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Need advice on the basic components of a system for a new home build.
I've always loved a great set of speakers but could never bring myself to actually ponying up the money. Three kids, college funds, a wife who can't tell the difference. We are building a new home and had a full Sonos system suggested - lots of speakers in ceiling, two nice TVs with Sonos soundbar, the works. But I would like better speakers. Current budget including Sonos and TVs and some networking is $25,000. Willing to spend up to $40,000. Trying to accomplish:
1)Hopefully keep Sonos or similar full home easy alternative for my wife and other family members convenience. Sonos alternatives if any?
2)I would like one room amazingly well set-up, preferably for both sound and TV, but acceptable if just for music listening. I am thinking perhaps the shared living room, but worried a small bit at going to war with the three kids if I just want to chill out to music. Second alternative is to turn the two car garage (which is becoming an office/gym) into office/gym/AV room. Advantage is that the construction is not complete yet so I could do sound treatments vs living room which has attached atrium on the side. Any life experience that you can all share here on how to decide whether to go separate or together? I want to use it as much as possible but also maximize the value of my spend. Is it pointless to spend money on good speakers if I don't have the best acoustical setup of the room (opening to the side, no current sound treatment).
3)Speakers I like - I loved the Wilson Sabrina speakers for classical, but they are out of my budget. I listen to more than just classical, very wide repertoire. I don't blast music, just want rich reproduction at medium levels of sound, I really respond to being able to hear each individual instrument or line in a piece of music. Tried the Paradigm speakers and didn't love those. I'm interested in Sonus Faber Olympica II series but not sure if I can pair everything together and accomplish everything at that price. Still need to audition them since they were not setup at the store I went to.
4) Don't need surround sound.
So if I'm trying to accomplish all of the above, what exactly do I need? All I have as far as components that made the move: a couple of old KEFs, a cheap amp I bought on Amazon, and 3-4 sonos speakers. What do I do from here given the constraints I've outlined?? You have $15,000 or so to replace Sonos and add speakers, DAC, CD etc.
Follow Ups:
2nd note;
Better news, there is a plethora of used/demo gear in the marketplace.
Once you find your components- it gets better!
OP-
the good news there has never been a better time to get into Audio.
You should have some great to excellent dealers/retailers in your local area. Get out there and listen, listen, listen to the gear!
IMHO you should get the speakers you know you like and already want and build your system on the basis of finding amps and source components that fit your speakers and listening preferences rather than doing it backwards. The Sabrinas list price is about 15k so it is well within your budget and then you can work on amps that can meet its need for current - perhaps a set of used Mark Levinsons or McIntosh that have the autoformers outputs. Ypu might get lucky and find a used set of VTLs.
No amp is right for every speaker or vice versa and if you build a system around speakers you don't love, trying to substitute your speakers after a system is built is hit or miss. You can also choose preamps dacs or phono cartridges that play to the strengths of the speakers or lessen their more annoying traits.
What I'm getting at is that if you know you like the speakers, and given your budget - go ahead and get them. The rest will take care of itself in time.
BTW, on the subject of speaker cable I am using twisted pairs of cloth insulated 16 ga solid copper Bell wire from the fifties. Tried much more expensive stuff- back to the Bell.
Many use the Sonos and Pandora tied to a DAC.There are many after-market units to convert the output to S/PDIF or AES-EBU.Opening dacs to look at Blue Circle and Audionote.Upstream,possibly the Berkley or similar.
The Wilsons are going to need some high quality amps to drive them.Some warm solidstate or possibly the VAC renaissance series (35/70 monos or 70/70-140s).
The Wisons have an unusual impedance on them.Best to have a little extra power/headroom.Possibly a high powered integrated,as the HT is not necessary.
If not Wilson,then possibly the Spatial Audio M3-4,Sonus Faber Cremona or Kharma 3.2
Just my $.02.Take it for what it's worth.
Tom:cat
I am going to answer very honestly because I a am also in some of the same ship you are in, moving and thinking about what room to make my own.
Big disclaimer: I manufacture Horn Loudspeakers, which of course I will be talking about, feel free to ignore me.
I have learned some cool things lately: Big expensive cables help a lot! Maybe even more tan big expensive gear. Room treatment is, well really important, bad room treatment is also, very bad: but not as bad as NO room treatment.
Of course Speakers are the most important thing in a sound system: The horns speakers we make (40k) are the best and the last speaker you will ever need to buy. They will run pretty well with a 1k used SET amp putting out a couple of watts and a high current amp, for bass only, of course...
After that get cables and Diffusers for room treatment.
You should have your source worked out already; either you have a bunch of downloaded-copied music in a hard drive or an old collection of Lps and some way to play them.
High End audio is a trip: you will enjoy every time you put in your system a new 2k power cord, and relisten to all your music yet again, with even more realism!
Every upgrade should be a new glass of wine and a chance to relax and trip out and enjoy your system.
After a lot of thought and bad experiences I decided I will go for the Garage. The living room doesnt really allow for after hours listening and some times that is all the time I have to relax! And I woudnt want to wake the kids up... If they are awake and listen to music, they will come in and share.
Want Home Theater, get a cheap projector and a Blue ray player from Walmart! Hook that up to your real High End audio system, makes more of a difference than High Res and bottle cap speakers!
Just put real Wood flooring in 1/3 or 1/4 of the room where your audio gear will go and carpet the rest: fill the walls and ceiling with every kind of diffuser known to man.
Now you are far ahead in audio heaven and only enjoying upgrades...
When ever you got the cash, the need or an opportunity!
> Big expensive cables help a lot!
I'm curious about this. What expensive cables do you use? Have you compared them against an inexpensive 10-gauge stranded oxygen free copper cable that sells for about a dollar a foot?
The reason I'm asking is because I bought the least expensive reasonably high quality 10-gauge cable I could find on eBay and I terminated it with Nakamichi gold banana plugs. I think it sounds great. However, a good friend brought over his expensive Cardas cables that looked the size of garden hose. I couldn't tell the difference. My friend said my cables were borderline unlistenable and his big expensive cables improved the sound quite noticeably. I couldn't tell the difference. I thought my system was very listenable with either set of speaker cables.
Anyway, I'm just wondering if you've ever tried the inexpensive wire I'm using. It sounds really good to me and costs only a dollar a foot. My amplifier is the Parasound Halo A21 and my speakers are Thiel CS3.7. Here is the wire I'm using:
KnuKonceptz Kord Speaker Wire Ultra Flex Blue OFC 10 Gauge
24K Gold Nakamichi Speaker Banana Plug
Here is my system:
I would suggest entry level Kimber or straight wire if you are so inclined....
Hmmm. That doesn't seem like ordinary 10 gauge, though it certainly is economical enough. How long of a run? Bi-wired?
Perhaps they are just a good match for your system. I've come to believe that matching is more important than what you pay for any individual component.
Perhaps they are just a good match for your system.
Since I run electrostatic speakers, inductance is very important. 10 gauge Belden 5T00UP has more than twice the value than my JPS Labs cable (0.15uH vs. 0.06uH) and somewhat more capacitance (26 pF vs 20 pF) resulting in a far higher effective dielectric constant (3.77 vs 1.16).
That is a way of quantifying the energy storage and potential time smear of the cable where a "perfect" cable would have an EDC of 1.0.
Each speaker cable is eleven feet. Thiel speakers have only one set of speaker connections -- no bi-wire.
> Perhaps they are just a good match for your system.
Well, they are definitely a good match for my system. Moreover, I'm skeptical about expensive garden hose type speaker cables being any better based on the one experience I've had so far. ;-)
Sorry for the late reply,
If I want to go cheap I would go for Monster clear plastic, dont know the model, just plain OFC copper. I agree most cables are just something better than others, not really worth the trip.
Echole Signature cables Are crazy good, infuriating to see how much a cable can do, and how expensive it can get. They can transform your system more tan almost any amp, dac, preamp change.
Kubala are that good too.
Not connected to them...
Sonos for the whole house 40k wtf...
Give your old KEF speakers to your kids and start them up into real audio gear...
Big Maggies
Top of the line Ohms (home demo)
Focal
Audionote
And others suggested here. Listen. Go to a show or shops.
Then an amp/pre (with HT bypass) for synergy and more than enough power. If possible have a professional room treatment done.
Blow the rest on your digital source. You can get lots of good ideas by looking at smart inmates systems. Add an nice sub SVS , Rythmic, REL, old M&K and some moderate but well matched surround sound speakers and a processor.
This kind of a set up will last and be flexible. Sounds like fun.
The size of room impacts the suggestions greatly.
Find your preference for sound. Systems range, in design, rather greatly today and there are many many more brands today than 25 years ago. Your music, volume, bass, preferences will dictate the suggestions as well. Take your time and enjoy the hunt.
Here are comments to all the questions posted so far:
The room is really a garage that we are converting.
21'0 wide x 19'3" deep. On the left side will be a desk and office setup, at the deep side some weights, but otherwise open.
The roof height varies tremendously, up to about 15' in places, but many different angles. See attached.
For the record, I had my amp for 20 years and my speakers for 24. Talk about a low cost of ownership. First date of ownership was around puberty, last day I had three kids. I am hoping for 20+ years out of these puppies too and am willing to spend based on the previous experience.
Honestly the biggest issue is just that I find there is so much choice it is almost overwhelming. I'm hoping just to narrow the search a bit using the kind advice of board members
My main question is really how to split up the budget:
1) acoustic treatments including dedicated lines for sound
2) DAC - $2K? My audiophile friend recommends DAC202 from Weiss but feels a bit too pricey?
3) Integrated amp? My friend recommends Accuphase E-206. Next step down in price? $3K?
4) Obviously speakers - this is where I want to spend most of my time. I am just not sure I will detect too much difference beyond minimum spend on some of these items but I have always noticed the difference of good speakers. $7K?
Does this budget setup make sense? Which 3-4 brands should I hone in on for each area? I feel like I can audition 3-4 of each, but not 10. Too many choices!!
Thank you all!
I think you should look for a good A/V system installer in your area who has a background and love for two channel. I've talked to a few of those guys and many of them have a real love for high end audio and are doing HT stuff because that's where the money is. You're going to have much better luck getting anything you put into that garage to sound good if you make sure the room is good first.
A Garage would have to be well treated pretty much regardless of speakers used.
There is hugely differing opinions on brand - you've already been given Magnepan but you know for every person I have met including reviewers who love Magnepan I have met one or two who don't. All speakers and all systems regardless of price have compromises. You may find a system that has holographic imaging but sounds too bright - another is a bit coloured but offers huge dynamics - or the speaker that is clear as bell and sounds exciting but over time becomes fatiguing and you can't pinpoint exactly why.
Budgets are virtually pointless as well - you will have people who believe most of the money should be put to loudspeakers and the least to the source and amp while others believe that source first is the most important (because no speaker can fix a bad information that it gets).
I typically recommend High Efficiency speakers (easy to power) because I feel they perform better at low volumes and they seem to escape some room induced issues as well as their own cabinet resonances. Further I like to have a wide choice in amplifiers - my speakers can be run with 7 watts and IME the best sounding amplifiers are Single Ended Triode (SET). And the best systems I have heard have all been SET based systems. I stress that this is my experience and my preference it is NOT gospel though I do tend to write like a fact sometimes - persuasive writing training at Uni kind of does that to you.
The following speakers I have liked and could work - really it comes down to what sort of thing will work in that room as well.
All of the following I have enhjoyed and range between $5k to $20k that would fill your room.
Off hand
Audio Note E (20 versions more than 20 finishes)(I own these so bias is here) - you may remember them as the Snell Type E which is what they're based upon
Acoustic Zen Crescendo
DeVore Orangutan 0/96
Trenner and Freidl RA Box
Harbeth M40
ATC SCM (all the SCM models)
Teresonic Ingenium
Usher B10
Reference 3a Grand Veena
KingSound Prince II or King
Soundlab U1 (second hand - even with your budget may be tough)
Silbatone Aporia Full Range
Sony SS AR-1
Perfect 8 Technologies The Force (way out of your budget however)
Acapella (models with plasma tweeters)(way out of your budget however)
Von Gaylord
Focal Utopia series (when set-up as Bob Hodus sets them up)
Tidal Speakers
Kharma speakers
RossoFiorintino
YG Acoustics (with Ypsilon amps)
Tannoy Presige Series
Studio Eletctric Type 3
Gallo Acoustics 3.5
I could probably come up with a dozen more if I go through my notes.
On a budget for a DAC you could look at the Line Magnetic 502CA that I own - it's nice because it's under $2k and has both a tube and SS section so you can switch back and forth allowing you to tailor the sound somewhat - it has most of the connection options and is built well with separate transformers for SS and tube mode. I am currently writing a review but there are many out there. I also like Audio Note DACS and am looking at them for my next DAC (but considerably more money - 5 times the price of the LM - so ...)
If you are designing your music room from scratch, a few details might help. Size of room, ceiling height, and loudness preferences.....
If you really liked the Sabrinas, look for a used pair of Sasha W/Ps. There is a pair from a dealer on Agon right now for 15K.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
For classical, I think the larger Magnepans are often excellent, assuming you can place them well. That means at least 4 feet of space behind them. You don't need significant general absorption, but good randomized 'diffusion' behind them is quite beneficial.Now you have the advantage of planning a space instead of having a space and having to fit them in.
Magnepans have a natural, open tone, depth and soundstage size particularly favorable for classical. They're are a very good value for their sound quality, unless you heavily favor 'in your chest' type of bass and very energetic (e.g. aggressive rock/punk, not talking about Stravinsky) music sounds.
Some people just can't get into the dipole planar sound, but others find it irresistible and then think that most box speakers are pathetic after hearing them.
Think about the 3.7i at ~$6000 new. You'll need some decent high-current solid state amplifier.
You may be happier with a good music room, as much of the TV room may be taken over by video game sounds.
Edits: 05/11/15 05/11/15
Extremely helpful post, thank you. And right in my price range. After some feedback from this forum and elsewhere, I am going to look to design my own music room from scratch. Audio treatments, amp, etc. I have never purchased a DAC, any ideas on that? Or an amp that fits the price range of this system?
Thanks again.
As far as DAC's, many relatively inexpensive ones are very high quality.Schiit Bifrost Uber (~$500) is very nice.
Many people will have opinions on amplifiers. Mine is that, like DAC's, beyond a certain price point the differences are very small, and, for me, not worth worrying about. Likewise for cables.
I personally think that modern generation of class D amplifiers have quite a bit to offer---sound quality is on par or almost so, with the big behemoths, but the advantages in power consumption and lower size are quite noticeable. In class D, Wyred4sound and D-Sonic? Conventional amplifiers, Parasound and Anthem? Even an integrated amp.
Buying used is a good option. You can put a good 2-channel system for much less than the $25-$40k you budgeted.
Even try new: Magnepan 3.7i ~$6000, a good high-current amp, $1500-$2000, a preamp ($1000-$2000?), DAC $500, and a good sealed subwoofer (Rhythmik?) $1000. Maybe $13k total or less.
Edits: 05/11/15
You say you don't need surround sound but if the walls are open, then I'd run wiring now just in case. It can't cost that much and it's a lot easier at this stage to do it.
Do not throw your cigarette butts on the floor. The cockroaches are getting cancer.
Surround sound is amazingly fun. Just don't go overboard or get into making it a part of your two channel system.
Pioneer SP-C22 center channel speakers (use all center channel speakers) retail for $99. For under $1200 and well thought out planning you could have non intrusive yet satisfying 7.1 TV audio.
Dick's advise is very important especially installing AC and Coaxial outlets for wall mounting a display. I'd take it step further and install AC and XLR cable at every speaker location in case you upgrade to powered speakers.
.... I'm sure someone here will tell you what to do.
I think you need to educate yourself about audio gear OR just do what somebody else tells you to do.
The amount of actual effort you put in will be commensurate with the end result. Hint, hint, no effort = shit result.
The ball is in your court.
Smile
Sox
Yes, I was 13! My parents were really into music, and my brothers and I each got a decent stereo system when we turned 13. In my case it was a Luxman amp and KEF bookshelf speakers.
To be accurate, when I was 19 I also helped my parents outfit their basement AV room. Sony XBR, etc.
I know I can do research but also want to get input from people who are experts. That's why I'm posting on this board.
If you can't put together a great system for that kind of bread you are not doing your homework. Buy used gear and it gets even better.
Any particular advice on whether the room with the adjacent opening is going to be problematic for sound?
Only one way to find out for sure, try it. You can always put up a curtain rod and a heavy curtain to close when you are playing tunes.
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