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hi everyone
Ive just sold my ref3a decapo be and im looking for a replacement.
I cannot listen either of those two speakers so I have to go with people opinions.
I seem to feel from the user comment that both harbeth and AN share some common grounds like musicality, smoothness of sound, excellent midrange and non fatiguing sound.
Thjose attributes are really important for me.
What im more concern is how much resolution are those two speakers.
I listen mainly to electronica, jazz and rock.
Never past 95 db, my room is 11x 10 so real small but I have huge bass traps that definitely cleans up any boomyness, even from 12 inch woofers.
so, anyone heard both speakers and can comment?
My listening chair is 7 feet away from the speakers...
Follow Ups:
Finally bought a AN-J Lx. Its a 2007 model!
CAnt wait to hear them!
Congrats- Please let me know how they work out for you.
seems I go back to exactly those two brand of speakers: harbeth Shl5 or the audio note an E/K or J.Theres no way for me to audition harbeth as there s no harbeth dealer in the region of montreal.
I will listen to audio note speakers within a month though as theres a dealer in reasonable driving distance! Problem is that I will never be able to compare with harbeth.
Edits: 09/17/14
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/builtown.htm
Pick one of these systems.. and DO go there to audition ..you have an Airport near your home?? Strikingly spectacular sounds.
But Only a Fool would buy anything sight unheard!
I have heard most of the Reference 3a line back in the day and I have heard several models of the current line with the Be tweeters, I have heard much of the Harbeth line (though not the newest ones) and the AN line largely from top to bottom.
What I like about this thread is that Reference 3a more than 10 years ago was my front running speakers that I was raving about. It's also interesting that Soundhounds in Victoria, my dealer, has carried all three lines and also carries Devore.
Realize that what people say about these speakers are generally based on mixed level experiences. A person owns speaker A, but heard speaker B at an audio show, or speaker C at a buddies house, and the person may have a huge bias against the owner of speaker B because they got into arguments with said owner or whatever.
The bottom line is this - listen and decide for yourself. I have news for you - none of these speakers is perfect. They will all do things, bring their own idiosyncrasies to the table and you decide which weakness you can live with.
I have two front runners for my next speaker after hearing all three lines in HK and the top model from Reference 3a with the BE tweeter and the Harbeth M40 - my next speaker will likely be either one of two (at least as it sits right now). The Audio Note E/Spx HE Alnico (2013 product of the year in Asia) and the AN K/Spe which I used to own in 2004.
Sound quality is a big factor but it's not the only factor. The AN's can be placed near wall but it isn't a must. Often they sound better away from the walls - depends on the room. The Audio Note Dealer in Hong Kong positions the speakers well away from the walls due to the design of the room. This is NOT ideal as owners, the manufacturer and dealers will claim but it's also by far the biggest AN dealer in the world in terms of sales. So being in corners is hardly critical. Ditto the J and K or AX Two.
Further you have to make apples to apples comparisons. The E should be treated as a full range floorstanding speaker that sits on stands and should be compared to floorstanders like the Grand Veena Be. I would say the J should also be compared to speakers like the Grand Veena Be.
For "regular" standmounts the AN K is the speaker to be compared. I wound up buying the AN K over the DeCapo and DeCapo i. I have heard the new Be version but I like the new K/LX and K/Spe more - so little has changed in 10 years. And all are based on free standing position auditions.
My only real issue with Harbeth is the price - cause I like their sound. But I have trouble when I audition the AN E/LX or J/Spe at $7k and $5k and compare the sound to the $14kish Harbeth M40. I'm not convinced the latter sounds better and it costs more than double. But I like their sound but for the difference a lot of money can go to amps/sources etc.
IMO, they are superior to what you are looking to "upgrade" to.
They have the aliveness of the AN speakers but with less coloration and are more alive sounding than what I have heard from Harbeth (I haven't heard the exact model you are considering but their bigger, dearer models).
I have old Ref 3a Master Control MMC speakers that I upgrade with the Be tweeter and they get close in transparency to my old electrostats and ribbon speakers...haven't heard many other box speakers that can do that.
I would only upgrade them for some kind of horn system because they are better than other monitors I have heard.
If jasonpatrickbrowne does not state in what sense 3A-s were deficient and what he is trying to accomplish, discussion is meaningless.
Particularly in light of question for two completely different sounding speakers that require completely different amplification.
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
I really liked the ref 3a decapo, but I'm new into the speaker audiophile world so want to try difference reknown speakers to find what I like and dislike.Who knows, maybe at the end, ill go back to the decapo, but right now, I want to listen to a lot of speakers.
My dad used to have tannoy red 15 DC speakers and wilson audio cubs, I want to find a speaker that is as good as those two, or similar. The decapo didnt really givemegoosebump, while tannoy did definitely.
Edits: 08/18/14
What kind of amp were you using on your Ref3a DeCapos? If it wasn't tube or even SET then you were missing a lot of their potential.
There is very nice synergy between the two.
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
Me too but I suppose not everyone has the same tastes we do, heh?
Yeah you know I came from many years of boxless speakers (planars, stats, ribbons) and the Ref 3as are probably the closest to that kind of sound I have heard from a "conventional" box.
Now mine came originally with normal Vifa softdomes and the sound was smooth, musical, relatively dynamic and pretty transparent but it was missing that something extra on top that I was getting with my planars. Going to the Be tweeters removed layers and made everything more open, transparent and free from the speakers.
I also have Reference 3a L'Integrales and they are also pretty special. I have replaced the tweeters in these with other softdomes but it doesn't compare with what the Be tweeters bring. The bass and imaging though of the L'integrales is actually better than the monitors (especially the bass, which is deep and powerful). I might upgrade to Be for the L'intgrales as well because that top end sparkle is still missing with the better softdome.
I have heard pretty high up models in the Audio Note speaker line but I hear them as distinctly colored by comparison. They are compelling music makers but no more than the Ref 3as. Harbeth's sound comparatively dead to me.
I steered my friend unto Grand Veena with Murata supertweeter for the wrong reasons. He wanted tube friendly speaker recommendation and I just glimpsed over that "planar like quality " which is not a quite desirable thing in my book.3A speakers lack natural tonal color and often can sound thin and cold and absent. Compared to Audio Note or vintage drivers based speakers they sound almost synthetic. Listening to 3A speakers is like having sex with plastic doll. Recommended for highly evolved Germanic listeners :)
lol, yeah, I really didnt love the ref 3a decapo, hyper detailed and amazing soundstage, but really thin and a bit bright.
Anyways, this thread could close, Ive already purchased the AN J Lx. will report once Ive listen to them!
excited like a kid at christmas really and hope the AN J will be ``it`` for a good while.
... how different people's impressions are of the same speakers!I've heard Ref 3A speakers variously described as "warm", "cold", "natural" sounding, "plastic" sounding, etc...
I've never heard a pair, but I guess I'll have to now...
Edits: 10/02/14
I'm not familiar with the Audio Notes but I agree concerning the Harbeth's at least compared to the lively breathing presentation of the DeCapo BE. Interesting you own the L'Integrals, I have a good buddy that recently purchased a used pair. He is struggling with them at the moment but only because he really doesn't have the system set-up ideal to this design. We both hear the great potential however particularly when I brought my Berning zh270 running through his Creek Destiny Integrated. The L'Integrals definitely have a fullness and greater weight in the low mids upper bass region that I don't hear with the DeCapos and wouldn't expect to in a speaker their size. The house sound is there however and I'm very much looking forward to hearing them in my space next week in a system originally designed around a tube loving speaker and fine tuned around the DeCapo's.
I was going back and forth between the L'integrales and the Master Control MMCs quite a lot...until I put the Be tweeters in the MMCs. Since then I have hardly hooked up the L'integrales. I am thinking of selling them now as I am very happy with the monitors + a really good Mirage BPSS210 servo sub. Plenty tight accurate deep bass that way.
i have heard the Harbeth's at shows (Rocky Mountain), used to own the de Capo's (in their i iteration) and am also familiar with the E's.
First the easy part- don't purchase E's. Your room is way to small. I don't care how many bass traps you have the bass will be completely overwhelming especially if you place the speakers in the corners. Just don't do it. I have J's in a larger room with GIK Monster Bass Traps in each corner plus more at other junction points in my room- the J's fill my 2 x 14 room.
The finest description of the differences between Harbeth, Audio Note and Spendor speakers comes from Bob Neill over at Amherst Audio. His reviews are on the web and are from his days before he became a dealer. They are a great resource.
My opinion is that the Audio note speakers make things sound beautiful. Delicate, nuanced, and able to communicate emotion. They are not detail or resolution monsters. Pair them with low power single ended triode or pentode amps and you will be happy.
The Harbeth speakers had more detail- unquestioned. But I didn't care. I don't need detail I want a feeling. I also found the Harbeth's to be overly warm in the midrange. There was a aftertaste the speakers left in the lower midrange that colored everything they played. Still they had a higher degree of overall resolution.
For your music tastes I would really recommend the Audio Note Soro or P2se amps.
I have heard an OTO SE Signature teamed up with AN-J speakers in a small room and the sound was excellent. The SE Sig model has double C-Core OPTs and the P1SE may also have a signature model.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Audio note is one of the worst speakers I have heard in my life. Harbeth all the way!
I have to agree with that assessment, everytime I heard them they were quite awful, very unbalanced and colored. Now I have not heard them in very controlled conditions so I'll reserve judgement considering many people seem to like them, but I certainly wasn't impressed. It was the aural equivalent of looking at something through a magnifier, and moving it at the same time.
Edits: 08/18/14
hi
where did you hear a pair?
I have talked to two guys who went from ahrbeth shl5 to audio note and both told me they prefer audio note to harbeth
what is your experience?
Like any loudspeaker - any given set-up with any given amp in any given room can make otherwise good speakers sound poor. And some speakers get more credit than that may otherwise deserve when all the stars align. I've heard them sound world class to excellent to merely good and not so good to pretty poor.Audio Note is one of the few if only makers that at audio shows play music regardless of recording quality - they don't bring 12 CDs or LPs that are the best of the best recording quality - they will play 1920 mono LPs and if you happen to walk in in such a demo versus the guy down the hall playing Krall Live in Paris on repeat all day you might have an opinion on soundstage etc but your opinion would be about as useful as an empty toilet paper roll.
Bottom line you have to listen to the speakers, any speakers, reasonably well set up playing the kinds of music you play.
People can blather on about accuracy or distortion all they wish or whether it sounds warm or neutral but you have to buy something that pleases you (and that extends to the looks etc as well).
The AN E, J and K have been selling for over 30 years in largely continuous form since Snell came out with the original Snell Type E, Type J and Type K. The box designs go back to acousticians and speaker design expert L.L. Beranek who designed them in 1940.
Harbeth is a fine speaker maker that has been around for decades and shares a rich musicality and high involvement factor.
I find the AN's offer significantly better value for the dollar for various reasons but that's another issue.
Edits: 08/18/14
I owned the HL5 30th anniversary speaker. It was pleasant enough, but rather dull, even fronted by Naim. Buttoned down as Bob Neil would say. I had the Spendoer sp 1/2e's just before the Harbeth and found them much more involving, even though they are quite similar designs in many respects. I liked the Meadowlark Shearwater (hotrod version) perhaps better than either the Spendor or the Harbeth, although that Spendor was very nice. Taste obviously differ, which is great.
I've never heard AN speakers, though I always wanted to. If Bob Neil is right the AN's are an evolved form of the BBC sound, with more clarity and 'jump'...
Near-wall placement is almost a necessity in smaller rooms like yours. Find out which speakers are designed for near-wall placement in a small room, buy them.
Sjöfn ( the Clue ) or Guru Juniors ...
Almost any quality mini will sound good in any size room when they are pulled away from the walls. The OP has bass traps, however, and this suggests he is need of some low frequencies that minis can't achieve (but those you mentioned do give the impression of lower bass than they actually can reproduce).
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
The Sjofn and Guru speakers are designed to go below 40 hz. if they are set up properly. Why do think that they'd "give the impression of lower bass than they actually can reproduce"?
I'v heard both, and i found it amazing that they could sound so good at the low end in view of the volume inside the cabinets. I think the "setup" is the key.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
You seem to be saying that some speakers achieve deep bass extension primarily through boundary reinforcement, rather than driver/cabinet dimensions.
If so, I agree.
And some use both. Another way is to add a hump in the bass.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
Okay, im pretty set on AN J
I have huge floor to ceiling 14 inch bass traps, so the bass is well controlled, but the AN E seems too big anyway
I will go with AN J
Anyone has a pair to sell me :)
..., but no AN Js. Too bad...However, you might try contacting asylum inmate "RGA". Look him up in the member's directory, he's "Nuts for Audio Note" and he always seems to know when there's a deal floating around.
Edits: 08/17/14
I've tried my SHL5s in my 10 x 11 back room, and they were way too boomy. The Compact 7s are perfect in there, though. You may want to consider those.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
But as far as I know, it has been shown only at the recent Capitol Audio Fair.
Stereophile's Herb Reichert said of the sound in that room:
"This was a made-in-paradise combination. To imagine what I heard think opposites: Extremely smooth yet extremely textured; extremely subtle yet extremely dynamic."
I was not there. However, the US importer Walter Swanbon is very impressed by the new version.
ATB,
JM
The AN and Harbeths represent two quite different approaches and would not be equally suited to any given amplification set up and, perhaps, source equipment. So it may help inmates answer your question if you give some idea of the rest of your system.
Yes, I have. But the AN speakers don't sound at all like Harbeth's. Basically, AN speakers are "romantic" and engaging, while the Harbeths aim more at a neutral, realistic presentation. They are all fine speakers in the right room and system, with AN speakers sounding best in an all AN-SET system, while Harbeths are more at home with more neutral amplification and more amenable to mixing matching.
To understand the differences, write to Bob Neill at Amherst Audio (on the net), who has experience with both. It is good that you have eliminated your resonant frequencies because the AN-J and K speakers go very low compared to the Harbeth 5. Still, they may be too much for your room to handle. Talk with Bob.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
All three great speakers. If you can place them in the corners get the Audio Note Es, a no brainer to me but if you can't then I would go with the Harbeths, but I hope you can get them in the corners, the Es are incredible. The Js are great too, but not quiet the bass and do not load the rooms in the same way the Es do.
Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
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