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Needing to continue the downsizing of my stereo, I'm looking for a small stand mounted speaker that will excel in a small room [12 x 10] and work well with a 40 watt solid state amp. Budget is 2K. I like what I'm hearing about the KEF LS50 but believe they would want more power than my 40 WPC amp could give them. ProAc Tablette might fit the bill? I listen to classical, jazz, acoustic, things of that nature. Nothing too loud or bombastic. I'm getting older and enjoy music for relaxing, not to get pumped up. Currently listening to Monitor Audio Silver 6 floorstanders. I love them and think they are wonderful speakers. Just a bit larger then what I want. Can I equal or exceed the MA's in a smaller bookshelf around the 2K mark? Any suggestions on what I should look into would be very much appreciated.
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Some other thoughts - Sjofn Clue, Neat Acoustics Iota and Golden Ear Aon2.
I would at least check these out and audition them. But I notice that at 84 db SPL the PM1 are not very efficient. That amp might not drive them well. The Sf Venere 2.0 is 88 db SPL.
After reading all the raves about the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR, my imagination got the better of me so I bought a pair. I can only say that they are "listenable" and high value for the small price you pay. They should not be considered main speakers in an audiophile set up, unless the audiophile has severe budget constraints (and needs a serviceable pair of speakers while saving up for something better.)I have also heard the Harbeth P3ESR and KEF LS-50, speakers, each several times.
The Harbeth and KEF models are far, far better speakers than the Pioneer in terms of detail, imaging, openness and clarity with vocals. Of course, they are being 23 and 15 times more expensive than the Pioneer.
Edits: 08/04/14
B&W 804/805 models.
AR LST or LST II
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
This is Sonist's latest model.It's a 91 db efficient, medium-sized standmount. Ribbon tweets. Notably, the solid wood cabinets and drivers are made in the USA. I was able to view them at the factory last month and I can tell you that they look very sweet indeed. Although I did not hear them, I am told that bass output is exceptional for a speaker this size. I would expect them to share the Sonist "house sound", however...
When I auditioned Sonist's flagship (Concerto 4) at the factory/showroom in Riggins, Idaho I was very impressed with them. I posted a review in the High-Efficiency Speaker forum.
Edits: 08/01/14
Totem has several offerings that might fit the bill. Ive had the Dreamcatchers and Mites. The build quality is superb and they filled my smallish room much better than expected. Good luck!
I'd recommend to consider the Epos line of British speakers. I have the Epos Elan 10 ($1k) in one room, and Epos M5 (prior model) in another. Both relatively small enclosures that fit well in smaller rooms, but with expansive, precise sound.
Robert Reina (Stereophile) recommends this company for the high audio quality relative to value, especially for detail-oriented listening such as classical music or jazz.
Otherwise, I auditioned the KEF LS50 recently and was equally impressed, if not blown away.
Edgar, Jimmiecj is right. Theres so much buzz about the little Pioneer speakers at Best Buy for under 100 bucks, when on sale. In the brand new Stereophile Robert Reina has the latest review. If your on a budget like you said,2k, you could free up 1900 bucks for all sorts of other audio stuff. If you want some other oppinions of people who bought them go to Audio Circle where there are an endless reports of consumers that purchased them. Andrew Jones of TAD speakers designed them for Pioneer. I think Frank VanAlStein started the post,and he loves them.....Mark Korda
Thought of one more suggestion. Stirling LS3/6 is a BBC Monitor, 3 way with a front firing port. A not too small bookshelf, price $2200.
I wonder how you are gonna audition all these wonderful speakers suggested below.
Good luck.
Bill
Bill,
Can you really get the LS3/6s for $2200? The TAS review showed a list price of $4095. THANKS.
-Bob
My mistake. Thanks for pointing it out.
I think it was some wishful thinking on my part! Perhaps the extra Single Malt.
Cheers
Bill
You kind of got my hopes up a bit, Bill!
-Bob
11, I found out what happened. I saw the price in British pounds as 2200. Perhaps if we were living in UK, we would be enjoying the LS3/6. Did that make any sense. Only had a Stella.
Cheers
Bill
In my 20 plus years in this hobby, these are the best I have owned. I have them in a 12x12 room driven by a 3 WPC Line Magnetic mini 218 and listen for hours. Very realistic in their sound with no cross over as I recall. Fit and finish is top shelf. US Distributor sells direct on Audiogon.I also use a 40 WPC CityPulse hybrid which sounds great with my squeeze box.
Art
I second the Reference 3A mm de capo recommendation. Love mine!
But not having heard the Dulcet I can only recommend the MM de Capo i or the Royal Virtuoso (probably right at your $2K limit but worth it).
These are two of the best small(ish) speakers I have heard. I own an older version the Master Control MMC from the early 90s and they are super transparent and alive. High sensitivity as well (92 db). Good bass due to the 8 inch driver.
"I love them and think they are wonderful speakers."
You could just keep the Monitor Audio Silver 6 and push them against a wall for non-critical listening. You could also add a small compensation circuit that equalizes the against-the-wall bass gain.
A bookshelf speaker on a stand uses about the same floor space.
"Love is all you need" John Lennon
Benign load, fantastic in a small room. If you can get a chance to hear it, you'd be happy you did.
Opinions don't affect facts. But facts should affect opinions, and do, if you're rational..
- Ricky Gervais, 2012
Edits: 06/13/13
Just read a fine review of Revel Performa3 M106, a new speaker for $2000. Not very small.Plays "Lux Aeterna" theme very well. Also Metallica.
Good luck
Bill
Check out the little Pioneers. . Very nice, just don't let the price fool you.
That is so little real estate to work with, and unless it is a dedicated or quasi-dedicated "mini listening room" of sorts, where you can pull a speaker two feet or so from the wall behind it, I would go with a sealed speaker.
If you do have say the two feet of clearance I mentioned, and given your stated listening priorities, why not take the "Pepsi Challenge" and pick-up a pair of the ca $100-$130 Pioneer SP-BS22-LR bookshelf speakers? IF you haven't heard or heard of them, you perhaps might want to do so.
This if anything would give you some idea of what you can get in that room for little outlay, before _perhaps_ wasting money on so-called "bookshelf" speakers that really need anything but a bookshelf and instead dedicated stands and some space around them to deliver the goods. Play around with (or just keep) the Pioneers to see how placement affects things in your actual room and only then pay considerably more for the KEF, Harbeth, Spendor or other higher-end _and_ very well designed speakers for you particular application.
If you would like to get good sound but need to be closer to the wall (or: If I were you) why not "Buy vintage and get a season's ticket to the orchestra or band of your choice" as poster FSTEIN suggested? I have a pair of professionally refurbished (to original spec) Acoustic Research AR 4x's in a room just a couple of feet wider than yours, on stands a few inches from the wall behind them and they sound really good, and not just "for the money." And my listening priorities in that room mirror your own (as you stated).
I have found it far more difficult to get good sound in my smaller rooms than in my main room. And, in the end, I spent far less than I budgeted for and, most surprisingly, obtained completely enjoyable sound and reliability going with speakers I thought would, well, basically suck! It's true!
At least you have myriad options...
Harbeth might be a good choice. Excellent midrange. At about 2 grand.
Very nice little monitor with refinement. Very efficient as well.
Agreed. I have the new Dulcet BE's (with beryllium tweeters) in a second system and they are better in a number of areas than the Harbeth P3ESR-SE, which I also owned.
N/T
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
Buy vintage and get a season's ticket to the orchestra or band of your choice
I'm partial to my NOLA Boxers at $1,500. 40 watts is plenty, but they may prefer tubes to some degree (I'm using a Manley Stingray).
Being used to the bass of the MA Silver 6 floorstander, you will need a subwoofer with your bookshelf.
Cheers
Bill
The Kefs don't need a lot of power 40 watts would be more than enough - probably 10 watts in the room size you're talking about. But try it first (goes for everything). It's a reasonably solid choice for $1500. But ultimately you have to listen to find out what you like.
If you want some really nice sounding active monitors for $1500 a pair, check out Dynaudio BM6A MkII speakers . They are excellent speakers for the price and all you need is a preamp. They have a built-in 100-watt amplifier on the mid/bass driver and a 50-watt amplifier on the tweeter. I played these speakers for a couple of years with a subwoofer in my main system and they sounded great. They would be perfect for your size room.
Best regards,
John Elison
Proac would be nice...I'm partial to Merlin though, and there appears to be a pretty good deal on a pair of late model TSMs on Audiogon at the moment (under 2k). Most realistic sounding small monitor I've heard, and 40 watts would work fine.
I have the Harbeth 3ESR and you won't have any problem with a 40 watt amp. If you want a more relaxing type sound I recommend the Spendor 3/5R2,I had the Spendor's and they are a little laid back compared to the Harbeth's. Kind of set um and forget um!
I would recommend these speakers to anyone for comparison to all of the named speakers. The Intimidator by E.C.Speakers. If interested send a reply.
Have you considered the Mini Maggie system from Magnepan at $1,490?
I haven't heard the mini system myself, but I have owned Maggies in the past and really liked them.
They are very good at what they do.
On the mini-maggies are STEEP.
But a pair of MMG-W's or MC1's on the wall with a little $500 SVS sub (the smaller, sealed one, not the big ported one) would be one helluva system.
I've heard MMG-W's with a sub in a small room. Pretty nice. But you've got to have the right layout to attach them to the walls.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House
It would seem that the KEF LS50 would be a great choice....
-RW-
I had the LS50 for about a week. They were piercingly bright. Sometimes unbearable using NAD C375 and some lower power amps. Look for used Epos M5 or perhaps Spendor S5e small floor standers.
When I first got the LS50's, I was very very non plussed by them. While not piercingly bright, they sounded terribly metallic and not very musical at all in the high midrange and up and I was just dumbfounded by what I was hearing compared to what I'd read.
After a week, I was convinced that I was going to sell them, but no kidding, because of the sound I was hearing, I was thinking...I wonder if these are defective and if I can in good consciousness pass these things off. They were sounding very very mediocre at best.
I was going to be away for 24 hours, so I let them run pretty loud non stop while I was gone. At the time, they probably had about 30 hours on them already. When I returned and sat down to listen...first thing I did was raise them on the stands so the tweeter was right at ear level. It was about a 3 inch difference. I'm not sure if it was the new height or the 24 hour break in, but just like that, the speakers sounded completely different. I was astounded. To this day, I'm not sure if it was the height or break in that did it, but they sound nothing like they did when I first put them in the system and I'm very happy about that.
Last thing I will say about the LS50's is that compared to the many other bookshelf speakers I've had in my room, they are much more in need of room treatment and are very placement sensitive. They really seem to interact with my room more than other similar sized speakers.
It would be very easy to determine whether it was the height or the burn-in by simply lowering them three inches. My guess is that it was the burn-in that made them sound better.
I own the LS50's. They are nowhere near 'piercingly bright'.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House
I have never heard a "bright" KEF speaker. Perhaps these are the exceptions...
-RW-
Not even the consensus. No one else has said anything remotely like that.
Sorry! Should have gone with the consensus.
You hear what you hear. I would suggest that you try them with different gear in a different room. Your experience is not completely out of the norm for what it's worth - a Kef dealer who sells the things claims he gets them returned for being being bright and boxy. I don't find them bright really but if you use a bad recording and bad gear like a decent speaker should it will tell you about it.
There are plenty of other speakers and the Kef doesn't stick out to me as being any better than plenty of others in the price range. The ATC SCM 11 is less expensive and has more of a full range more open feel - perhaps one to consider. I prefer the Audio Note AX Two, Audio Space LS-3/5a, Roksan TR-5 that I recently reviewed as well.
I'd also try the new AMT Standmount and floorstanders from Martin Logan - at CAS they were really quite good and really quite affordable.
Another speaker to try in this price range would be the Legacy Audio Studio HD linked below - bigger sound ballsier more bass - more articulate treble more dynamics and retails I believe at $1600.
I was suggesting your so far outside the consensus judgement be disregarded.
Once the consensus was that the world was flat!
I know of a few recording engineers who tried LS50s in their studios, they described them as 'nasal' and 'boxy' sounding.
And of course they got to compare them to the actual live performance. Not sure how many reviewers can say that.
Measurement-wise the LS50 distortion is high to very high between 100 and 500Hz.
Usually they're hearing electric guitars (or sometimes something acoustic, like drums) in a studio environment.
And the poster didn't say "nasal," anyway.
nt
Obviously. As you knew.
"What was your point" in asking?
What exactly is the difference if the instrument recorded with a microphone is a violin, a trumpet or a guitar amp, a Hammond organ with Leslie, a pipe organ, a piano or a human voice?
How is one more valid than another being recorded in a particular room?
Which ones are more valid and why?
Needing an explanation of what was perfectly clear?
Nothing in your post was perfectly clear.
Without an explanation it is perfectly senseless and given the contents of your reply it would seem you are not able to answer my questions at all.
Thus I have to assume that you were merely repeating meaningless slogans without knowing what you are talking about.
Great marketing on these. Absolutely text-book! All around I have liked KEF. Especially their drivers sitting in my real LS3/5a. Warts and all! LOL
I loved KEF until they came out with the Uni-Q drivers in the 80's. Then I could not stand them. (The store I worked at sold them at the time.) I have not heard then newer ones yet, but...
Dave
Blame the NAD-KEF synergy or your room, I think.
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
There MUST be something wrong with your system if the KEF LS50s sound bright. I have heard the KEF LS50s in eight systems, and the treble is always smooth, extended, and realistic.
Very small: PMC DB1i. Nice monitor and good for jazz.
*
I've owned them. They are very good, right up there with the KEF and Harbeth.
I lean towards the Harbeth a bit, but it's close.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House
I've owned so many little (usually British) speakers I can't remember them all.I currently own Harbeth P3ESR's and LS50's. I've heard the Proac's many times, they are very nice but IMHO they really need a sub. For pretty much any music, even jazz. They just have no bottom at all.
The LS50's play louder and bigger than the Harbeths. The Harbeths, I think, work better in a smaller room such as yours. Either would work fine with 40wpc in a room your size.
If you want to save some money the Peachtree D4's are fantastic in a small room. A lot will depend on your amp. Is it a Kenwood 40wpc or HEED 40wpc? Huge difference there, maybe even bigger than the diff between speakers.
Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions.
"Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
-Dr. Greg House
Edits: 06/10/13
Same here. One of my favorite combos was my Harbeth HL-P3 with Harbeth Bass Extenders. Absolute favorite was Harbeth LS3/5a with Rogers AB1 bass extenders. Important to note they were bass extenders, not subwoofers. They used a single KEF B110 in ported enclosure. They sounded incredible. Tight, tight bass! Not deep, but fast and tight. There were various recommendations and tweaks on using the bass extenders. Harbeth called the front firing port configuration on their bass extender the "acoustic lens".
More generally, any LS3/5A monitor or copy of it (in your price range)will do well with 40-50W. Mine sound great with 10W SET and 12W Class A PP Triode.
All of these speakers present a concert-hall like sound stage, have a great "intimacy factor" and have beautifully integrated drivers - very smooth. Afficianados quibble about this and that difference between them, but the current KEF, Harbeth, Stirling Broadcast, Spendor versions are pretty much cut out of the same cloth sound-wise.
The KEF probably is the over-all winner.
I've never used a sub with my Stirling Broadcast LS3/5As and it still sounds fabulous to me down to about 50Hz (which is lower than it is speced for...but you still here it).
Observe, before you think. Think before you open your yap. Act on the basis of experience.
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