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Hi,
In comparative listening to these two speakers over about a year's time, a question has come up for me upon which some of you might care to comment. It concerns overall sound and onset transients.
The overall quality is a bit softer, gentler, slightly less forceful presentation from the Quads that reduces tension and allows for a very pleasant listening session. It seems a bit more diffused-sounding. In general, the B&Ws have more detail. I simply hear more content with them than with the ESL-63s. However, this additional content is accompanied by a bit harder-sounding onset transients, a more forward presentation and, I would have to say, a bit more stressful listening experience at times.
In theory, it seems to me that the lighter, faster diaphragms of the electrostat ought to produce a faster, cleaner onset of sound, but that does not seem to be the case. It leaves me wondering whether the B&Ws are simply overly-crisp and the Quads accurate or the reverse--that the B&Ws are accurate and the Quads overly diffuse? Or might this be due to the larger radiating surface of the Quad's diaphragms?
As an aside, I also found bass performance interesting. I listened to the bass tracks of Stereophile's Test CD # 2 bass decade warble tones through the two speakers. Without the B&W Bass Alignment filter in the circuit, the Quads produced lower bass than did the B&Ws! With the Bass Alignment filter in the circuit, the B&Ws bass performance was equal to the Quads. Here I am speaking only of the audibility of these deep bass test tones, not the quality of the bass when reproducing music where the B&Ws have a more robust, forceful quality. This surprised and interested me because Quads are almost universally dissed for having "no bass". I have always found Quad bass, while a bit lean, to have good depth, clarity and seamlessness with the rest of the sonic picture.
BTW, for those who might ask, I am doing these listening comparisons with both solid state and valve amps (Parasound A-21 and Audio Research VT-100 respectively).
George
Follow Ups:
or starting transients, as they are commonly known among acousticians, it is possible they could make this vital part* of every note stand out more than they might live.* You see, we get most of characteristic timbre and the musician's expression and pitch from starting transients, ie much less than we get from the continuous tone and decay. So it is likely that a speaker which just doesn't futz with attacks, the QUAD 63 and its descendents, is the more accurate.
What a surprise that all these - aka FREDs - are so easy to listen to?!!!!?
{:-|}
I had a pair of 63s in the main system for just under a year recently and valued them so much that I am working on another point-source system, but using the Manger drivers from 170Hz up. Because they also are time and phase coherent.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 04/17/15
Thanks, Tim. I am curious how a steep crossover slope might sharpen or harden starting transients? I can understand the idea that, if two drivers are playing the same sound at once, the sounds might be blurrier that if they were isolated to a single driver. But don't most drivers operate by themselves over more of their range than the range where they are accompanied by another driver?
Thanks,
GR
But even real world crossovers have overlap. IIRC the 801 II's used 4LR crossovers, but even these have some overlap.
B&Ws are also regarded by some listeners as over-bright and edgy.
If you have more time with both speakers, try some of Tony Faulkner's recordings. Hyperion label has quite a few. He almost always uses a simple pair sometimes adding a few spots.
Listen and then listen again to interplay, expression and pitch. Timing is an aspect of all that.
That you are happy with the bass response of the 63s in your room cf. the 801 IIs, famous for deep bass down to 20 hz, is an indication that you should keep them!
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
...used to simulate a pulsing sphere. This has no effect on transients?
No, the coils are small, and the frequency response unchanged.
...see attached schematic. Notice everything takes place on the HT side of the step-up transformer at high impedance and that the inductors are not conventional.
Gee, it looks exactly the same as the balanced type I posted.
The unbalanced type I posted is used by B&W in several models.
...and far from "exactly". What you posted is one section that might be used with a dynamic driver at say 8 ohms and using essentially off the shelf parts. The 63 design is composed of a number of cascaded sections, each driving an estat panel at HV/high impedance. The inductors are not conventional: notice what are drawn as shorted turns at each coil. The network provides successive delay and response shaping to each concentric ring. The length of wire in the overall network is much greater than would be found in a conventional low impedance network.
In addition the only section of the speaker that reproduces the top octave is the central area. The round circle in the middle is connected directly to the to the secondary of the transformer, no delay line. It is only the successive annular rings that are connected to the delay line.
The delay line is designed to be lossy. It has to be to accomplish its goal of attenuating more HF and output as the signal moves away from the central area in addition to creating a time delay.
I own a rebuilt pr of the original ESL's, and I too find that the bass is good. Having owned B&W 801 III's. This is my perspective:
Quad, Open window, B&W Dirty Screen in window!
B&W Feel the Kick Drum, Quad hear the kick drum!
But I also must say the B&W's went much lower in bass, they hit the 20's in my room....
Thank you for your reply. I am curious how you determined the bass extension of your B&Ws. When I listened to the bass warble tones, I tried to compare volumes from one decade to another. I couldn't hear the 20 Hz tone. I could sort of feel it, which I would characterize as being aware of it by contrast to when it stopped. I could hear some of the lower notes, but not at the volume of higher pitches.
GR
First I play 1k and set the volume for 85db, then I go up and down the frequency ranges and plot a graph....
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