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it's virtually impossible to find acoustic suspension speakers these days. i became an audiphile ONLY when a friend's $120 infinity 4 1/2" minis with the polycell tweeters circa 1985 amazed me with their imaging and freedom from bass distortion even if they were rolled off. i'd listened to a bunch of speakers at 3 different shops before that and just was never impressed until i heard little woofers thump with speed.
my last pair of speakers were the mostly nice sounding energy RC-10s. they have tons of resolution and speed and nice imaging with aluminum domes that don't have any "ping", but like 2 of the other two acoustic suspension speakers i've owned, suffered from scrawny cabinets that resonate. the RC-10s are actually ported, but i bought them, like my former mission M-71s, came with foam port plugs. after i sold them, i heard them in the middle of a showroom on a nice cambridge labs system with their ports unplugged and was amazed at how liquid they sounded compared to use on my panasonic SA-XR class D receiver. the cabinet resonance was subdued too, but the bass had slowed and muddied as ported speakers do.
if only the RC-10s had solid cabinets like my decent NHT superzeros, i could have lived with them for the rest of my life. the energy RC-10s, mission M-71s along with my 8" 2 way celestion dittons all had great sound with nice to outstanding tweeters in the case of the RC-10s, but all had resonant cabinets that drove me nuts to hear them.
my superzeros stomped all of them in the cabinet resonance department and in imaging specificity too, though not in the bass or treble departments. superzero soft domes just aren't that resolving. they soften metallic percussion greatly and sound downright mushy on vintage NAD gear. i could barely detect a difference between the sound of my sony DVD player and the panasonic's internal DAC with them where the insanely revealing and quick RC-10 minis clearly revealed that the sony was overly polite in the treble (big surprise their... NOT!) and had a trace of grain too while the panasonic DAC had tons more treble speed and air with a slightly clinical sound.
i've also owned a pair of radioshack aluminum cabinet minis that had decent though not high end sound, but have yet to hear a truly satisfactory pair of acoustic suspension minis. i auditioned a pair of NHT's 3 way classic 3s, and they don't have any cabinet resonance, image like crazy and have tons of speed top to bottom and top end air and sparkle. just as with my previous reviews based experience with the RC-10s, M-71s & even superzeros though, i don't consider them to be "the best giant killers under $1,000". they suffer from a slight but annoying aluminum ping resonance. they're great sounding, but i just couldn't live with the aluminum signature.
yesterday, i started reading speaker reviews and stumbled across role kayak minis for $750 (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/1005/nearfield8.htm) that were mostly favorably reviewed, but was put off by the mention of a boxy sound in one round of shootouts it nearly won. i also read a favorable review for expensive ATC SCM-11 2 ways (http://www.whathifi.com/atc/scm-11-2013/review) that are probably the best candidate i'm aware of for my next pair of minis, but i'd really like to find something with at least a ring radiator tweeter or better yet a titanium or aluminum one that's resonance free or best of all a plnar or ribbon. i love percussion and get annoyed when HF transients are softened just as i do bass transients with ported and large woofers.
i drool over speakers like YG acoustics, magicos and dunlavys, but those are well beyond my means. i just can't see why there isn't a manufacturer who doesn't compromise the sound of their acustic susension minis with either inferior resonant cabinets or resonant/low res drivers. had the RC-10s merely used better cabinets, they would stomp anything i've ever owned, but the less revealing superzeros get the nod for transparency in the cabinet realm.
i also used to lust after infinity's modulus minis with their 5 1/4" woofers and emit tweeters even if they were something like $1,200. i once started making installments on a pair of infinity 6 1/2" 2 ways with emit tweeters only to find the shop i was buying them from closed out and empty when i was going to pay them off. those sounded really nice even if they had foam surrounds.
so... does anyone know of any other acoustic suspension minis out there i should look into? search results pretty much only bring up NHT. i'm familiar with M&K though they seem a bit expensive, especially with poly woofers if they still even make acoustic suspension. i was horrified to see that they've sold out to ported speakers now like my old schjool infinity and boston acoustics favorites.
if there's a company making 5 1/4" or smaller two ways with effortless and lightning fast tweeters that are resonance free, i'd love to hear about it. other than gambling on ATC soft domes, all i can think of is buying a pair of ported 2 ways with solid cabinets like axiom's well reviewed millenia M2 and plugging their ports and gambling on a midbass bump. i love the sound of dayton's (MB quart) titanium domes BTW and have a pair in some 12" two ways i refurbed. they have the speed that soft domes don't in my experience with a slightly softer sound than aluminum for a very nice compromise.
for what it's worth, the 12" 2 ways i built using a 3,500hz crossover and the dayton tweeters i had lying around sound surprisingly good with no audible cabinet resonance and much better midrange than i'd imagine but suffer from a foreward midrange because the woofers are a few dB more efficient than the tweeters and have a very low level "stutter" distortion in the midrange at low levels like the woofer is stopping for a milisecond repeatedly in it's excursions. the distortion is less objectionable or audible than aluminum ping or cabinet resonance and pretty much disappears at volume, but adds a slight artificial sound to vocals. if i had to guess, it's caused by individual strands of coil clearing the woofer's (350w rated) massive magnets or could be related to the stiff doped accordion surrounds.
there has to be some manufacturer building high value 2 ways with solid cabinets and top quality drivers. if only golden ear made acoustic suspension instead of passive radiators, i'd get those because of their folded ribbon tweeters.
i loved the lightning fast totally uncolored sound i heard out of a pair of magnepan MG-12s on an italian tube amp and had considered MMTs, but hate the sound i've heard out of their larger "tin foil sounding" speakers despite the speed and resolution, ESPECIALLY in the bass department.
if anyone knows of other acoustic suspension minis out there, preferably under $1,000, i'd be grateful for a head's up. i'm thinking that in the long run i might just have to build a pair myself. i just can't abide by ported speakers. "if it's ported, it's distorted" as i like to say. infinity minis were the first time i ever heard a bass drum thump like it should.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Follow Ups:
I just stumbled upon his website and noticed he sells a few suspension monitors.
http://philjonesbass.com/store/category/home-audio/
out of boredom, i started reading up on them after seeing them make "class A" in stereophile's recommended components list. i've never been a fan of KEF as they've always been ported, even bandpass... cringe, but i've learned that they include port plugs with them!!!state of the art drivers?
CHECK and check again for their coincident driver which adds time alignment and a TRUE point sourcesealed?
CHECK once you put the foam plugs in5 1/2" bass driver that balances between bass and imaging?
CHECKcabinet that isn't flimsy?
CHECK!!! not only is it "massive", but it's 2x internally braced AND it has serious diffraction reducing radiusing. i don't know why MOST speakers lack radiusing on at least the front baffle.i only hope they're still available when i have enough money saved. $1,500 is a bit more than i'd rather pay, but if they truly live up to their class A rating, they are a bargain
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Edits: 09/08/14
Excellent thoughts Budget. I concur that once upon a time a small company named Infinity built some outstanding speakers! I do miss those EMIT tweeters & midrange drivers-they were sweet indeed!
Now, back to your query;
I am thinking that Revel and Usher produces a mini-monitor?
i actually put over $100 down on a pait of 6 1/2" 2 ways with emits back in the late 80s and about lost my mind when i went back to the shop to pay them off and take them home only to see it totally cleared out! they sounded sweet playing blonie's "the tide is high"
if they weren't so impossible to find and could be serviced in case their caps are shot, i'd still like to own a pair of minums. they even use RUBBER SURROUNDS!
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Not minimonitors, for sure, but speaking of Infinity...The sealed enclosure for the woofers allows me to run them with my homebrew 200WPC SET amps and still have tight, clean bass...amazing! Replacement EMITs can be had on ebay pretty easily. The midrange EMIMs used to be a problem but Apogee Acoustics in Oz now makes replacement EMIM diphragms that are actually superior to the originals in sound quality and durability.I'm pretty sure these are the last speakers I'll own, as I haven't heard anything bettet to date.
Edits: 10/04/14
i lusted after these so much after reading their review in audio magazine when infinity was still my favorite brand... before selling out to ports
If it's ported, it's distorted.
if no one will build the speaker i want, then i'll just have to build it myself.
5 1/2" woofer (enough for my tastes, and faster and better imaging than larger) and probably an air motion tweeter. (i'd like a 4 1/2" MTM design even more i'm sure)
i'm going to have to look into drivers to decide what to go with. i'm thinking at least for the woofer i'd probably use scan speak or seas excel or maybe focal. i really need to read up as diamond, berrylium, ring radiator, ribbon & planars are all considered to be state of the art. my understanding of air motion is that it's less fussy than ribbons and more transparent than most techs.
i have a cabinet design in my head where there would be an internal brace between the woofer and tweeter with the sides and back lined with triangle profile braces running front to back to add mass and bracing to the cabinets as well as reduce standing waves without having to make complicated shapes. i'd use 3/4" sides and backs with 1" front cabinets and radius all of the front edges to reduce diffraction.
of course i'd use premium crossover components too
THAT is how you make a "real" minimonitor as far as i'm concerned and i'm positive it can be done for much less than $1,000. i only wish i could mass produce them and sell them for reasonable prices for everyone else starved for high res minis.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Sealed box is not the only way to go if you want fast transients, negligible overhang, etc.., - and I once owned NHT Superzeros so I do know what they sound like. The standmount monitors I've been using employ what Phil Clements called "compression line" construction and this is basically a short, densely packed transmission line box with a rectangular port on the front. Try to keep your mind open to new possibilities.
Edits: 08/11/14
Probably depends on how you damp the line and how much energy comes out of the port. If a lot of energy comes out then it will eventually go out of phase with the driver and 12 plus 12 equals 24 Db roll off like a ported box eventually. Apologies to my very good old friend Bud Fried who is probably rolling over in his grave as he reads this.
transmission line is an even MORE gimmicky version of ported speakers with even MORE delay from the backwave. i have no interest in bandpass either.
i will settle for nothing but acoustic suspension or go the even "faster" route with planars etc.
transmission line is basically the same gimmick that bose uses in it's boomboxes. if others like that kind of sound, more power to them. besides the transient smearing delay of line transmission boxes (i'm quite familiar with them... they're really popular with lowther type single driver systems) the design would also offer less woofer control.
the thing i love MOST about sealed box speakers is their transient snap from their air spring. THAT is why the very first speakers that ever wowed me were little 4 1/2" infinity 2 ways. it was their utter lack of bass distortion and sluggishness that impressed me.
i know what i like
If it's ported, it's distorted.
You're the expert here! But really, just because Bose uses a folded line in their radio does not mean that all such designs are inherently bad. As a matter of fact, the better TL designs are often remarkable for their "fast" sound and their clean tight bass.I learned this for myself after hearing the Madisound Thor TL kit speakers several years ago. I was hard pressed to hear anything like the problems you ascribe to TL designs while listening to the Thors. Also, I don't hear those types of problems with the "compression line" speakers I'm currently using.
You really need to get out of your own head and start listening for a change. Listen to some of the better implementations of various types of designs. Bring a blindfold with you if/when you do because I suspect that, right now, you have "Eyes Wide Shut".
Edits: 08/28/14 08/28/14
Value off the chart!
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-b652-6-1-2-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-pair--300-652
I suspect that Madisound, Zalytron, etc. may have a kit that fits your criteria. Check GR Research too.
what a shame! with 1" sandwiched cabinets, boxy colorations should be virtually nonexistant.
all the best AFFORDABLE speakers aren't made anymore.
i used to lust after the boston acoustics 3 way mini towers with 2 x 8" woofers, a 3 1/2" cone mid and soft dome tweeter (possibly 3/4" or even 1/2") in the mid 80s and they were only something like $500
i'm bummed about the sonance minis not being available. i really wanted to listen to a pair
If it's ported, it's distorted.
I used to own the Boston HD7s with a sealed cabinet and while they were tight with the bass they annoyed the crap out of me for some reason. Maybe a hashy tweeter or whatever, but couldn't live with them. Anyway, system is more than just one part.
now boston acoustics used to be THE speakers i most lusted after in the old days. to my ears, they had the lowest distortion and best transients out of any speakers in 3 different shops that i listened to. i can still remember the panned percussion at the beginning of temple caves from planet drum and loving their clarity.
in looking them up recently though, i'd never get the 2x8" 3 way towers i liked because they use foam surrounds.
your bostons might just be old. MOST of the vintage speakers i listened to at a shop last year had shrill grainy treble that was totally unacceptable, even soft domes and from respected makers like KEF etc.
it could also be your electronics and not the speakers. i don't know your system, but if sounds bad... yeah... some kind of upgrade is needed
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Almost ALL cabinets ring. What varies is the frequencies they ring at badly and how much they ring. One inch cabinets, even small ones with small panels will ring. My speakers have 1" sides(3/4" MDF and 1/4" Corian and I can feel them ring. I've only seen a very few heroic designs with almost no ringing as per Stereophile tests.
And where they ring the worse may depend on what's important to you. The more rigid the wall the higher the main ringing frequency. This is good for bass. But BBC style cabinets with thin walls(and damping pads to lower the duration of the ringing) ring at low frequencies because the BBC was mainly worried with voice reproduction so they didn't want it to occur in the middle of the voice range where most cabinets are poor. But it did make the bass response a bit more bloomy.
of course no technology is 100% acoutically inert, but mass loading most certainly lowers box colorations. i have hated the box sound in ALL of my 1/2" MDF minis... celestion, mission and even energy. THAT's why superzeros are still my favorite speaker even if all three of the "boomers" i mentioned had higher resolution and top to bottom extension.
i was worried that because my 12" 2 ways i rebuilt had such large cabinets, even at 3/4", that they too would have a boxy sound but i couldn't detect any box boom.
i still go by what i read a long time ago in audio magazine. the MOST important test of any speaker isn't listening to it, it's the knuckle test. if it sounds hollow and woody, it's going to sound like that playing music. i always knock on any speaker before even listening to it with the exception of mail ordering and the really nice price of $30-$40 that i paid for the used celestions after giving them a demo.
needless to say, i'll NEVER buy harbeth speakers
If it's ported, it's distorted.
It's pretty obvious that you revere theories more than you do actual results. A clean and simple philosophy beats actual living experience every time, makes shopping easier...Yeah, right.
Edits: 08/28/14
There's a bunch from Selahhttp://www.selahaudio.com/index/#/monitors/
Edits: 08/09/14
that's the problem. no one seems to want to make good sealed minis anymore. i'd swear it's a greed conspiracy to keep little speakers from embarrasing overpriced junk like the little infinity RS 4 1/2" minis with foam (!!!) tweeters did everything i'd listened to before around 1985.
no one's mentioned selah, but they're out of my price range. i'd get $2500 ATC SCM 11s before those, but i'd really like to find a pair under $1,000. it's really starting to get annoying that no one does except NHT just about.
selah, alon, bigfoot, neumann, magico, wilson, sp acoustics, aerial, ATC & audionote all might make speakers that sound great, but who can afford them?
If it's ported, it's distorted.
You want less distortion, but you don't want to pay for units that are designed and built with components that minimize distortion.BTW you do know that at tuning frequency a reflex system will actually have far less IM distortion than a sealed unit at same frequency?
If low distortion is you goal, then neither sealed or reflex will approach the low distortion of a front loaded bass horn with a properly sized back chamber. Down side of course is size, but nothing beats that configuration for low distortion, period. (reams of data on that if you care)
But you have made up your mind/choice, thats fine, just know that to get good sound, you need to spend good money be they reflex, horn or sealed alignment designs.
True not stratosphere pricing but possibly more than those units of the past you mentioned.
Edits: 08/11/14
that's only because there's an industry wide bias against acoustic suspension speakers. a pair of minis could easily be built for $500 with decent cabinets and drivers (if ONLY energy used 3/4" MDF in my former RC-10s, i'd be happy with them the rest of my life. they're THAT resolved)
besides the cost cutting measures, especially in boxes, i tend to think that manufacturers deliberately don't build acoustic suspension speakers because a really good sub/sat system can easily embarrass a $5,000 tower.
the "keep it simplestupid" principle AKA "eye fi". it's what made me realize just how bogus most speakers were when my friend's little $120 4 1/2" nfinitys took a dump on EVERY speaker i ever heard in every way EXCEPT bass extension, but the clarity of the bass is what grabbed me. the quality, not the quantity.
i'd gladly pay $500 for RC-10s with REAL cabinets or even superzeros with premium drivers. it CAN be done. it's looking like i'm just going to have to go the DIY route to get the speakers i want with a reasonable price.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
... but they also build small monitors using dome tweeters (and speakers made to custom specifications), one example being the "Vicino" ($995). Not made in some Asian prison factory for mere pennies but not exactly "crazy expensive" either...If you asked them about it, Selah might be able to build you a custom design using 1" thick MDF for the cabinet and drivers that fit your budget and tastes. Check it out!
Good things have been said about Selah Audio so far. The "Anniversario" looks like a good one. I like ribbon tweeters and you probably would too. Airy and detailed. Selah Audio speakers may not be the most efficient speakers around but if you have a good 50 watts or so you should be fine.
Realize, you are probably not going to find gold for the price of copper. Save up your money for as long as necessary and get yourself something that will satisfy you for a good while.
Edits: 08/09/14 08/09/14 08/09/14 08/09/14 08/09/14 08/09/14 08/09/14
their website doesn't say which speakers are sealed or ported, but i really liked the looks of a lot of their speakers with seas excel and scan speak & fountek etc. drivers.
they're just a little bit pricey for me at $1500 to start.
i'm really thinking the best way to get premium drivers in a sufficiently dense box, and also including diffraction reducing radiused edges that few manufacturers use is to just build my own 2 ways with premium crossover components.
i'd love to own that 7" 3 way system with ribbon tweeters and dome mids if the cabinets were rigid. i'd plug the ports if needed. i bet those speakers have tons of midrange and treble speed. i couldn't afford them, but i probably wouldn't kick them out the door either
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Did you even bother to look at the picture gallery in the link I provided? As I've said, you might be able to have them build you your "dream budget minimonitor" or something like that for under $1000 - if you'd bother to ask them. Replace speculation with fact-finding, get on the phone, and see what possibly might be...However, don't expect to find your ideal speakers for Asian NHT Zero prices, anywhere. It simply can't be done here.
Edits: 08/27/14 08/27/14
circa 1985...NOTHING i'd listened to before had either the precise imaging, probably helped by being spaced at a really close 3 feet apart or so, or especially the low levels of distortion with lightning fast snap in the bass range. small woofers in sealed boxes are the best at bass to my ear. i'd build a sub out of 4-8 4 1/2" or 5 1/4" woofers in a sealed box before ever using a 15" woofer.
it was a humble system with a 50w denon receiver and a B&O turntable, but listening to talking heads' remain in light, an album i'd listened to 100 times, on those little infinity RS minis was a transendental experience.
up 'till that point, i was happy enough with my yamaha PC10 boombox.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Edits: 08/09/14
An an ultra budget minded, I remember listening to a few very low cost speakers and I liked the Cambridge Soundworks Model 6, an acoustic suspension design by H. Kloss ( Bless his soul). Reminded me of the Advent and KLH. Dont know about the general acceptance of this speaker among audiophiles. Sounded very likeable to me. Being so cheap is no longer a factor since the Pioneer 100+ speakers. I dont know if it is still made. Also dont know how it would sound driven by super amplifiers.
Good luck
Bill
they were the minis that came with their mini system. i don't recall if they were ported or not, but they definitely weren't toys. i was really impressed too with just how liquid my energy RC-10s i was selling sounded on that system compared to my panasonic class D receiver & DAC.
if cambridge does make sealed speakers, i'd like to give them a sereious audition.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
"i just can't abide by ported speakers. "if it's ported, it's distorted" as i like to say."
I can't help you in your quest but I love your sentiment. I only have acoustic suspension speakers in the joint! Nothing newish however. I think it's a matter of taste and mine apparently doesn't like ported speakers in the long term. Maybe it's the more linear suspension, maybe it's not having a zero at DC in the transfer Fn, maybe it's just sheer crackpotedness. No way to know but I spent a lot of money doing the due dilligence over the years and that's definitely the way of it for me.
They do indeed appear to have become a fairly rare breed but I hope they never go extinct. Plugging the port of a bass reflex does not an acoustic suspension make!
Rick
totally agreed! the cabinet resonances of my mission M71s and energy RC10s became either more pronounced or less obscured when i unplugged the ports even if the bass tightened up and cleared up when plugged.
it's not "crackpotedness"! your ear prefers lower distortion levels, that's all. professional audio engineers prefer sealed speakers because they too prefer accuracy over euphonics. a mix done on ported speakers will be less accurate.
actually, sealed speakers, at least in the professional realm, seem to slowly be making a comeback. it's just sad that MOST of the sealed speakers out there tend to be very expensive eg. yg acoustics, wilson, ATC, vandersteen, sp acoustics, magico and alon etc.
i think manufacturers don't like to make sealed speakers mostly because most consumers will just buy whatever sounds loudest a la "ugh! me like big sound bass in cave!" but i think another part of it is that they'd have a hard time selling full sized speakers when a properly designed mini with quality drivers will run circles around them in imaging and midrange speed.
sub/sat is not only the best bang for anyone's buck, but has a lot of sonic advantages to recommend for them like better driver integration and simpler crossovers.
i really want to check out sonance's $500 622c 2 ways. they have 6 1/2" woofers (a bass extension compromise over smaller but faster drivers) and silk domes that won't have quite the speed of metal and ribbon etc. drivers, but with full 1" thick sandwiched cabinets, those puppies will at least be virtually resonance free when even more expensive speakers use 1/2" (no! really!) to 3/4" MDF. they sound like "modern clasics" along the lines of boston acoustics
If it's ported, it's distorted.
If you can find an 80s pair of Yamaha NS series speakers (not the ns10) like NS4, 5, 6 or 8s they are very nice sleeper true acoustic suspension systems.
i'm familiar with yamaha NS-10s as they were the standard for nearfeild monitoring for most of the 90s at least, and i heard a single one playing tunes in front of a shop and was surprised by how nice it sounded. i'd always thought thet would sound lean because of the toilet paper trick people used to mask their tweeters.
i'm not really a fan of buying used gear whenever possible as so often it's someone trying to unload something busted.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
The NS 10s are part of the same series but completely different from the 4,5,6 and 8. Here's a link to a 5. They are cheezy looking but are true acoustic suspension and sound very smooth and articulate. I bought a pare of 5s for 15.00 at a yard sale. The 8s are larger and add a midrange.
I remember the NS5. $15? You really got ripped off!
Dave
Really? I used to sell them (reluctantly) and they sounded terrible to me.
Dave
well i wouldn't exactly call listening to a single speaker on a busy street's sidewalk critical listening, but i DID bring a bias to the table that the NC10s would sound like crap based on whatever i read about them back in the day, harsh treble i think was their biggest criticism, but thought one sounded decent enough. i think it was their punchy bass that most impressed me and it wasn't excactly being used in a high end reference system either
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Enough people liked them that they are still popular today. They are mostly used for mixing, where the desired characteristics are different.
Dave
ATC SCM 7 (5" @ $1,500) SCM 11 (6" @ $2,500) are very expensive, but true high end monitors from all the reviews i've read... out of my immediate price rangegallo strada 2 minis @ $1,000 are definitely worth trying to audition from reviews comparing them to electrostats
sonnance 622c 6 1/2" 2 ways with 1" sandwich cabinets at just $500 are REALLY interesting sounding options that might just be what i end up getting if only their soft domes are more revealing than superzeros which shouldn't be hard as cheap mission and celestion soft domes are clearly superior and superzeros are my current "reference" because of their lack of cabinet resonance even if they lack resolution and are too forgining
role audio kayaks @ $750 are at least affordable and very well reviewed, but their parent company, NSM uses internally braced 1/2" MDF on a fairly expensive speaker and i wouldn't trust them to be listenable unless i knew thay used at least 3/4" MDF.
my dissapointing but well reviewed mission and energy speakers both had resonant cabinets that totally ruined their sound for me. it's sad because the energys in particular used extremely revealing and uncolored drivers that spanked my superzeros from top to bottom in every way, but i'd still go with the zeros because they're uncolored with their better boxes.
you know, audio reviews never seem to talk about box resonances unless it's for crazy expensive speakers like magico, wilson or YG acoustics with their aluminum and lead cabinets. any time i audition speakers, the very first thing i do is knock on the cabinets. you can't get true hifi sound out of resonant boxes no matter how good your drivers and crossovers are.
someone's gotta be making entry level speakers with cabinets as good as NHT and sonnance and drivers as good as energy unless greed conspires to keep anyone from ever doing better.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Edits: 08/07/14 08/07/14
If you are interested, email me with your contact information.
jm
i'm a long ways away from actually being able to buy anything. my receiver is still in storage along with my music collection and i don't even have a CD player, but when i can afford to go out of state and get my things shipped back, i want to start rebuilding my system.
right now, i'm just researching, but thanks for the offer.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
... I'm wondering if the ATC or Gallo speakers might be your two best choices. Role Audio and Sonance might sound a bit too polite, at least for your tastes.These inexpensive little HSU speakers with their horn-loaded tweeters might be another good choice for you, although you say you dislike ported speakers. Although described as being non-fatiguing (and that could be interpreted as sounding "polite"), the reviews seem to be positive ones (in which the reviewers praise the HB-1s "transient response")...
Edits: 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14
not a fan of horn tweeters either. if i wanted to get a ported speaker, it very well might be an axiom milennia (3?). they've been well reviewed and feature dayton (MB quart) titanium tweeters i know from experience are very fast and detailed without any metallic signature i was able to hear in the 2 ways i rebuilt. i'd get those and just plug the ports, but really, i'd rather not buy ANY ported speaker as that just encourages manufacturers to kleep making them.what i like is speakers that don't add or subtract anything to a signal. i really love the sound of magnepan MG12s on the right equipment, but i've heard terrible resonances on 2 of their larger speakers. when they sound right, planars have the fastest speed and detail with absolutely no boxy resonances. they're just really amp fussy.
i'd want to audition sonance speakers before i buy them or at least buy them with a return policy. while they may be less revealing than something with a metal dome or ribbon etc., i HAVE heard soft domes that sound a lot better than my superzero's overly polite fabric domes. i think that's what it was... heavier material.
my celestion ditton 100s and mission M71s both had soft domes that were much faster and extended than my NHTs. i thought i read that sonance uses a silk dome. that should be better.
i'm just looking for something that has more resolution than superzeros, but without the cabinet resonance of celestion/mission/energy or the aluminum signature of NHT classic 3s. i'm also not necessarily looking for a speaker that's the last i ever own, just something that neither obscures too much detail nor adds resonant distortions.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Edits: 08/08/14
Get the pair of ATC-SCM-10 Active speakers that are currently for sale on Ebay/Epay......bidding at $820.00
my entire music collection and what's left of my system is in storage in another state. i just started reading audio mags again and decided to try and find info on the kinds of speakers i like and that fit my budget unlike most of the ported and/or crazy expensive stuff reviewed in stereophile and absolute sound.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Ears can make great research tools when ideas get in our way. I would suggest simply listening from now on, listen with as little prejudice as possible (a blindfold might help). You might be surprised at what is *heard*.
Second hand pair of Audio Note K/Spe or K/Lx.
They go for $2700 to $13,000 New depending on the version.
For sealed the ATC would be a second choice if you can't get a K.
The bonus with the K is that is one of the only easy to drive sealed designs which allows for the use of 5 watt SET amplifiers. 6 ohm 5 ohm min. Dead easy to drive.
I'd like to see more sealed but it isn't true that ports are highly distorted. Not anymore anyway. More difficult to set up and position but that's because they tend to put out a LOT more bass and bass causes more room problems. The Audio Note J and E are ported and have 0.2% THD at 95dB from 20-80hz. And never rise above 0.6% THD at any frequency above that. Some find them lean as a result. They'be gotten used to the fuzz perhaps.
ATC I have not seen actual distortion measurements on but I expect them to be very low as well. I find them to sound more hifi than the K. The K has been around over 30 years so it's worth adding to the audition list.
And you recommended used speakers 2-1/2 to 13 times more than his budget?
We all have our preferences, but it doesn't have to be all Audio Note all the time.
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
There aren't many sealed box speakers and the best one - IMO that sounds better than the ATC 19 is a second hand AN K which can be had for $1,000.Indeed, before coming back to Canada for vacation I saw a used K/D for $1k US.
Unlike virtually every other sealed box design - the AN K has a gentle impedance so he can actually buy and successfully use a 5-10 watt SET amplifer and get better than 40hz in room response.
Most acoustic suspensions have no bass depth unless they're gigantic and most of them are power pigs requiring high power (generally inferior high negative feedback SS amplifiers). While there are some "good sounding" high power no feedback amplifiers - they tend to cost $8,000+ from the likes of a Pass Labs. So while you may save a touch on the speakers you don't in the amplifiers needed.
The K sounds about as good as loudspeakers sound that are this size. And while some of them are 13 times the price - that is just a different version of the same thing. You can upgrade the $1k model at a later time if desired. Few other companies offer such upgrade schemes.
If I heard a better sealed box design I'd happily recommend it over the AN K. NHT IMO certainly isn't in my opinion. ATC isn't nearly as friendly to amplifiers and IMO sounds more like loudspeakers and less "real" than the K.
PS: This is a suggestion - most people are familiar with AN E and AN J which are ported loudspeakers. I also owned the AN K myself for a time and am considering them again. The OP may not know about the Sealed Box under the radar gem that I consider to be quite far and away the best $3k speaker on the market (that I have heard). And if you can get one for around $1k from an older series with less pretty cabinetry then it's one to look out for.
I'll be happy to audition some sealed box designs if you provide me a list of them - There just ain't tons out there. And the list is even smaller if you actually want amplifier options or reasonable sensitivity.
Edits: 08/09/14
Was the used K/D for $1k US at the Victoria shop? I would go for a listen if they were...
Religion is the world's oldest profession
Hong Kong.
well, for now, amplification isn't really an issue. i have a nice sounding panasonic SA-XR 100wpc class D receiver that has tons of speed and detail. it can sound a little lean with highly resolving aluminum domes, but not at all harsh.
it would be hard to audition a used pair of audionotes, and my previous experience buying used gear is that more often than not, it's buying someone else's problem.
i never would have imagined audionote could be had for "real world" prices considering they make $100,000 ongaku tube amps.
if i were to buy used, i'd consider boston or vandersteen 3 ways or possibly infinity if it uses rubber surrounds, especially the modulus minis i've never seen used
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Plenty of companies make expensive and entry level lines - you can buy $4000 Sony Headphones and probably $20 ones too.
AN has speakers for $700. But specifically sealed the K is the only one.
Certainly the K will be tougher to find and if you don't like used so be it. Although speakers are generally safe buys second hand provided you can hear them first.
I'd probably lean with the ATC for more visceral sensation over Vandersteen but that's why there are plenty of options out there.
I have had but one bad experience buying used speakers so far, and I've bought several pairs over the last decade or so. In that single disappointing instance, the ebay seller was quick to arrange for return shipping and the refund of all of my money.
Finding a seller with a fairly long history of positive feedback is important as they are most careful to preserve their good reputation. Avoiding most pawn shop gear and inspecting Craigslist stuff before buying are usually smart things to do.
Given your budgetary considerations, I think that you'd be doing yourself more harm than good by avoiding all used gear. Gently used, well-cared for gear normally sells for 1/2 to 2/3 of original cost but in some cases nice stuff can be found for less.
Just my two cents! Good luck in your quest to find the right pair of speakers.
...used speakers are one of the safer bets. No moving parts and very little to wear out, especially if they are only a few years old. Most quality speakers will last a couple of decades, so purchasing used for less than 50 cents on the dollar would seem to be a prudent move. YMMV, of course....
-RW-
if it isn't abused, sure, used gear can be a value, but i've bought a $1,000 emax sampler with 1/2 of an owners manual i didn't know i needed a keyboard to test once on consignment that had a loud hard drive and was probably dropped that i got stuck with once along with a $1,000 tascam 8 track reel to reel that had busted meters and i think audio problems with one channel that i also got stuck with. (eff you forever rogue music you SOBs!!!)if i bought anything used, it would be something that i'm able to check out in person such as at an audio store. i don't like the sound of having to pay return shipping on something unacceptable.
i listened to a lot of seriously overpriced vintage gear at one shop that specialized in it and so many of the speakers had spitty sounding treble that i wonder if they all didn't have faulty capacitors. i was really annoyed to see the EXACT same technics turntable i'd bought with an audio technica LINE CONTACT cartridge for $80 around 1985 being sold for $159!
if i could find a good deal on anything that still sounds good, sure, i'd buy it. i just don't like the idea of gambling.
ebay sucks too! i bought a CD of pump up the volume that i never received and both ebay and paypal kept playing pass the buck on me until my time window closed even though the seller who originally had 100%+ stuck it to their last 8 customers. i'm not enamored with ebay anymore and haven't bought anything there in years, but i HAVE sold a ton of mint condition CDs and DVDs and still have 100% myself.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Edits: 08/09/14
You are a hard one to please. Of course you'd drink champagne on a beer budget if you could. Most people would - if they could.I'm not passing judgement, I'm just saying that you might be wise to save up your pennies for a while...
Edits: 08/09/14
right now, i'm just researching and gear lusting. what's left of my system is in another state right now.
i don't think i'm tough to please, it's just no one seems to want to make sealed minis with BOTH great drivers and cabinets. NHT has great cabs, but superzeros are low resolution while classic 3s have aluminum driver resonances. i hate ALL forms of resonance... box colorations, driver colorations, port boom and horn shriek etc.
the 3 other sealed/port pluggable speakers i've owned all had sperior drivers to my superzeros, especially my energy RC-10s, but they all had skimpy boxes.
it reads to me like a "pick your distortion" compromise as so few makers are making the $500 minis they should and the ones that do tend to want at least 3x that amount.
i think when i HAVE saved up to rebuild my system, i'll just make my own minis with the best components i can afford, braced 3/4" minimum cabinets and even radius the front baffles to reduce diffraction.
crap... if i had the money, i'd design my own line of high value nothing but sealed box speakers starting with 5 1/4" 2 ways.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Are you talking about mental distortion or audible distortion?
Budget Minded,
You don't have to buy Audio Note K's but you really should hear them. They are some Audio Note fans' favorite AN speaker.
Like you I want to hear the Spx version. I think it largely depends on the room and the materials of the room. The AN's sound a lot better in HK IMO because of the concrete walls.
I am somewhat tempted to go with a K/Spe again but I kind of want the fuller range bass of the E and the superb start stop pin drop speed of the Alnico drivers. Maybe AN will do an Alnico AN K
if audionote can make $100,000 SET amps, i wonder if their gear is overpriced, but i'd definitely like to hear a pair of K speakers to see what they sound like. i'd wonder about imaging with them though as they have such huge front baffles with square edges. that's one of the reasons i prefer minimonitors... less diffraction issues
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Well they also don;t present the holes in the stage slim line speakers exhibit or the lack of driver integration so they sound closer to a single driver than virtually any other 2 way design. Imaging is less precise but the scale and stage is more encompassing to the point where they have been compared favourably to MBL in the ability to fill the room (Peter Bruninger of TAS and Stereophile noted this). Further you get more bottom end than mini-monitors.
Stuff like the Ongaku and their other pricey stuff it should be noted are made in very small numbers using exotic parts materials - they are made to order for rich people. Most of those pricey designs have cheaper options of the same design. The AN E comes in something like 20 versions from ~$3k to $210,000. Just ignore the pricey ones and look at the stuff you can afford. Remember Vandersteen also has a $50,000 speaker.
Regardless I would not buy a speaker that you can't audition first.
given the chance, yes, i do try to audition speakers, but because sealed boxes are so rare, especially at the entry level where they belong, sometimes one has to gamble as i did on the energy RC-10s i would have loved if only they had better boxes. i'm really at the point now where i only read reviews for entertainment purposes after raves for both the RC-10s and my mission M71s that both had unnacceptable levels of box colorations.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
But ported speakers and I use one that is superb in the bass control are inferior to closed boxes because of their faster roll off. The faster the bass roll off the longer the overhang and there is no way a good ported speaker will match a good closed box in this respect. It's those darn laws of physics again.
...there is no way a good ported speaker will match a good closed box in this respect.
Carl Marchisotto might debate that notion with you. :)
I doubt he'd debate that(transient response) with me. It's simple physics and Carl is a way better designer than that. There are all sorts of compromises in woofer design and that's part of the reason reflex is chosen so often but not for best transient response.
Another reason for ported boxes is that the best woofer drivers are designed for ported boxes and not for closed boxes. You would need custom drivers for closed boxes. That's costly unless you're making a lot of speakers or can sell enough to charge enough, for example, Magico, who will not design a ported box.
By the way if the ported box is designed for transient response it can be quite good. The Rockports are excellent. My SEAS Froy 3 is very good. It just can't ultimately be as good at transients as closed boxes.
He might simply provide his current speaker's overall performance as the counterpoint to the theory. :)
He wouldn't and why do you keep arguing something you seem to know nothing about. Just because his speakers have good bass does not mean that a closed box can have better controlled bass.
I have 18 inch woofers designed to be closed or ported. They have excellent bass ported. They have better transients closed box. And the designer, who prefers the ported set up(he's a professional and also a good friend) agrees with me that the transients are better closed. But the woofer sounds dry that way and he likes the affect added by the slightly warmer bass. But he knows it's not as accurate.
why do you keep arguing something you seem to know nothing about.
Too funny! Yeah, those Grand Reference speakers really are pretty crappy sounding, right? You have heard them, right?
But he knows it's not as accurate.
I guess that's why people spend $200k on them. :)
what does that have to do with the subject, the transient ability of closed versus ported box? Ported can be very good. But all things equal it CAN NOT be as transient perfect as a closed box. You can practice any audio religion you want but it doesn't change reality. Believe what you want. I won't try to confuse you with the truth any more.
your crusade against ported speakers. I've heard some excellent ones. And all things aren't equal across makes.
As for me I prefer boxless speakers altogether.
You don't read. I'm not against ported speakers. I admire some. I own and use them. I've written that in my replies to you. It's just that a good closed box has less bass overhang than a god ported box and I'm tired of audio silliness where opinion is substituted for things that are actually known based on I heard it and I liked it and that means it's the best. It's very strange. Audiophiles as a group are very smart people and very well educated and they seem to throw all this away when they fall in love.
i've gotten into arguments so many times with ported speaker apologists that i don't even bother. no matter how many references i bring, including woofer manufacturer's comments. port fans just don't want to hear that ported speakers are DESIGNED to resonate and add harmonics that aren't part of the original sound just like blowing across the opening of a bottle and exciting IT's resonant modes. they don't want to hear that there's a time lag from woofer motion to the port's output. they don't want to hear that the delay creates phase issues. they don't want to hear that air springs are better at controlling woofer motion or that they improve transient speed.it's purely an emotional reaction. ported fans hate rolled off bass and refuse to accept that the euphonic bass boost ports give to a signal is really a form of distortion.
i knew this BY EAR before i started my education in audio. big ported speakers sound slower and muddier in the bass, to annoyingly boomy or can even have port noise. the first time i heard 4 1/2" infinity woofers snapping hard on kick drums, i flipped out. it was the first time i'd heard low distortion transients despite listening to a bunch of shop speakers up to klipsch lascalas. i had to find out WHY my friend's tiny little $120 infinity speakers sounded so much better, to MY EARS, than the floor standers that never really impressed me.
what i learned was smaller speakers can move faster because they have less mass and the air spring adds control to the woofer and cancels the backwaves out better if not 100% because of potential box resonances and standing waves etc.
just try to argue scientific facts though with someone who feels personally offended that you DARE disparage the sound they like. all you'll do is get 3-4 really whizzed off people saying things about your momma eventually.
i know what i like and i'm not budging from it. if i don't get an acoustic suspension/infinite baffle/sealed set of speakers, i'll get planars or ribbons for even more transient speed and freedom from box resonances. getting any ported speaker is autamatically a step in the wrong direction i'm never making.
i'd post the science behind it to back you up, but it will literally go in one ear and out the other with anyone who just doesn't want to hear it.
there ARE plenty of ported speakers that do sound pretty good, but they just can't thump like a sealed woofer can. i can clearly hear the distortion in ported speakers with their dulled transients, added harmonics and overhang. bigger isn't better to me... faster and tighter is. i even prefer a little bit of rolloff too.
i guess, to port fans, bass rolloff is an unforgiveable form of distortion to the frequency response. that's about the only concession to acoustic suspension distortion that could ever be claimed and be true compared to bass reflex.
BTW... if you REALLY want tight bass at the expensive of even lower sensitivity, nothing beats an isobaric "two woofers acting as one" system whether it's in push-pull or push-push mode though i seem to remember that push-pull has the benefit of cancelling some distortion too.
[img]i've gotten into arguments so many times with ported speaker apologists that i don't even bother. no matter how many references i bring, including woofer manufacturer's comments. port fans just don't want to hear that ported speakers are DESIGNED to resonate and add harmonics that aren't part of the original sound just like blowing across the opening of a bottle and exciting IT's resonant modes. they don't want to hear that there's a time lag from woofer motion to the port's output. they don't want to hear that the delay creates phase issues. they don't want to hear that air springs are better at controlling woofer motion or that they improve transient speed.it's purely an emotional reaction. ported fans hate rolled off bass and refuse to accept that the euphonic bass boost ports give to a signal is really a form of distortion.
i knew this BY EAR before i started my education in audio. big ported speakers sound slower and muddier in the bass, to annoyingly boomy or can even have port noise. the first time i heard 4 1/2" infinity woofers snapping hard on kick drums, i flipped out. it was the first time i'd heard low distortion transients despite listening to a bunch of shop speakers up to klipsch lascalas. i had to find out WHY my friend's tiny little $120 infinity speakers sounded so much better, to MY EARS, than the floor standers that never really impressed me.
what i learned was smaller speakers can move faster because they have less mass and the air spring adds control to the woofer and cancels the backwaves out better if not 100% because of potential box resonances and standing waves etc.
just try to argue scientific facts though with someone who feels personally offended that you DARE disparage the sound they like. all you'll do is get 3-4 really whizzed off people saying things about your momma eventually.
i know what i like and i'm not budging from it. if i don't get an acoustic suspension/infinite baffle/sealed set of speakers, i'll get planars or ribbons for even more transient speed and freedom from box resonances. getting any ported speaker is autamatically a step in the wrong direction i'm never making.
i'd post the science behind it to back you up, but it will literally go in one ear and out the other with anyone who just doesn't want to hear it.
there ARE plenty of ported speakers that do sound pretty good, but they just can't thump like a sealed woofer can. i can clearly hear the distortion in ported speakers with their dulled transients, added harmonics and overhang. bigger isn't better to me... faster and tighter is. i even prefer a little bit of rolloff too.
i guess, to port fans, bass rolloff is an unforgiveable form of distortion to the frequency response. that's about the only concession to acoustic suspension distortion that could ever be claimed and be true compared to bass reflex.
BTW... if you REALLY want tight bass at the expensive of even lower sensitivity, nothing beats an isobaric "two woofers acting as one" system whether it's in push-pull or push-push mode though i seem to remember that push-pull has the benefit of cancelling some distortion too.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Linn_Isobarik_DMS_loudspeaker_enclosure.png/210px-Linn_Isobarik_DMS_loudspeaker_enclosure.png
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Edits: 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14 08/08/14
I know you can only lead a horse to water. That would have been my last post but to reply to you.
By the way I own isobaric speakers and they work the same as single drivers except they are 3 DB down in efficiency in parallel(the usual) and the rear box is 1/2 the size of the same characteristics of the box with a single driver. They don't go deeper. But if used facing each other even harmonics do cancel as you said. There is a potential problem if you run them too high infrequency unless you roll off the rear driver because sound from the rear driver can come through the front one and it will be time delayed, of course, and make the sound less clear.
now what i read says just the opposite about isobaric speakers. the combined force of two drivers pushing the same signal, with half the internal volume for a tighter air spring to boot is supposed to add extra transient snap and speed at the expense of 3dB efficiency, but with twice the power handling.
as to ported speakers, i just have no interest in them at all. it's an inferior sounding technology and even in the very best designs, you'd still get tighter woofer control if you plug the ports.
to me, it's not much different than telling someone you hate mayo, and then someone trying to get you to eat a mayo smothered steak. "sure there's mayo on it, but it's steak!"
yes, i'm just as hard headed and set in my priorities as port fans are, but i like to think i'm more of a realist. i'm happy to trade extension off for several forms of distortion. lack of LF extension and lower efficiency are the only real drawbacks for using sealed speakers. i can live with those issues, especially with the addition of room tuning EQ.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
An isobaric driver combo has the same Q and resonant frequency as a single driver but the Vas is 1/2 of a single. That's why the lower volume but the other two say the extension and quality(damping) will be the same for a 1/2 size box.
And a good ported box can sound better than an OK closed box. If the Q of a closed box is high(like the BBC LS3/5a) the bass quality is not very good.
But if I were a zillionaire and could afford to custom make my own drivers I would ultimately use a closed box and probably do multi amps and electronic crossovers so the amps don't have to drive through a crossover which will also degrade the sound.
yes... all that along with state of the art cabinets... aluminum is gaining popularity and while you're at it with the triamping, why not add state of the art DACs and high resolution room correction?
sure, all that's fine, but a nice simple 2 way with decent cabinets, drivers and crossover components can get you most of the way to spanking multithousand dollar towers once you throw in a suitable sub.
me? i can get along just fine with nothing more than 5 1/2" of woofer.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Or actually, a pair of Clues. The Clue seems to be an honest, no bullshit design but it requires very careful setup. Despite being "finicky", it might also provide you with something that other small speakers cannot (especially the ones with sealed boxes): Bass.The only way you are going to "get along just fine" using a tiny 5-1/2" woofer is with judicious use of boundary reinforcement. And... a port or two (sigh!). And possibly, as many subwoofers as you can fit in your listening space as well.
Try to listen to a pair of these, and don't forget to bring a blindfold with you. Forget about your neat little theories, you really need to try just *listening* from now on...
Edits: 08/28/14 08/28/14 08/28/14
i have no problems with bass roll off. accuracy is always far more important to me. that's why, despite their very limited resolution, i consider NHT superzeros to be the best speakers i've owned. their sins are of omission. my energy RC-10s blew them away from top to bottom for extension and resolution, but their boomy boxes drove me nuts, and like the missions, i hated the woolier sounding bass with their ports unplugged.
i have no use for box resonances, driver resonances (eg. aluminum & planar *ping*) or ported tuning resonances (i just hate ported speakers... they sound sloppy and slow to me, but do have more weight)
the first time i heard bass i liked, it was from 4 1/2" infinity minis. i revelled at the speed and clarity saying THAT'S what a kick drum REALLY sounds like.
i'm always getting into arguments with people over ports even when i present 100 sources that point out the many distortions they induce, even from DRIVER MANUFACTURERS. i had 6 1/2" JBL porrted 2 ways, and my superzeros stomped them for bass clarity.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
As a very long time owner of NHT Superzero's, I understand totally what you are saying. I still use them in a headphone setup similar to the pic of the gallo's below. The Gallo's are singularly unique - single driver, no crossover, solid steel ROUND enclosure which I would presume bests any wooden box - subwoofers of course.
I use the micro's as pictured (they are soooo small - Superzero's are gigantic in comparison) but about the only speaker I ever truly wonder about is the Strada's - compared to a bunch of boxes, I wouldn't think twice about pulling the trigger on them. Probably will one of these days. With the seemingly rediculous prices for stone cold wooden boxes it's a wonder the Gallo's aren't thrice the price. Powered superzero's look interesting too - so cheap!
Religion is the world's oldest profession
I am not sure if the Role Audio minis use 1/2" MDF but, even if they did, that fact alone would not necessarily discourage me. How the cabinet is constructed (braced internally, etc...) can make the difference between a successful design and one that is not. The totality of the design is what counts, not just individual aspects or materials.That said, you are probably not going to find the perfect minimonitor for "under $1000" - maybe not even for three times that much!
Edits: 08/07/14 08/07/14
there has to be better than what i've owned so far though. NHT makes great resonance free cabinets well under $1,000, but superzeros lack resolution and classic 3s have aluminum resonance issues, so i'm not a fan of their drivers while mission, celestion and especially energy had great drivers, but lousy cabinets.
if i was a conspiracy theorist, i'd say there's a conspiracy to keep anyone from making a truly reference pair of monitors that's quite possible under $1,000. it would have only cost energy maybe another $50, if that, to make beefier cabinets for their RC-10s which had AWESOME drivers. if i still had them, i thought about bonding 3/4" MDF with front baffle radiusing to the top bottom and sides at least. the sides of those speakers sound almost like plastic boombox speakers when you rap them.
superzeros are still under $300 i think. NHT could EASILY just upgrade the tweeters in those for under $100 and make speakers that have real resolution.
if i had the money, i'd start my own speaker line based around the best bang for buck possible, probably adopting the newer aluminum cabinets tech and use premium drivers and components with lower profit margins than the big guys.
sonnance is able to make 6 1/2" 2 ways with 1" thick cabinets! it doesn't cost $500 to upgrade something like that with premium drivers unless you're using seas excel or something.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Well, there you go! I used to own Superzeros and I thought they were fantastic speakers within their frequency range.
They're were not as cheap as I had hoped they'd be, though. I needed to buy 28" tall speaker stands and two good subwoofers. Then, I installed the North Creek crossover upgrade kit. After all was said and done, the total price for me ended up being way over $1000 per pair...
And that's why someone in the market for a good pair of minimonitors might as well plan on spending at least $1500 - $2000.
Absolute Zero? A killer with a decent sub.
i only wish NHT would at least upgrade the tweeters on superzeros. something CHEAP like dayton's (formerly MB quart) titanium dome would really add speed, extension and transparency to the system, but a nice premium woofer wouldn't hurt either.
i had high hopes that the energy RC-10s i got an amazing deal ($220 i think) on closeout would have been just what i'm looking for. but with their ports plugged, there was always enough box resonance that it detracted greatly from my enjoyment of the music even if both the woofer and tweeter walked all of zero drivers from bass extension through treble air.
i just didn't think that speakers originally priced at $570 would ever use such flimsy cabinets when i bought them. at one point, i thought about having new boxes built to put everything in, but it's got to be hard to rout for a square framed woofer. i loved the energy drivers so much.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
NHT has made improvements depending on how old yours are, as per the "new Superzero 2.1" so they say
No mere update, the SuperZero 2.1 makes some subtle improvements to the original Super Zero and SuperZero 2.0 designs. Specifically, we added a 2nd order crossover, effectively blocking more of the bass that tries to sneak into the tweeter, and a newly revised woofer. These small changes significantly lower distortion, improving power handling, and makes the lil’ bugger sound even better than the original
Religion is the world's oldest profession
I have the Absolute Zero and B-10d sub combo. I thought the Absolute Zero was the real upgrade to the NHT mini line? They are incredible set up right. Better than either of the Supers IMO. They are never discussed much but they are incredible speakers. A sub is still really a must.
Hmmm, given NHT's description of them I am going to have to add them to my list!The Classic Absolute Zero is NHT's premium version of the original 1992 NHT SuperZero mini-monitor. In this latest version, we've managed to extend the bass response and improve the horizontal dispersion while maintaining the open and natural midrange for which all NHT models are known
And as per this thread
The Classic Absolute Zero, like most NHT speakers, is an acoustic suspension design (not ported or vented)
Religion is the world's oldest profession
Edits: 08/10/14
If I remember correctly, when Ken Kantor designed the original Superzero one of his goals was the deliberate limitation of bass response. By deliberately limiting bass response, he hoped to free the "woofer" of the Superzero from the reproduction of bass frequencies. That way, the small midrange/upper bass driver could be dedicated to the ultra-clean reproduction of midrange/upper bass frequencies alone. The need for dedicated subwoofers was thought of a positive thing, in other words...It is therefore possible that some of the midrange clarity, one of the hallmarks of the Superzero, has been lost to some degree in the "improved" Absolute Zero design. I have not compared the two speakers so I cannot say for sure, of course.
Making "improvements" sometimes involves making sacrifices, too.
Edits: 08/10/14 08/10/14
i had no issues with the bass (extremely limited as it is) through the entire midrange, but above 5,000Hz or so, superzero tweeters are just too low resolution and sluggish. a good aluminum or titanium dome will runn circles around superzero heavy cloth treated domes. even mission and celestion soft domes are better.
if NHT wants to sell me superzeros ever again, they'll have to get rid of those tweeters. i'd buy a pair with the original woofers and crossovers if they only swapped them for dayton's (MB quart) titanium tweeters which are only $16 each retail and have a ton more speed and resolution with a slightly more forgiving sound than aluminum. a planar or folded ribbon would be even better and worth another $100 to me
If it's ported, it's distorted.
The Superzeros are just a bit too bass shy, IMO. Flat bass response barely makes it to the 100 hz. mark. Back in the vinyl days bass was stereophonic down to 100 hz. or so, but on modern recordings bass is stereophonic down to about 80 hz. This means that if you want deep bass response that is both flat and fully stereophonic when using a pair of Superzeros, you really need dual subwoofers. You'll also want to keep each subwoofer very close to it's Superzero partner, for the best stereo separation and bass integration.Standmount minimonitors are usually designed to stay fairly flat down to 80 hz. nowadays. You might pay more, initially, for gutsier monitors but you can save money in the end by only having to buy one subwoofer. Two subwoofers are great but it's nice when you don't really NEED to buy two of them.
Edits: 08/08/14
rolloff doesn't really bother me, especially in an apartment living situation. the bass that is there in superzeros is super fast and clear. i don't need to feel bass, just hear it clearly. a larger cabinet would help with the bass output, or 5 1/4" woofers would help a lot too.
my problem with superzeros was only their sluggish detail obscuring tweeters that are still unresolving even with extra clinical sounding panasonic class D.
i don't plan on ever getting another pair until they upgrade the tweeters. if someone else made an equivalent speaker with drivers as good as my energy RC-10s, i'd get those.
i have no problem with bass. if i need it, i have a pair of 12" sealed 2 ways i built with dayton titanium tweeters, a paradigm crossover and a 500w class D plate amp. bass extension just isn't a priority with me. to me, an 8" sealed woofer is ideal.
BTW. i was amazed at just how hifi and detailed the 12" "party speakers" i built sound. they have faster midrange than i thought possible, but because the tweeters are a few dB less efficient, they sound forward in the mids, but very coherent from the mids on down with the slightest "stutter" coloration in the vocal range at low listening levels. at high volumes though, they stomp DJ speakers in every way.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
.
NT
Those are all great speakers, but he's looking for "preferably under $1000" contenders. He might be able to buy some of those used for under $1000, I guess.
Edits: 08/06/14
i'm familiar with LS3/5A speakers and read a 3 way shootout with them somewhere that pointed out limitations that put me off to those models. for that price range, i'd get either an ATC SCM 7 (5") or 11 (6") as all the reviews i've read praise them for their lack of coloration.
i'm still trying to find out if role kayaks use the same hideous 1/2" MDF that put me off to my celestion ditton 100s, mission M-71s and energy RC-10s.
it seems that for affordable acoustic suspension minimonitors, you either have to put up with lousy cabinets as with the 3 models i just mentioned, or inferior drivers that either lack resolution as with my NHT superzeros or have aluminum resonances as with their classic 3s which otherwise sound amazing for speed, imaging, detail and unboxy sound. NHT makes good boxes, but uses weak drivers.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
I am being a nit picker here but a speaker without a port is called closed box or infinite baffle and it probably is NOT acoustic suspension. The term acoustic suspension is probably associated with non-ported speakers because if companies like Acoustic Research and KLH and Advent that ruled the market in the 60s and part of the 70s. They were closed boxes AND they were also acoustic suspension. Not all closed boxes are acoustic suspension. For example the old Bozaks were not. Today the few non-ported speakers are probably not acoustic suspension. I doubt the ATCs, a superb speaker by the way, is acoustic suspension.
Still the best closed box has superior transient response compared to the best ported box simply because of slower roll off(and the laws of physics). But a good ported one can be better than a not so good closed one.
Poor Edgar Vilchur, a good man and brilliant designer, along with Henry Kloss, etc. must be rolling in their graves when they hear how abused the term acoustic suspension has become.
that's one of the things that's annoying about sealed speakers, there's no standard term that all manufacturers use.
infinite baffle is a misnomer too as a "true infinite baffle" speaker is soffit mounted with an entire room for it's internal volume.
i've always liked the term acoustic suspension because it's descriptive of the "air spring" tight sound that i like so much about them, especially with smaller faster drivers.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
You are correct about infinite baffle but it is accepted as the same thing as closed box and has been for decades. But acoustic suspension is a special subset of closed box that has a technical definition and it should not be used as a synonym for closed box(or infinite baffle).
the only proper term then would be sealed as both acoustic suspension and infinite baffle are specific subsets of sealed/closed box.
i doubt i'll stop using the term though. i've been using it since i started reading audio magazines in the 80s until i learned the physics behind why i liked those $120 infinitys more than $1,000+ floorstanders
If it's ported, it's distorted.
It's the reverse. Acoustic suspension is sealed with very floppy suspension.The problem is reviewers don't know what acoustic suspension is. And that's not the only things they seem not to understand. Part of that is because while acoustic suspension ruled the 60s and was still important in the early 70s it died after that. You can blame Thiell/Small who described how to make ported boxes that didn't boom like the old ones. It's hard to resist a deeper 3 Db down point and/or a couple of Db more efficiency just by adding a hole in a box especially when a little boom sells better than tight bass.
In audio infinite baffle is the same as closed box. But, you're, correct that it is a poor term since it implies something it certainly is not.
Edits: 08/08/14
that's why i always use the term. it's just what i learned.
the port thing is defintely good for any company's bottom line. MOST listeners will buy whatever speaker sounds louder in a showroom.
me? i've always been drawn by whatever has the absolute least distortion. to my ear, those little infinity RS speakers i posted an image of were the first time i heard any speaker with low distortion bass. it was the quality that blew me away along with the really precise image they threw.
that's when i decided big expensive speakers, especially ported, were bogus.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
You might do well to check out The Rock professional monitor from Unity Audio. Though I have not yet heard them personally, I've read many reviews on the pro sites, and all have been raves. In particular, I would direct you to the review on TNT, a website for audiophiles.
TNT's major domo owns a pair of sE Munro 150s (the Eggs), which also received the highest praise from pro audio reviewers. The Eggs and Rocks cost the same.
One of the major differences between the Eggs and the Rocks are that the former are ported, and the latter are sealed. TNT's reviewer doesn't mince words in expressing his strong preference for the Rocks in every area of performance, but was perhaps most impressed by the difference in the bass, the superiority of which he attributes to the Rock's sealed design. As he did in his earlier review of the Eggs, he concludes that the Rocks are the best speakers he has ever heard in his home, and bought them.
At $2,500 a pair, they ain't cheap. But when you factor in that the price includes four channels of carefully optimized amplification and a highly sophisticated active crossover, the price is way south of ATC territory.
i'm one step ahead of you. i've already read reviews for them and am put off by a few things
- they're expensive at $2,000+, but i do like the sound (figuratively0 of their folded ribbon tweeters that i bet are super fast
- they're powered monitors which would require buying a pre-amp and as such can't be upgraded down the road. before stopping back here, i tried to see if they offered a cheaper passive version.
- they're very imaging and positioning fussy which make them sound overpriced to me. a good minimonitor should excel at imaging. imaging is one of my highest priorities in music and it was hearing a talking heads album throwing a small, but very precise image on infinity minis that also had lightning fast uncolored if rolled off bass that turned me into an audiophile.
for the $2,000 price of "the rock", ATC's SCM 11s sound more appealing to me as they're passive and universally praised for their resolution. those are my "dream" speakers, though i'm still trying to find out about role kayak MDF thickness. to me, it's unforgiveable to use anything less than 3/4" MDF on any speaker over $300. in that regard, superzeros are still the best i've owned even if mission, celestion and especially energy spank them for resolution and extension.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
As you may be aware, Unity makes a smaller, less expensive model called the Pebble. It uses a dome in place of the air motion transformer in concert with a smaller woofer.
But you have made it plain that you do not resonate with the concept of active speakers. The reasons you give are the very ones that are often cited when the industry attempts to explain why active speakers, which have almost completely displaced passive models in the studio – all of ATC's professional models are now active – have never caught on with audiophiles. A chacon son goût.
sure, there are potential benefits to using internal amplification, especially bi-amping and tri-amping active speakers, but you're always going to be stuck with whatever amplification is being used. i like the idea of modular systems because you can always keep upgrading every part of your system as finances allow.
amplification makes a huge difference. i hated the "muffled wet blanket" sound of my NHT superzeros on NAD and only really started liking them on my ruthlessly revealing panasonic class D receiver, but THAT receiver proved almost too clinical for my super revealing energy RC-10s that might have gotten along better with the softer sounding NAD. i was amazed at how much more liquid they sounded on cambridge audio DAC and receiver.
some day, i might try tube amplification or some high end amp when i can afford one. an active speaker is a closed system that can't be upgraded.
regarding ATC SCM 7 & 11 speakers, those are passive.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
If its speed and accuracy you want in a mini monitor then you can do no better than these little gems with a matching TR1 or TR3 sub.
Gallo Stada mk2.
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
ah, yes... anthony gallo speakers. they used to be reviewer darlings in the past, but i was never impressed at the original single driver models that had no tweeters. i REALLY crave tweeters that can make metallic percussion ping hard. even soft domes can fall short on that to my ears and no tweeter at all has to be even worse. i'll have to look into the model you posted. i've never read a review for those.
thanks for the heads up.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
The Strada and the 3.5 from Gallo Acoustics are certainly not tweeter-less.
If anything the cylindrical 300 degree tweeter is the star of the show and have nothing to do with the "orbs" of yore.
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
i'm talking about gallos ORIGINAL designs which only used 1 driver and not their upgraded speakers. they came out sometime around the late 90s and their "orb" speakers got rave reviews i just didn't trust because the original orbs didn't have tweeters.
stradas are an entirely different animal for sure, and d'appolito designs tend to excel at imaging. well... the original orbs were probably super precise in the imaging department as true diffraction free point sources within the limits of their frequency response and treble resolution.
the original orbs? no thanks
stradas? hmmm... i gotta check those out for sure.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
if anyone's interested in possibly winning a $10,000 gallo system, they're having a contest right now at their website
http://www.roundsound.com/?cid=ppc
If it's ported, it's distorted.
i'm familiar with gallo from their original tweeterless orbs that used to get rave reviews but dismissed them as gimicky and likely to be lacking in HF resolution without tweeters. the new strada 2 minis and 3.5 full ways seem to be resolution champs with comparisons to electrostatics. i just wish their were more reviews. 6moons reviews annoy me as they can't be bothered to talk about sound or draw conclusions in a single group of paragraphs forcing you to read a bunch of uninteresting crap to have to glean details about sound in little snippets, but skimming their review they seemed impressed and this review at hometheaterhifi seems very favorable
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/bookshelf-speakers/bookshelf-speakers/anthony-gallo-acoustics-reference-strada-loudspeaker-and-tr3-subwoofer/page-5-conclusions-about-the-gallo-acoustics-strada-loudspeakers-and-tr-3-subwoofer.html
as there really aren't too many reviews to compare though, i'd have to find a shop where i can listen for myself, but it's possible that i might get a pair of strada 2s when i start rebuilding my system if they live up to the hype. after getting burned by mission and energy cabinet resonances in favorably reviewed speakers though, i only take reviews as a starting point.
thanks again for the heads up
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Well not really mini n ignored by 'philes but check out Sonance 622c: 14 inch square on side and 8 inch wide. sealed 1inch thick cabs. not super high res but does nothing wrong: bout$500 pr.
For bigger budget ($2k), Ryan R 610. Positive Feedback at Newport show says one of the best regardless of price. Ported but out the rear.
Of course YMMV n FWIW
WOW! A $500 SPEAKER WITH 1" MDF/particle board sandwich?! now THERE'S a speaker that's not going to be ruined by boxy resonances. awesome find on those! with 6 1/2" (my preference would be 5 1/4" followed by 4 1/2") woofers they shoul have great bass extension and hopefully their tweeters can't be any less revealing than NHT superzero.
to my eye, they don't look shabby either. i'll definitely have to keep my eyes on those. $500 is much closer to the price i'd like to spend as i also want to upgrade my amplification and get a nice DAC.
i would THINK if sonance is willing to make 1" sandwich cabinets, they're serious about sound quality. as the old saying goes... "most of the money goes into the cabinets"
very nice find there!
thanks for sharing that info.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Not 1 inch mdf: 1/2 inch layered w1/2 inch particle board. acts like constrained layer. front baffle is all mdf though.
right. i said sandwich in my reply. there's nothing wrong with using 1/2" cheap particle board if that's bonded to 1/2" MDF. that's easily more massive than standard 3/4" MDF used in most premium speakers, and i'd tend to believe sonnance's claims about improved damping by using 2 different materials as each probably has slightly different resonance modes. that's why dynamat got so rich selling their iron on material to car audio enthusiasts.
1" sandwich is clearly beefy and far superior to just 1/2" MDF unless you live in the bizarro universe. LOL
If it's ported, it's distorted.
The smallest speakers I know with fast, relatively deep bass were the Sequerra Met 7 Mk IIs. I'd guess they were about 8" wide. Their bass was very punchy and astonishingly deep, though not very smooth - there was something of "now you hear it... now you don't" thing going on. So the Sequerras broke the size-vs-bass relationship somewhat, but at a cost.
For a line of highly resolving *and* musical speakers with tight fast bottom end, the original Brauns (and U.S. licensed A/D/S versions) are hard to beat. But with them, bass response extends deeper only as the boxes get bigger. The tiny and delightful L300 is very resolving and musical from about 100 Hz on up. Their full-size L710 goes all the way down, as did the internally tri-amped LV-1020, but they're big.
I'm generally with you on the ported issue, but there are some pretty good ported designs, at least with bigger speakers. The ProAC Studio 100s are really good on *almost* everything. The tri-amped ported Genelec S-30, long out of production, had maybe the best bass I've ever heard. Fast deep bass with no bump ever, highly resolving *and* musical mids and highs. But they didn't go loud at all, were strictly near-fields, and they were pretty big, ugly, and expensive. But they made your ears smile. (I know an engineer with a collection of Grammys who keeps two pair working, so if one of the six amplifiers misbehaves he can swap in the spares with no downtime.)
I'm afraid it's true, at least with bass response: size matters. And doing the extremes well is always expensive. If you want excellent extended response in a smallish package, get a pair of Sennheiser HD800s, and put a really good amplifier on them.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
+1 for the L300. I bought my pair in 1980 and while there may be better out there, these still are one of the most satisfying I have ever heard correct a small speaker.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
bass extension just isn't a big priority with me. my 5 1/2" energy RC-10s had all the bass i need to be happy because i could hear it clearly because of the smaller driver and air spring punch. in fact, truly deep bass gives me a headache.
it's true that a GOOD ported speaker like B&W or paradigm doesn't sound terribl;e, but to my ears, acoustic suspension, especially with smaller drivers is always better. the only thing that thumps faster are planars. i'd use maggies as SUBWOOFERS despite their rolloff.
as to vintage speakers, if i were to get a pair, i think i would go for the boston acoustics mini towers that had 2 x 8" woofers, a 3 1/2" midrange and soft dome tweeters. i loved the sound of those once i learned that i'm a diehard sealed box fanatic. if not those, i'd get infinitys with their poly soft domes and emit tweeters, but i'm pretty sure they always used foam surrounds back when they still made acoustic suspension.
i've NEVER seen a pair of their awesome, in theory, modulus 5 1/2"/emit two ways for sale. they got a nice rave review i bought a copy of audio mag, i think, to read about them in as their cheap 2 ways are what turned me into an audiophile
http://galleryplus.ebayimg.com/ws/web/280863616850_1_0_1/1000x1000.jpg
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Role Audio specializes in sealed speakers with compact dimensions (not all of their speakers are sealed designs but the three listed above are sealed and are their most popular models). They have gotten some rave reviews so far and, despite being made in the USA using eco-friendly construction, are very reasonably priced.The Skiff and the Kayak monitors are great desktop or "bookshelf" speakers. The Discovery monitors are bigger and might sound a their best on dedicated stands.
Edits: 08/05/14 08/06/14
i've read a few reviews for the kayaks and am interested in them. one reviewer even liked them better than LS3/5A clones, but i'm troubled by the fact that they're a subsidiary of NSM which is SUPPOSED to be their "high end" line, but their model 10S uses totally unacceptable 1/2" MDF.
if kayaks use 1/2" MDF too, i'd put my former energy RC-10s with their ports plugged up against them any day. those speakers had awesome 5 1/2" kevlar woofers with aluminum phase plugs and the new standing waves reducing notches in their surrounds and a truly amazing aluminum dome tweeter with amazing speed and detail without a trace of aluminum signature i was ever able to detect. if only the had beefier cabinets, they'd run toe to toe with more expensive B&W and paradigms.
until i know that role doesn't use 1/2" MDF too, i'm leery of them. i emailed them before coming here to inquire about that. if they do use 3/4" MDF (NOT "green") then i'll take them more seriously.
right now, the $500 sonnance 622s thatr use 1" cabinets are really impressing me as potentially better than superzeros if only theyu use better tweeters.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
If these are closed box why do the pictures have a hole in the front panel.
Look again...Some of the speakers are ported and you can see the "holes" in their photos. The Skiff, Kayak, and Discovery speakers are the sealed ones.
Edits: 08/06/14
.
i really worry that the kayaks suffer from the same 1/2" MDF syndrome that my well reviewed mission M71s and energy RC-10s did because their parent company, NSM uses 1/2" MDF in a fairly expensive speaker
If it's ported, it's distorted.
i found out that the kayaks do in fact have 1/2" MDF cabinets in an email from them trying to sell that as acceptable because of internal bracing.
it's NOT acceptable to me, and i'm sure why there was a mention of box sound from them in stereo mojos mini shootout
If it's ported, it's distorted.
And ask if there is a dealer who can provide a pair of SCM7s for in-home demo.
They are small and not hugely expensive; it is not as though you are asking for in-home demo of Wilson Audio Alexias.
Attached is a link to my coverage of the SCM7. Importer info is there. The 7 is about 30% smaller than the 11 and costs in the US $1499/pair in Cherry or Black Ash veneer. As you can see, it is a very handsome speaker, and still made in England.
jm
i really would like to get SCM 7s or 11s, but at $1,500-$2,500, they're a little more than i'd like to spend, but the model 11s have nothing but rave reviews for their giant killing lack of distortion.
i'm just starting to rebuild my system and am looking to add a schiit gugnir $750 DAC once i start saving up too, so right now, the $500 sonnance 622c 2 ways with 1" thick cabinets is sounding like a potential buy and $1,000 gallo strada 2s are sounding interesting 2.
if my finances were up to it, i'd probably get a pair of 11s even if they have a little less midrange clarity and image specificity than their little brothers and use them as full range speakers without subs. the only "downside" i've read in many glowing reviews is that they can be "too honest" revealing warts in recordings and equipment. that's a good thing to me. that's resolution and freedom of distortion. that's what i loved about my energy RC-10s except for the box resonance that drove me nuts.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
What are you on boy?
i'm on a mission, no pun intended as i wasn't impressed with my former mission speakers.
If it's ported, it's distorted.
Seek professional help.
"The problem with quotes from the internet is that many of them are just made up."
-Abraham Lincoln
you must not be a professional then
If it's ported, it's distorted.
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