I see you, too, are a pharmacist - welcome!)
Edits: 05/29/15
Thank you mkuller!
There's the biggest problem ( the room itself) as I see. No amount of component/speaker swapping will compensate if you haven't addressed room acoustics. I would start by looking at absorbing panel and diffusion options from GIK or ATS Acoustics. Simple placement of the panels on the front wall ( behind the speakers) and first reflection points is a good start. Diffusion devices placed behind the listening position would be # 2. If the floor is a hard surface, start shopping for area rugs. As far as "small room" speakers go, I've never had anything sound more at home in a small room than an Ohm Micro or 1000.
I don't know anything about the new Thiels, but you'd probably find the old models 'bright' as well.
Have you tried adding a rug to your room? Other treatments might help if walls are bare. In addition to all that, I'd also play around with speaker placement and toe-in. That could significantly improve tonal balance.
I will have a new room soon and I plan to purchase a new rug. I still think that it is time for an upgrade.
I think that's the place to start. A nice thick rug and some damping panels for the walls could be transformative.
Hmm... if that's the case, I recommend auditioning a pair of Vandersteen 3A Signatures. It's what I have in my system. They retail for $4775 but you can find them on the used market for about half that. An important consideration is that the current production has a woven midrange that improves the sound.
http://vandersteen.com/products/model-3a-signature
Since you have already identified issues in your room, I would work on getting that sorted out before buying new speakers. You will certainly get something that sounds different, but might not cure the problem you now have.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
From what I have heard and read - the thiels like power- You certainly have lots of clean power w/ the Pass amps-
If it is really room/system matching - I would look at trying a few things to help that issue -
I'll acknowledge that the hi-fi I have in our living room is an "approved" install - but not my main listening rig/location-
and what I have been able to do in my listening room is up to my tastes alone...
Having said this- there are some very attractive devices that can address some issues-
I would encourage that you look into this - as new speakers may change the balance from a system perspective - but into the same room - may create new imbalances that are more unpleasant...
Happy Listening
I want to ask a very stupid question, if I may, about the Harbeths. They are small speakers, how much low end will I be giving up going from my 826W to monitors? Will I need a sub?
TSWisla,
I can't speak to the Harbeths- read a lot about them - but I have not heard them-
I have a pair of small Focals and have heard others- but not the Harbeths-
Happy Listening
Try Scansonics if you can. They are made by Raidho. I was blown away by them at Axpona, and they come in at $3500. Small 2 and half way towers, they should be great in your room with that amp. Quality just can't be beat.
bigshow
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