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Hi Everyone,
Putting differences in price aside...which of the above would do better in female vocals (full and vivid) and acoustic instrumental music. I listen to acoustic guitar and piano mostly. Life like instrument size is priorty too. In a nutshell, looking for a big and full sounding small/smallish speaker. Would like to avoid edgy,thin and fatiguing overall sound quality at all cost. I am extra sensitive to excessive HF...ie...sibilance and top end tizziness.
Room is treated (front wall bass traps and side wall 1st & 2nd reflection points)...10 x 16 x 9.
Listen to digital only...integrated tube amp 30 watts/ch.
Seeking some feedback from those who have had experience with the above mentioned speakers. Unfortunately, I have to audition at two different dealerships and with different electronics. So it's a bit harder to tell than if it were a side by side comparison.
Thanks for your help.
Follow Ups:
I would only add one thing PC123v, to ask each of the dealers if you could bring your integrated to listen to both the speakers. At least you would have a better idea of which one might be more appealing to you with a common basis. If you're spending from 3-6k on a speaker I can't imagine that it would be a problem.
I have been mulling whether to switch from my de capos to a more sensitive speaker like the Zu Soul as my 4 watt Decware Mini Torii is just a bit shy of volume when i need to rock out about once a month.
I love the de capo sound and hte cherry cabs look great in my 115 yo house. Thought about upgrading the woofers to the ones with the dispersion cones but $$$ is it worth it?
Judging by the responses you have received below I think it is incumbent that you listen first to both. Both are excellent speakers and do vocals extremely well and I totally agree with Morriscab's comments concerning the BE tweeter, it IS NOT bright, steely or edgy in any manner AND does open up the soundstage. Whether it might sound that way to someone else in another matter, only you can determine your threshold to what you might consider what it does or doesn't do right. I think it does a lot right and fell in love with it on first listen, YMMV.
Recently a friend brought over his Ref 3a L'Integrals to my place so we could compare the differences. What was most apparent, aside from an unmistakable house sound were two things, the DeCapos with the BE had a bigger soundstage and more extended top, and the L'Integrals with the larger cabinet offered greater weight to the overall sound which would be expected from a floorstander. The one I personally like and would like to compare directly to the DeCapo BE is the Episode with the Murata supertweeter. That one had one of the best top ends I've ever heard from a dome design, airy and so very natural. This was the first speaker I ever heard in the lineup after reading so many things about them over the years.
The L'integrales have great bass and weight for a speaker their size. Until I upgraded the MMCs to a Be tweeter I used to go back and forth between the two speakers. In the end, the MMCs were a bit more transparent and with the excellent Mirage BPS210 (bipolar beast) i had plenty of weight, so I chose the MMCs for the Be surgery.
I did not use the Capacitors recommended by Ref 3a though. I have some other very good ones that I used...probably doesn't make a huge difference but with only one cap in the circuit it surely does something.
I did upgrade my tweeters in the L'integrales to SEAS excel tweeters and that improved resolution and extended the top end slightly. I have some other good soft domes I might eventually play with though.
That said, my main speakers now are the totally awesome Odeon La Boheme full horn speakers (2 way with backloaded horn bass and wooden horn tweeter). The Ref 3as are great for smallish speakers but cannot compete with the Odeons...just a different weight class altogether.
My Grand Veenas have the Murata and the top end is superb. Very delicate and detailed, but never harsh or bright.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
pc
Take a look at the Wavetouch Grand Teton. Compact, but plays big for its size. 94 db efficient. I think the standard version comes in around 2K.... factory direct with a 30 day audition period. Baltic birch cabinets are another bonus here. Good luck in your search......Mick Wolfe
Out of the two brands I would probably opt for the Harbeth but the Super HL-5 model over some of the others. I have not been a fan of the character of Reference 3a models with the BE tweeters.
If you can another speaker you should consider is the Audio Note J/D for $3950 or the AN K/LX for $2700ish.
The J/D will give you a few advantages - one IMO it sounds better than any speaker I have heard from the two brands you're looking at. Second - it is easier to drive only needing 5 watts and playing to 25hz flat in room bass - so it is unlikely given your room that you would ever need a subwoofer. You can place them right up against the wall or in the corner (but I stress that this is not necessary) though it does provide more bass weight and sensitivity - but some find at the expense of spatial effects - nevertheless - they're room friendly enough to get very good results.
You can see the J/D speakers in action here
@RGA...and all....thank you for advice. I am leaning towards high efficiency speakers...bookshelves or small floorstanders. Do you have experience with medium range omegas? Would they be competitive with the harbeth a, AN or ref 3a I terms of vocals and big full non fatiguing sound I am after?
Thanks.
I dislike them because of the jagged roll-off at the high-end. Look for single drivers that are paired with a treated ribbon tweeter and connected to the single driver through a cross-over circuit.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Omega loudspeakers are single drivers if I remember - single drivers have some inherent advantages over multi-way drivers - midrange clarity and openness but usually at the expense of dynamics, bass and treble extension and smoothness and limited frequency response. You makes your trade-offs. To get around some, though not all, of the weak points is generally size - BIG single drivers and BIG panels at high dollars alleviate the weak spots by adding back treble and bass and a degree of dynamics. The bigger two ways retain most of the goodness of single drivers while alleviating the weak spots while not requiring as much money or as much space. And then the 3+ ways with still bigger cabinets often alleviate further the weak spots but also move further away from the single point in space strength. One of the reasons I like the AN J and E having had the former for a decade and the latter I bought last year is that they get as close to what I like about single drivers as a two way gets while providing full range enough sound such that I would not require a subwoofer while not taking up bags of space while also being highly efficient.Basically, you have to listen for yourself and play the music you listen to and determine if the single driver has enough drive and wollop to keep you happy in the long run.
I am generally a fan of full range or close to it loudspeakers that can play Beethoven to Eva Cassidy but can also play the likes of Noisia "Split the Atom" where I can feel the bass in my chest and a sense of in room pressure - and that includes it from trumpets and horns.
Not long ago I auditioned the above set-up with the pictured Empress 7 watt per channel 2A3 monoblock amps and their Jinro Sochu 211 power amp with heavy well recorded dubstep synth music. If you listen to this sort of thing (I respect that many people do not) for me the system has to do a highly competent job of it. Pin drop speed - treble out the ying yang, bass drive and hard impact without a hint of audible distortion of "doubling" and the speakers not requiring corners to do it.
Everything presents compromises - the J in this room don't possess the biggest scale or vertical image height of better speakers (or better versions of itself). Nor was the soundstage presented here as good as I've heard. Bottom line is you have to do the listening to all these things yourself. For every fanboy like me who says they're the bee's knee's you'll find someone else to dump on them. So the internet goes. But when I tell you I audition something I am now attempting to provide a picture of what I auditioned along with the dealer I auditioned them at. The Above photo taken at Elephant Holdings Wanchai Hong Kong. http://www.elephant.com.hk/products_list.php?nid=15
There are probably a dozen speakers that I could live with but because I own AN J/Spe speakers I basically compare everything I hear to that speaker (which I've had for 11 years and which is still selling and has been selling continuously for 23 years (so there are some other fanboys).
I personally hold sensitivity and ease of drive in high priority since I feel SE amplifiers whether it be the Solid State 20 watt Sugden A21a or any numerous 5-10 watt SET amplifiers as sounding the best. Even if you include the Nelson Pass First Watt SIT amps they too are low powered.
I have liked some single drivers from Teresonic but expensive. In HK I have enjoyed several. Still, if you listen to what I listen to they have trouble reproducing fuller range sound. But I like what they do very much.Omega's prices are certainly attractive, but you have to try them first cause bass is difficult to live without IMO and some of the 4 inch single drivers simply won't cut it.
Edit - the picture above was with the Quest 300B not the Empress - I did listen to the Empress as well which I prefer).
Edits: 04/14/15 04/14/15
@RGA and Everyone....Thank you so much for for all your help! I have narrowed my list down to the AN J and the HL5+. To my ears...both did well on female vocals however the AN J were driven by expensive...> 30k worth of electronics. My integrate is a modest Line Magnetics 216ia. Think it's a good match for either one of them? Thanks.
Did you listen to the Decapo or are you relying on other opinions? Just curious.
Both speakers sound really good - you simply won't go wrong with either one of them. The LM amps have balls. Line Magnetic is maybe the best Chinese tube amp maker going of the brands that are mainly advertised as Chinese brands - brands like Melody that are Australian but made in China is right there as well.But basically it comes entirely down to your ears your hearing of them on the music you play.
I have owned the J/Spe for 11 years so whatever I say here is biased. But basically - you have to weigh which one you like better. If you say to yourself "it's a draw" then you look at price and power handling.
The AN J is easier to drive - you can run a 5-10 watt 300b SET and play to very loud levels with very solid bass. The Harbeth is 85-86dB sensitive and may force you to use the UL mode of the LM where the AN J will let you use the IMO better Triode mode all the time. Also should you got to a SET you won't have to replace the AN J. But this is secondary issues to the actual sound.
I would suggest you try and use your amp with the speakers and play the hardest hitting pieces of music you have (that you like and actually listen to) and then see.
Preferably, you can get the dealers to let you take the speakers home for the weekend or something. Does not hurt to ask.
Edits: 04/18/15
to my Master Control MMCs was an enormous upgrade. It opened them up significantly over the stock tweeters. Now, granted the stock tweeters in my MMCs were Vifas and Ref 3a had moved on to Seas and then to Dyanvox tweeters since then.
I did hear a pair of the Royal Virtuosos and they would not likely benefit much from the Be upgrade (they had Seas tweeters) but who knows?
The Be has the extension of metal tweeters but with a softness that is close to a great soft dome tweeter. After having ribbons and electrostats and now horns for so long, soft domes sound terribly overdamped to my ears. The Be gets much closer to an ideal tweeter IMO.
I heard some upper middle AN E speakers the other day with a Meishu amp and CDP3.1/X (I think) cd player. The sound was a mid-bass heavy and muddy sounding. Not really high end even IMO...very disappointing.
I ask because I have an older model of the Reference 3a and was considering upgrading the tweeter to the BE. I had heard nothing but good things about it, but would be very interested in hearing what is the down-side from your perspective. Thank you.
I actually like the old MM De Capo model designed by the original designer Daniel Dehay. It had a warmer overall presentation and way back when it was the speaker that I was lusting after. I wound up buying the AN K/Spe over it in direct comparison but it wasn't a beating - it was a closer call than usual for me and I'd have been happy with either model. Note also that I liked Reference 3a even with some solid state amplifiers. I have heard Harbeth with the amplifiers above and Harbeth sounded very good with that same gear both at an audio show and demo. It was runner up for my favorite rooms at the show at CES a few years back.
I have now heard the Reference 3a line (the De Capos are at the left out of view of this photo) taken and auditioned with the same gear and it has been frankly disappointing. It's not like the old De Capos and while it may be more "hi-fi" because the tweeter I suppose is technically superior - the end result is a more detached, colder presentation to me - the floorstanders actually cam across as outright thin and bright. This same dealer carries Rosso Fiorintino loudspeakers which sounded vastly better and I'd never heard of that line of speakers until this. However I don't know their prices and could be much higher.
I remember on a Canadian forum a fellow who may have been a dealer or at least a passionate owner also felt that way about the pre - De Capo version over the De Capo i.
The BE drivers are impressive - but I guess that very impressiveness is what bothers me - I hear them doing their own thing. When I heard the BE version the first thing I said was - this is a metal tweeter.
Having said all that - you know very well that other posters around the net like them. But hey plenty of posters like ribbon panels and I don't get that either.
I'm sorry, Ref 3a looks like industrial madness now. What a shame. Who wants cement towers in their living room?
Perhaps you can get them in other colours - I heard the Grand Veena back in 2010 at CES and it was one of the better sounding rooms above - but it too has had the tweeter/supertweeter replaced by the BE.
Still sound quality over looks for me and I will try them a few more times. Like the KEF LS-50 which I felt STUNK on solid state amplification - it may just be a matter of finding the right SET for them to get them to be their best.
As an aside for the OP
But a similarly sensitive speaker that blew me away a little bit was the new Zu Audio Omen Def which is 100db+ efficient had pretty awesome bass depth and power and an attractive price and a really nice dark purple cabinet (how is that for luxurious royalty) - to be honest I have not liked Zu Audio much at all but the new one seems to have righted the treble issues (mostly) and with Melody's preamp into my 219IA used as a power amp it had really nice layered tone and big tight deep bass. Apparently it is also less money (and IMO vastly better) than the more expensive "Essence" model.
Err it may have been the Definition model but either way the results were very good. Easy to drive - lots of range, smooth but has giddy-up. and Zu's prices usually aren't nuts (though I don't know exactly how much they are).
....I wouldn't care for the new nextel finish either, but I love the cherry.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
I don't see any tubes in that picture. Maybe that is why they left you cold? I think unless the speakers are warm that system pictured could very easily sound the way you described.
FWIW, I have yet to hear a convincing AN demo...even with Jinro amp and upper range AN E speakers. I will be trying the Oto SE signature though to see how compatible it is with my horns...the fact that this model is using nice "C" core output transformers for a pretty reasonable price makes it somewhat intersting to me. I was going to try a Meishu Silver but from what I have read about it it seems to fall more in the "warm" camp.
Beautiful pic- RGA!
is that your listening room?
This is a dealer demo room in Hong Kong. The building has 21 floors about 18 of those has a dealer or two on each floor selling various systems so I can start on one floor and audition Kharma, MBL, Vivid Audio, Harbeth, ATC, Magnepan, Quad, Focal, Reference 3a, Legacy, B&W, McIntosh, Tannoy, Tidal, Quad, KingSound and on it goes. If I ever get some time I should pu the pics together - it's almost like a show report but it happens every day in HK.
Very Sweet- RGA.
Check out his equipment profile!
RGA is our leading AN proponent here. Search for "audio note" by him and you'll find thousands of posts. :)
Is that pre- "i"? I love them. That's the era you're talking about, right? Thanks.
I have Dehay era Ref 3as, Master Control MMC (predecessor of your Royal Masters) and L'integrale (same driver setup as your Royal Masters). I found the Be a big upgrade on my MMCs (I didn't mod the l'integrales yet). It opens up the soundstage considerably without adding any brightness. I come from many years with ribbons and electrostats so I found the speakers originally to sound a little bit too shut-in. The Be tweeters mostly fixed that without ruining the balance.
I owned two iterations of the Royal Masters and now own the de Capo i's. They all sound wonderfully musical to me, while also being fast, almost "electrostatic-like". I have only heard the BE versions under show conditions and they did not inspire, the tweeter definitely seeming to stand out to me. Now, at a show there are a lot of variables that could have contributed to that impression...
I do think the old school 3A designs are still great ones.
Yes - Daniel Dehay days La Suprema, Royal Virtuoso etc. It's not really the same sound anymore and I guess to me that's the issue - it's probably not so much that the new models aren't good it's more about expecting to hear one thing and then getting something completely different.
Here's a tidbit on Dehay and the original company just called 3A.
Magnepans are absolutely SUPERB at reproducing acoustic guitar, piano and
female vocals. SUPERB. The smaller one can be had for very reasonable
prices, and the bigger ones are not all that expensive either. Their
downside is the amount of amplifier power required.
Interesting query- pc123v.
I would be interested in reading about this.
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