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Hello.
The noob again! Just trying to learn more.
What speakers would you recommend to listen to classic rock and blues?
My logical assumption from reading on this site and others are that all speakers are not made equal, and some work better with classic, or soft acoustic music versus "loud" rock and roll or blues with electric guitars wailing....
Therefore i ask the question. Oh,by the way, my budget is about 1500 $ .
A music lover with limited means!
Thank you.
Follow Ups:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know... I'm late to the party. I see you bought some Polks. But, for future reference, try to find a pair of Rectilinear. The Guess Who "Live At The Paramount" sounded, like, totally awesome on them, dude. It was one of my early exposures to great rock on great rock speakers.
:)
The Cerwin Vega XLS-215.
Don't laugh! These were very well reviewed by Stereophile.
I found this review of their predecessors (CLS-215) online from SoundStage.
I have heard these speakers on a few occasions and they always impressed. If your into ZZ Top, Zep, Van Halen, Rush etc.... I doubt you could do better for the $$$$.
Good luck.
Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
If these are near you and you get them down a bit they can rock out very well.........and will always resell easily.
People may scoff at these but I sold the hell out of these back in those days. Also owned a pair for many years and regret letting them go. These could rock and roll.
Same with these at a much lower price. Also had these for many years.
430Cruz,
what brand/year/model are those speakers?
Thanks.
Rock-
which loudspeakers did you buy?
fantja(a) , I did listen to Klipsch Heresy from a local seller, and found a pair of Polk Audio SDA-1C at a local hifi used store,and , after listening to those, went with the Polk.
Got a hold of Polk and they send me information on upgrading crossover, and tweeters, which I am in the process of.
I liked the fact that the Polk were a little smoother than the Heresy, and when I play some mellow blues, it sounded better to my ear.
however, I did get the bug, started reading a lot on web sites about building your own speakers, and I think I am going to try that.
Thanks for asking.
You made an intelligent and well considered choice. Trust your ears. When someone designs a loudspeaker, there's hundreds of variables that mostly all interact. Throw in cost and it gets really complicated. The result is that a designer chooses a series of compromises that end up giving the speaker a characteristic sound, one that best meets his/her design goals plus those of the Suits selling speakers. You get a "house sound" in many companies that have stable sets of goals, like you can always tell it's a Stratocaster, yea?
There are some speakers that sound great with all kinds of music, at high and low levels. In my experience, these are mostly expensive. Occasionally a modest price design really gets it almost all right. Going back to about 1980, the Polk Model 10 was an example. I just hooked my friend up with a sweet pair for $50- an amazing value. I've heard the big Polk SDA's and would say they get excellent results on an increasing scale but still have the Polk house sound, which is pretty fine.
Glad to see that you found a pair of 1C so close and quick too!
Also glad to see Polk offering support still.
Did they have the umbilical cord for between left and right speakers?
Periodically I look at the Polk forum and have seen guys talking about upgrades and updates to the old classic line. I may have to get some updated tweeters and stuff from them while they have it. After your thread, it got me thinking about my pair of 1C that my father is using (barely as he's almost deaf now) and I offered him a replacement speaker for my old Polks.
His response was priceless! "After all the speakers you've had in your house over the last three decades and I finally get an upgrade?"
Top ones are the Polk Audio SDA-SRS, there was also a Gen 2 called the SRS 1.2
Bottom ones are the Polk Audio SDA-1C, there was another variant with tweeters side by side instead of over top each other. The side by side version never sounded right to me, blurred the sound but the over/under version with tweeters turned 90 degrees sounded much better. It gave it more of a line source like the big SRS models.
The link lists the models and if you dig around that site look for the technical explanation of how they work.
I gave my father the SDA-1C speakers back in '92-'93 and they are still playing well to this day. Every time I go there I turn them on for a listen and remind him that if he ever wants to get rid of them that I am first dibs on getting them back.
Both these speakers throw a huge sound stage that sounds great anywhere around the room BUT, when you sit in the sweet spot they do something that few other speakers will do.
And J. Hirsch sums it up well.
I'd imagine these would do the trick.
...and I play plenty of Rock and Blues through mine long term.
But I'd also recommend them for Jazz and Classical.
See ya. Dave
Go on ebay and find yourself a pair of Altec 9844 monitors. They are very high efficiency, and the pair I had for about a decade could part your hair with 10 watts of power. The retro gray paint looks cool too
If the speaker is a good speaker it will be a good speaker for rock and roll.
Believe it or not, audio equipment does not have taste and does not care what you put through it. And guitarists don't all play the same notes.
If a speaker does classical really well, it will do rock really well too. I've actually seen people ask if there was a speaker that was better for mid-tempo 80s rock as opposed to rock from the 1960s!
Cerwin Vega is the brand that I see trotted out the most on this topic. Actually they lack the impact and resolution to do rock, classical or jazz. They are simply loud and there is a lot more to rock than just loud. IOW don't make the mistake of assuming that a PA speaker is going to do the job better because bands use PA speakers (BTW I play in one of the louder bands in the Twin Cities). Bands use those speakers because they need volume and often don't have a lot of money for the PA. You won't need that volume in a home setting because the room is smaller. So go with quality.
Different speakers have different strengths and weaknesses but they all might be considered to be *good speakers*. Some speakers seem to make better classical speakers than they do rock speakers (thinking of Quad ESL versus Klipsch, etc...) and visa-versa, and part of the reason this might be true is because of what has been called "note shaping". Different good speakers deliver good sound in different ways. Though they all be "good"...I think it's possible that (in certain cases at least) the dispersion characteristics and micro-dynamic capabilities of a pair of speakers can combine in a way that seems to complement the reproduction of certain musical instruments and/or genres of music.
Edits: 05/02/15
So you would recommend the OP use a pair of LS3/5As in a large room for Black Sabbath? Good luck with that. Maybe as background music in a small room if you don't mind missing the low notes. Most people want loud volumes and good dynamics for rock.
I said nothing of the sort.
In a small room, near field, which is what the Rogers was designed for, it does quite well.
Most people want loud volumes and good dynamics for rock.
The same is true if you play classical. Generally classical music has larger dynamic excursions owing to the fact that there is less compression used as there is less expectation that it will be played in a car. Quite often the bass is deeper too.
In a larger room you need more efficiency. You also still need the resolution, which is not different if you play classical or rock.
Ralph,
Totally agree with your summation. I have always believed this. Even when I hear it about HT vs music reproduction. Any speaker that will play music well will be just as good with HT and vice-versa. Have experienced many times in my own home and those of others.
Best,
Dave
One of the first questions we asked customers was "What Kind of music do you like?" It was not necessarily a ploy to move them into a Advent, JBL or Bose. It was a conversation starter. Here is a typical sales conversation.
Customer "I'm looking for a new set of speakers"
Sales Guy "Great, What are you using now?"
C: Oh, I'm kind of embarrassed, it the Zenith Allegro system my folks got me for my 15th birthday.
SG: I see what you mean, Don't worry. Hey, What kind of music do you like?
C: All kinds, I guess, Foghat, Kansas, Elton John.
SG: Excellent, Been to any concert lately?
C: I took my girl friend to see Barry Manilow for her birthday. It was pretty cool.
SG: I bet. Let's go look as some speakers. You can use them with the Zenith - but maybe we can talk about a receiver and turntable later. The loudspeakers are the most important thing though, have you got a budget?
C: I can't spend too much, maybe $300, I'm trying to save up for a car, too.
SG: (As I enter the Bose Demo room) Have you Ever heard of Bose loudspeakers?
Epilog:
The guy walks out with Bose 301 and Receiver (JVC JR-200?) for $425+ Tax. Comes back 4 months later for a Garard zero tracking error turntable after selling the Allegro to his ex girlfriend.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
.
I would recommend some passive speakers from JBL Professional (or even Cinema)lines. Look at the low end extension in the specs to make sure they suit your purposes without subs.
A good speaker is a good speaker. For $1500 you can get the setup I use. And I listen a lot to Rock and Blues. Lately spinning and streaming Susan Tedeschi, Bonnie Raitt, Heart, Zeplin, Greatful Dead, Marshall Tucker, Stevie Ray Vaugh, at fairly loud levels.
MMG's @ $600, driven my a Crown power Amp like this one:Crown XLS1500 $400,
And maybe the JBL - LSR310 Subwoofer ($400)
The MMG's need that power and can handle it when you use an 80Hz HP crossover.
The beauty of a dipole is they throw more sound at you - image excellently and still have that full sound power sound field.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Rather than worrying about the genre you're planning on playing, it would be better to describe the environment where you're thinking of placing the speaker. That is, the general dimensions of the room, whether it is acoustically reflective or absorbent, and where you will be able to place the speakers.
That said, Harman has been doing a lot of research into designing speakers and has been bringing out some modestly priced ones that sound very good.
JE
...the point of owning a great audio system is to engage with great music. Not just one form of great music but music that , over the years, you discover from all genres.
Get a speaker that is good with everything. Otherwise you are locking yourself into who you are today with no chance for future growth.
I bothers me when people say "sounds great with vocals" or something similar. And that includes amps as well. I agree that your speakers should sound good with female classical vocals, acoustic guitar, piano concertos and Ozzy. To your taste of course.But if it's vintage rock you want these are the ones they used.
just my unimportant 2 cents
Edits: 04/09/15
...if it sounds great with live unamplified music - say acoustic, guitars, vocals, drums, or jazz - then it will sound just as good with rock.
Or any other music.
And it either faithfully reproduces the signal sent its way or it does not. I am always amused when I see folks recommend certain speakers for a given genre of music.
Once again, the speakers either faithfully reproduce the signal or they don't. The contents of the signal are irrelevant.
And, actually, this is true for all links in the audio reproduction chain regardless of the type of music being played...
-RW-
I tend to agree with you that this is the goal. What I find is that the compromises in the speaker/system dictate much of the discussion on what a given speaker is good at. A good single driver speaker has some advantages on small scale music with human voice - no crossovers and are supremely coherent - single drivers would include non hybrid panels.
Generally speaking the weakness is full range dynamics, bass prowess and treble extension. Big monstrosity speakers tend to do this well but move further away from sounding cohesive and while it can do large scale rock - it tends to do much worse on "girl at a piano" kind of music where you are largely focusing your ear on the vocal and not the bass guitar or drum set.
So I "get" why people say speaker X is better suited for one kind of music over others - ideally you would have a single point in space speaker (a single 1 inch driver) capable of 15-22khz producing 120db with zero audible distortion and perfect polar response, phase etc.
As someone who loves Piano and singers like Eva Cassidy, but also loves to put on AC/DC and the likes of Noisia, Tiesto, Armin Van Buuren, Nightwish, Taiko Drums, etc.
For me I want the system to play nuance well but get up and pound when required.
At $1500 it's difficult to have it all.
It's not a matter of playing the music - it's a matter of it pelting you in the chest at levels the artists intends - this kind of thing has a certain intensity and chest pounding desire that won't be met with the likes of the Totem Model One.
NO speakers are 100% accurate. In fact, they're the least accurate, most seriously flawed part of the reproduction chain (unless you count the original microphones, or use a turntable as primary source). Transducers of any sort introduce FAR more distortions than even merely adequate electronics.
So you choose the set of compromises you favor, which may in turn be strongly influenced by the kind of music you favor. The OP wants "rock" speakers -- dynamic, efficient speakers with lots of jump factor and snap and sizzle, even at the expense of compromised timbral accuracy.
Not the best sort of speakers for string quartets or small ensemble jazz, perhaps, but better suited to his needs than the sort of inefficient, prissy, constipated, overpriced "audiophile" speakers Sam Tellig and Corey Greenberg used to rail against.
the sort of inefficient, prissy, constipated, overpriced "audiophile" speakers Sam Tellig and Corey Greenberg used to rail against.
What brand of speakers are you refering to, and who are those fellows?
. . . were writers for Stereophile. They rarely named names of gear they didn't like, but expressed a strong preference for lively, dynamic sounding speakers over excessively "polite, refined" ones. The words I used, and you quoted, were all from actual comments posted by those critics about speakers heard at various hi-fi shows.
Given your original post, I think you should be looking in general for speakers with high rated sensitivity (90dB or better) and benign impedance (not getting much below 6 Ohms at any frequency). Those are the ones that will jump to life and rock out with modest amplification. Some brands mentioned that fit those criteria were JBL, Klipsch, and Cerwin Vega.
Amen to the JBL-Cerwin Vega part, although you're going to get a headache in 30-45 min. (I've owned both).
I remember Sam Tellig as someone who appreciated refined speakers that played acoustic music well. He's the reason I bought Harbeth 7ES3s--that story in Stereophile--very satisfied with those.
Nobody in Stereophile panned anything. (I know, I know, the idea was to point out the good stuff).
Logical assumption seems to me that I should look at Klipsch from the heritage line, but what models from the JBL line?
There's a guy there selling a pair of Klipsch RF-25's for $275, seems like a pretty nice price. Go to the Emotiva Lounge (Google it) and check the Emporium forum - the title is "A Few Speakers For Sale".
These speakers should pretty much rock your world...
-RW-
The easiest and quickest way to change the character of your system is to get new speakers.
It's a collection of compromises - and certain types of music are unforgiving of some sorts of flaws and not so others. There is no perfect speaker, and it is usually the largest source of distortion in a playback system.
============================
As audiophiles, we take what's obsolete, make it beautiful, and keep it forever.
Hey! I have a blog now: http://mancave-stereo.blogspot.com or "like" us at https://www.facebook.com/mancave.stereo
"And it either faithfully reproduces the signal sent its way or it does not."
Name one that does it all correctly please. Given the state of affairs that happens before it even gets to the speaker, that's another conundrum.
"I am always amused when I see folks recommend certain speakers for a given genre of music"
So why are there so many manufacturers then? And I am referring to the good guys not the bottom feeders. Because they all know not what they are doing and can not build a faithful transducer? No, because it has not been developed at this point in our lives so every (Respectable) speaker is an attempt to reach for perfection but ends up as "the best compromise" we can produce. So it boils down to compromises at a given price point for most people. This is where a speaker may excel in some areas and fall short in others giving itself a "voice". The OP is asking for our opinion on a voice that suits classic rock and blues. At $1500 and under there is a lot of compromise to be made and I don't mean that in a snarky way. I've listened to Usher S520s on up to Wilson GSs in my possession all on one very high resolution system and you know what? They all had a voice of their own, no two sounded the same ever.
So in my experience as a musician and an audiophile, voicing can play a key role to ones enjoyment of music. If you ask 100 people who is the best of "the three tenors" you will have votes for each one of them. You know why? Because each voice suits a listener in a unique way that is more pleasing to them. They're all tenors, they can all sing the same note but one will always prevail in your mind because of subtle or not so subtle differences. Same goes for instruments and the musician behind it.
You said above that,
"Once again, the speakers either faithfully reproduce the signal or they don't." (established they don't)
"The contents of the signal are irrelevant." (Au contraire)
I would dare you to tell a musician that the contents of the signal are irrelevant. So my Bach Stradivarius trumpet is a faithful reproducer of content and I will tell you that it sounds much better on big band, swing and jazz than it does on classical or symphonic. What the hell does that have to do with anything??? It's all about the contents of the signal that I am feeding it and the horns own subtleties coming together. It was designed for that type of playing. Is it not still a trumpet? Should it not play all trumpet parts well then?
Speakers, to me, are the same as instruments. Some will excel in certain genres more than others, all by design and choices made in the design. I think it more than fair to believe that speakers do the same. They are instruments at the end of a chain that have to resonate to create sound........some better suited for rock, some better suited for jazz etc, etc, etc.
430cruz, you said it well. I have to agree with you on the "sound".
I purchase season ticket at the Columbus symphonic orchestra , and I love going to the performances. But I think that unless you have all the elements , such as : perfectly acoustically set up listening room, excellent audio (expensive?) system,with all the "accoutrements" such as cable, power distributor, etc.. recorded music will never be as good as hearing a live orchestra in a concert hall. That is my opinion. But you can, for a fairly decent amount of money, have a system that will do a good job of playing rock and roll and blues, because only four or five instruments are having to be reproduced by the system.Is it because those songs are played with electric instruments?
Maybe i am totally wrong, and I might be "off key!" , but listening to Maria Callas live at La Scala, or watching Dudamel conduct a Bethoveen symphony cannot be reproduced.
In the culinary field, there is an "unsung!" theory that your mind , as you see the plate being presented to you, creates the gustatory scents and images of the tastes on the plate before you actually eat the food.Hence why so much emphasis is placed on presentation.
Could it be true for music, and that your mind would play the music a picosecond before you do actually hear it?
I apologize for digressing. Thank you all for your suggestions and teachings about speakers. MUCH OBLIGED.
Since rock music is always heard through sound reinforcement systems that have a definite personality, I would suggest there really is a sound to "live" rock music.
As for me, I prefer better. :)
If you're going 70's rock like Allman Brothers then a Dynaco A-25 type speaker. if you're going 90's and above like Rap and Stone Temple Pilots then a good solid monitor sub.
I wouldn't agree with any of those choices, regardless of era. I refer to the type of sound reinforcement speaker that you hear when attending a "live" rock concert.
While I have always preferred the "East Coast" neutral sound, that is not what you hear at concerts! You hear big bad horns that sound little like a Dynaco or Advent speaker. Or, a sub reinforced modern monitor. Unless that monitor is from Peavy, JBL, Klipsch, etc.
The speaker comes at the end of the chain, and is at the mercy of the room and upstream system. PRAT originates at the source. Then it is up to the downstream components and cables to preserve those qualities, and hand them off to the speaker. The speaker, in turn, better not screw things up.
-Lummy The Loch Monster
You've gotten a lot of good recommendations already, but might add CV to your "read up on it" list. High sensitivity, great dynamics, easy amplifier load, and voiced with your kind of music in mind. Some models have even received positive reviews from the "audiophile" press.
Yeah, many will criticize C-Vs for not being accurate or whatever, but to crank it loud I don't think much besides the old Klipsch designs like a Cornwall or La Scala (or the mighty Klipschorn).
You could also consider DIY designs.
An acquired taste for sure. Not the first stop for anyone wanting some amount of refinement to their sound.
reg in tas
...regards...tr
. . . kinda counters the stereotype of CV as noisy, brash, vulgar, unrefined, whatever, dunnit? RG found that with proper setup, listening a bit off-axis, the big CVs were balanced, detailed, and resolving. And of course plenty dynamic.
to those, if REG accepted them, they are likely contenders for the $1k bracket.
...regards...tr
The VS120s sound good too but watch for rotting foam.
I concur- Brian. CV is a rock n roll loudspeaker for sure.
For efficient speakers, consider Klipsch Cornwalls or Altec Lansing Model 19s. Used, if you're patient, you could snag a pair of either of these for $1,500. They're both very large systems with 15" woofers in vented cabinets and horn loaded drivers up top. Some prefer the Cornwall for its tweeter as a three-way, others like the Model 19, which is a two-way. I have owned both and consider the Model 19 to have a better midrange.
For less efficient speakers (be prepared to pony up some money for a 100-?000 watt power amp) the Thiel CS 3.6, which I have also owned, is a good candidate.
I haven't followed new speakers at that price too closely, but the mags have reviewed several models at that price that were well-regarded.
As much as I enjoy a good pair of Cornwalls, the Thiel trumps it very easily.
Poor comparison. Thiel/Cornwall is Apples/Oranges. It's more a matter of taste.
No. It is about the faithful reproduction of music.
Neither speaker is perfect or as a friend of mine wrote an article called "color Me Perfect'. By the way I personally would prefer the Thiels by a large margin but other listeners value speaker characteristics differently than I or you do and lots of them would pick the Klipschs especially for rock.
You could add a second sub and be under $1500.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Watch CL. $1,500 would be the highest price point.
CWII, ForteI, etc.
I prefer the original Forte over the Cornwall II, but you need a bigger amp.
If you've never heard of these they might be worth a look, considering your genre preferences listed.
I've never heard them but read a lot about them and I am close to pulling the trigger on a pair for sale near me. Check out some of their reviews and see if they are described to your liking.
Over on Audiogon there are (2) different sellers asking $2400 & $2500 per pair, respectively. This is a Steal! for such an outstanding loudspeaker.
Hands-down , THIEL CS 2.4 -these speakers do everything right!
I think you would like these.
Nt
And if the efficiency is correctly stated (98 db 1 watt at 1 meter), these bad boyz will play damn loud with a 25 watts/channel tube amp. I shudder to think what they'd do with a 500 watts/ch. sand amp....
-RW-
I think they'd be a good buy for the OP if he could get them for his budget price, I have to disagree about using them with a modest tube amp though, three large woofers per side are not going to get the current they need for good bass definition.
A solid state amp(s) that can double its 8 ohm power into 4 ohms would be awesome with these speakers if one doesn't mind listening to solid state amps.
VTL offers a 'system matching' guide that helps those who want great bass from tubes.
Regards, Craig
Question: would my amps be able to power these:Sony TA-55ES?
Keep in mind that these speakers will provide 98 db SPL with only 1 watt input. Every doubling of power will net you an additional 3 db of SPL.Watts SPL (db)
1 98 (Wow, that's pretty loud!)
2 101 (Your wife just screamed "Turn it down!!"
4 104
8 107 (The dog has left to live with your neighbors)
16 110 (Most folks would leave the room because it's too f'in LOUD!)
32 113 (The cops are at your front door, guns drawn)
64 116
128 119
256 122 (The cops said "Fuck this, we're outta here!" and your ears are starting to bleed)
-RW-
Edits: 04/08/15 04/08/15 04/08/15 04/08/15
... that you would want to keep it below a watt to preserve your hearing ...
============================
As audiophiles, we take what's obsolete, make it beautiful, and keep it forever.
Hey! I have a blog now: http://mancave-stereo.blogspot.com or "like" us at https://www.facebook.com/mancave.stereo
Yep, for all but unsafe listening levels, you'd be good to go.
Pioneer HPM 100s. $500 used
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