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Hi, a lot of Stereophile writers praise the Devore Orangutan. This is the speaker ..I wish for, not Magico or Wilsons or Rockports. It has a beautiful wood finish and every thing looks class. It somehow reminds me of a Dynaco A-35 with the tweeter in a straiter alignment with the woofer,although in a much larger beautiful enclosure. Whats been bugging me all night is this question...If this speaker wich can go pretty flat to 25 hz has to play a note for a say contra bass or pipe organ and at the same time has to replicate a cello or something (mid bass), how does the woofer do this if it's exurtion is already pumping out a 25hz tone? I think a long time ago Frank VanAlStine called this TID...Transient Intermodulation Distortion. How does the Orangutan defeat this? Been out tonight so be easy on me..love you guys,speakers and those Orangatuns....Mark Korda
Follow Ups:
I've heard the 0/96 in three different rooms all with excellent shindo/line magnetic gear and the bass has been too thick and slow in every room. In each room I had the opportunity to spend at least 30 mins listening.
Edits: 02/24/15
I'm listening to: Club de Sol by David Chesky
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Depends on what the drivers and crossover parts cost to some extent.
I know that some brands of drivers, Vitavox for example, are EXTREMELY expenive, and you won't find a speaker with their drivers for under $20K...even if it is a simple two-way design.
"WTF, it's just a big old-fashioned box!" I've never heard them so I can't say how much they're worth.
Who knows? Maybe they cost a bit more because they give their workers decent wages and a few benefits?
No doubt there is price bias out there where people see a high price and assume it must be better. But of course that isn't the only bias.
People see a cheaper speaker that say has 4 more drivers (with an advertised expensive jewel - say diamond or something unusual say beryllium or ribbon or electrostatic - and see more weight or bigger (bigger must be better right) etc and assume that it must have more "value" or must "sound better" by virtue of all the added drivers.
All of the biases would likely lead people AWAY from the likes of the Orangutan or the ANs. They don't look as nice or have exotic technology or drivers to hang their hat on. The ONLY way those speakers will compete is when you A/B them against the speakers using the sexy in fashion drivers, ribbon, AMT, Diamond, Beryllium, in sleek slim baffle molded snail shaped designs. On looks and sophisticated design, the bias goes decidedly against speakers that look like AN E and DeVores. And those others cost just as much money.
The AN E is like a sexy bikini - You may pay more money for less materials but you certainly get more in the end.
Very funny, I like that!
Or perhaps they're just greedy?
I've often wondered just how many people have purchased an audio component just because they believed; "At that price it MUST sound great!"
I'm listening to: A Paul Simon Songbook by Bill Cunliffe & Friends
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
It's not like a speaker with a 5" cone that is down 3db at 60 hz isn't pumping at 25hz. You can't hear it but the movement is there.
Imagine how boring the internet would be if folks were as civil here as they are in person.
"If this speaker wich can go pretty flat to 25 hz has to play a note for a say contra bass or pipe organ and at the same time has to replicate a cello or something (mid bass), how does the woofer do this if it's exursion is already pumping out a 25hz tone?"
The same way your eardrum responds to the wavefront. Superposition of signals doesn't cause distortion - nonlinearity causes distortion.
As an owner of the AN E and AN J speakers that are similar in respects to the Orangutan that you mention it comes down to making choices of what you can and can't live without. A single driver has limitations as you would expect t. Once you go two way you reduce ultimate coherence because two drivers are not as seamless as one. You gain dynamics, bass, treble extension, volume level, and a denser quality usually. Go to 3,4,5+ way and you should gain even more while losing more coherence along the way. But playing BIG music at higher levels the big speakers have a better chance of doing it better. For me they usually all fall down doing Eva Cassidy playing guitar. Since the bulk of music is jazz ensembles and singer at piano I would take speakers like the orangutans. They do big music better than big speakers do small music IMO.
Coherence??? one of the most coherent speaker I ever heard are the Vivid Giya's, yet they are 4 ways?
Just listen to piano music on them!!! amazing!!
Cross over design is obviously very important and the lack of a big front flat surface can only be a negative.
I've auditioned a few speakers from Vivid Audio. I always listen to piano music - I start with vocals and piano. And my fellow dagogo reviewer reviewed Ed Momkus bought the $58,000 Giya G1. Exceptions perhaps but in my auditions with models in the same price vicinity - the Devore, ANs, Trenner and Freidle Ra Box I find sound better.Ultimately, what I have heard from them hasn't struck the emotional chord with me and hasn't given me the goose-bump factor that I would want for the coin being asked. I like the looks, also liked the looks when B&W did it. And the Model Nautilus also didn't move me. Probably why there are so many different speaker camps.
Edits: 10/04/14
I always found loudspeakers with big flat front panels a little colored
or should I say uneven in the mids. I searched for years for the (to me)
perfect speakers and finally bought the Giya's 2 and at last I am in audio heaven. I never heard Orangutans'
But I think that I would find it difficult to go back to "box" loudspeakers, and luckily for me living in South Africa where the Giya's are made the pricing is much more attractive, due to the fact that there
is no freight or duties.
The Giyas are very good and it is one of the few multi-driver speakers that sounds relatively coherent. That said it is not the same degree of coherence as the best single driver, electrostat, or two-way designs I have heard. It has other advantages but a true time coherent speaker is more effortlessly natural sounding, IMO.
I'm listening to: Club de Sol by David Chesky
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
The beauty of the Giyas with the narrow baffle (and the dome midrange)
is that they disappear completely I am not aware of listening to loudspeakers, which is my problem with most box loudspeakers you are always aware of them. The Giyas have very little character of their own.
Single drivers and electrostatics have other problems which to my ears are much are bigger compromises. But then again we all look for different qualities. I've heard many loudspeakers having worked in a high end audio shop and the Giyas are an excellent compromise.
Another speaker that I think is an excellent coherent source is the Thiel CS3.7. It is a point source from 300-Hz up, and it is supposedly linear phase to ±10-degrees. I've owned them two years and they are the most uncolored, neutral speakers I've ever owned. Every time I listen I am impressed with their natural sound quality, and this is after two years of nearly daily listening. I basically can't tolerate other speakers so I use them for TV and DVD movies, too. I'm hoping I don't wear them out prematurely. ;-)
Best regards,
John Elison
.....
I have a hard time believing that a 10" 2-way with a 1" tweeter can provide a reasonably uniform off-axis (say, 30 degrees) output. This resurrects the "single chair" and "bad ambient sound" issues of yester-year.:)
Edits: 10/06/14
I assume you are talking about the Orangutan speakers. Have you ever heard them? I heard them at a show and I thought they were seriously colored and boxy. Perhaps I wasn't sitting in the sweet spot, but I didn't care for them.
Best regards,
John Elison
Actually, I was talking about the OrangeTang.
(Sorry... lost you for a second there, I moved off-axis.)
;)
Didn't you mean to say "... the lack of a big front flat surface can only be a *positive*." ? I'm not saying I agree but I wonder if this is a typo in your post...
Sorry my mistake, the big flat surface in the front can only be a negative. It is a problem with lots of box speakers.
So what you are saying is that all the speaker designers like Peter Snell and others are all wrong but YOU know better? Everyone is entitled to their opinon however uneducated......
There are a lot of people who are swearing by speakers like this and those from Audio Note that use a similar principle. The old Snells that the ANs derive from still have a following today.
I could argue that ANY enclosure is a negative and at least in some ways I would be right. A good full range electrostatic speaker or a good two-way ribbon speaker will sound at least if not more conherent than the Giyas (I have heard at length all but the smallest newest one) with at least as high resolution but perhaps only lacking ultimate power. Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing Giyas...they are very good and one of the most successful multi-way speakers I have heard (using drivers of all the same materials helps this a lot) but they are not time coherent and this can be heard with the right electronics and source material.
I have heard several horn speaker designs that I would choose over Giyas because they have something that neither the Giyas nor my electrostats and ribbons of the past had...dynamic jump factor that gets one closer to a "live" experience.
Even though I think my current Reference 3a Master Control MMC with Be tweeters are great (they truly disappear despite having a wide(ish) front baffle) and have good sensitivity (92db 8ohm), they still fall behind the better horns in liveness.
I haven't heard these Devore speakers but I would guess they have a smooth powerful sound that is somewhat colored compared to something like the Vivids but with great dynamics (not as much as a good horn though) and excellent overall coherence (simple 2-way). If the coloration doesn't bother then the resolution is likely to be good as well...if not electrostatic like.
I once heard a pair of JBL Olympus speakers, which are broad and short. The bass is reflex the mids and highs were horn I believe. One first listen they sounded horribly colored but after about 30 minutes you sort of forgot the coloration and realized that there was some superb dynamic expression and high resolution. I couldn't live with them overall but one could largely ignore the coloration.
Horns have always been problematic for me, yes they can sound amazing and dynamic but in general you have to select your source material carefully.
The beauty of the Vivid's is that they sound good on everything.
Every time I play a recording I did not hear before I am amazed.
They are source friendly and perfect for a music lovers.
Did you hear the recent Giya's versions with the new crossover??
the 2 way vivid are on my list of must listen. Ill try to ahve a audition and compare them with AN J
I think that it was John Marks from Stereophile that said on this forum
that these Oval Vivid speakers where the most coherent speakers he heard.
I don't know for sure but since I heard them again this year I would guess so. Dont get me wrong, I think the Vivids are beating most conventional speakers out there in that class like YG, Magico, Wilson, Kharma etc. I just simply was much much much more impressed with the horn systems I have heard recently...like the designers really got it together. They just sound more like a live event to me and I come from a long line of planar speakers where transparency and coloration are much lower than with most speakers. I am very sensitive to it so and used to hate a lot of the horns I heard as a result.
Listen to Odeon, Living Voice, Acapella and some others and you start to wonder how dynamic speakers ever took hold. I just got (another) pair of Odeons (I had some small ones in the past and liked very much what they did). Big ones that are a fully horn loaded 2-way. 98db and VERY coherent sounding. A friend of mine just picked up a pair of Living Voice Air Scouts (105db!) but I haven't heard them yet...very curious.
The new crossover ads 1.5 db efficiency, so on the leaflet it says that the 2's are 91 db's which I personally do not believe as my previous speakers where 91 db's and according to my amp I need to ad 4db to get to the same volume level.
The only horn speakers I am very familiar with are the Italian made Zingali's range which look beautiful and did sound excellent on some music but too uneven to live with them. We kept them in the shop where I worked thus know them very well. I also built a pair using Lowther drivers many years ago, but again the sound quality was too erratic.
Oh I am also familiar with the Rethm but again not for me.
So my experience is limited I never heard a horn design I could live with.
There are negatives and positives to every design being used today. What matters is how effectively the different elements of a design work together to create a unified design statement.It could be that some designs are easier to implement than others are, but what matters most is how successful the implementation is. The Giya design seems to be a very successful one but it might be assumed that more than the usual amount of time and resources have gone into making sure that every aspect of it's design functions as a harmonious, wholistic system.
Edits: 10/05/14 10/05/14 10/05/14
Hi,You guys are the best! I posed a question and I got a education from people in the know...thanks for all the help from you all. Devore never really shows the horn loading of their flag ship, but when sub-woofers came out I noticed 2 way speaker systems with 10 inch woofers crossed to a tweeter went the way of the dinosaur and 6.5 inch woofers seemed to rule for the mid range fans. I've never heard the Orangutan, but will always wonder how it works to bring such raves....thanks...Mark Korda
That's a fantastic speaker!
But the O/96 is really meant for low powered tube amps (especially SETs) - but not so good with solid state, The O/93 is less expensive and sounds really good with both tube and solid state, though not quite efficient enough for a SET.
Think about your system before plunking down hard earned ones, and once you craft one, grab it and don't look back! :-)
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Probably of greater potential for the woofer of every 2 way, but still all drivers are producing multiple fundamentals at the same time for complex music.
Hard to believe! A simple cone doing all this. And some cones doing it better than other cones. In a fraction of a second, in a time and phase aligned manner too. So the cone is the star, not any fancy cabinet or shape or size or filling. Who figured first a cone could do all this?
Cheers
Bill
I don't think this is called transient intermodulation distortion. I think it would be regular intermodulation distortion because the 25-Hz organ tone is sustained -- not transient. If the same transducer is reproducing both frequencies and the lower 25-Hz frequency requires wide excursions, it will undoubtedly modulate higher frequencies. What makes you think the Devore Orangutan defeats this phenomenon?
How often do you listen to this type of music? 25-Hz is awfully low and will only be produced by pipe organs or side effects like freight trains, cannons and airplanes. The lowest note on a string bass is 42-Hz, depending on tuning.
Best regards,
John Elison
Paul Klipsch spoke about this because horn loaded speakers have very small excursion. He called it FM as in frequency modulation distortion and compared it to the change in sound of a train whistle as the train 1st comes closer to you and then goes away.
Yes, intermodulation distortion is the same as frequency modulation distortion. Another name is Doppler distortion.
I met Paul Klipsch in Kaiserslautern, Germany not too long after he installed an anechoic chamber at his speaker factory. I asked him what he thought of Bose speakers and he got very excited because he had just measured them. He grabbed his binder of test reports and showed me the test results of the Bose 901 speaker, which he said was the only speaker he had tested that could produce over 100% intermodulation distortion. He measured a 10-kHz tone modulated by a 100-Hz tone with just the right amplitude but still within the speaker's power handling capability that produced 125% intermodulation distortion. He loved to show people those test results.
That level of intermodulation is not possible with ordinary speakers that contain both woofers and tweeters. The Bose 901 used nine 4-inch drivers to reproduce the entire frequency spectrum. In fact, each of the nine drivers was designed to handle all audio frequencies equally so that a long excursion 100-Hz test tone could easily modulate a low volume 10-KHz test tone to the point of producing 125% intermodulation distortion.
Best regards,
John Elison
But Bose doesn't matter. It's a lousy design that doesn't even do what it claims properly(ratio of direct/reflected sound) and as Gordon Holt wrote it's frequency response is a comb filter. But what was brilliant was the sales job Amar and his cohorts did using pseudo science with the most minimal hint of truth behind it.
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