Speaker Asylum

• PEOPLE ARE CONFUSED - Belgarchi 18:46:32 08/09/12 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Eldragon@gmx.com on August 04, 2012 at 11:21:30

  - For a given woofer, F-3 is a lot lower in a bass-reflex enclosure compared to a closed one.
  - But a flat response requires an bass-reflex enclosure A LOT LARGER. In other words, the bass-reflex enclosure with woofer X should be compared to a closed enclosure with the same internal volume, but with woofer Y (with adequate Small-Thiel parameters)
  - The Bass-Reflex system has weaknesses - more ringing, steeper slope below F-3 - but also strengths, like smaller displacement of the cone around the tuning frequency.
  
  I couldn't say that one is better than the other.
  

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• RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" - hahax@verizon.net 20:35:59 08/08/12 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Eldragon@gmx.com on August 04, 2012 at 11:21:30

  I once asked Andrew Jones, the TAD designer why he chose a reflex loading over a closed box since he could have woofers built for him any way he wanted. He said that reflex gave him an extra octave and down to where the closed box went the rflex had similar bass quality even though a good closed box is ultimately tighter tha a good reflex all tings being equal.
  

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• My KLH 5s will deafen all that disbelieve. I think they're solid - tinear 08:52:12 08/08/12 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Eldragon@gmx.com on August 04, 2012 at 11:21:30

  (no pun intended, of course) contenders for most underrated mid-priced speakers. Room shaking, accurate bass, mellow and mellifluous extended highs.
  Ahhhh...
  

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  Edits: 08/08/12
• RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" - Bruce from DC 15:33:32 08/07/12 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Eldragon@gmx.com on August 04, 2012 at 11:21:30

  The real answer is that now computational tools are easily available to do the work associated with design of a ported speaker system that is critically damped. Sealed box systems which are critically damped are easier to design.
  
  Of course that doesn't prevent a designer from designing a ported system that has "flabby" bass, but the truth is the classic "acoustic suspension" sealed systems of the 1960s could have flabby bass, too, and often did.
  
  
  
  

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• bought my floor standing Hales for the great imaging and the deep tight bass (nt) - Spun1 15:54:10 08/05/12 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Eldragon@gmx.com on August 04, 2012 at 11:21:30

  
  

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• RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" - Don Bunce 12:42:59 08/05/12 (1)
  In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Eldragon@gmx.com on August 04, 2012 at 11:21:30

  Here is a explaination of the problems with sealed and bass reflex cabinets.Electrostatics too...
  
  :-)

  • http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0401/rolypol   (Open in New Window)

  
  

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  • Thanks: that's really funny -nt - Feanor 11:34:17 08/08/12 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Don Bunce on August 05, 2012 at 12:42:59

    nt
    
    

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    ... Keynes, Galbraith, Samuelson, Shiller, Reich, Stiglitz, Krugman, Singh
    
    

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• A critically dmaped reflex alignment can have low-enough q at resonance and still have better ext - Timbo in Oz 08:42:39 08/05/12 (2)
  In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Eldragon@gmx.com on August 04, 2012 at 11:21:30

  and sound very good indeed. Typically they'll be quazi-butterworth 3rd order (QB3) alignments. Positioned at unequal path-lengths these can use room-gain in the bass at least as effectively (musically) as a sealed enclosure.
  
  And Rb's don't all boom. IME boom is as much a room and positioning issue as is the enclosure type. Higher q alignments that are not well damped will boom, so a high q sealed enclosure will also boom.
  
  JA seems to have forgotten the Marantz LD50 stand mount which gave really good deep bass by having a room-gain matched reflex alignment.
  
  The one truly serious problem of Rb's as a genre - in my opinion - is signal below the pass-band of the high-pass slope. Causing cone bounce.
  
  CD's do have quite deep bass well below the cone-bounce point of many Rb stand-mounts.
  
  IME Rb's filtered actively at 2nd order or steeper below the unloaded cone point don't have any serious problems. Most of these have been assisted to up to an octave more bass. Even KEF's big (Rb / bandpass bass cabs) speakers traditionally had a big passive first-order bass blocking capacitor.
  
  Either approach deals effectively with cone excursion / system linearity, and IMD issues.
  
  Sealed boxes when driven hard in their high-pass stop-band will go into power limiting. This can be / is audible, no?
  
  In summary I think this 'issue' just isn't simple, not a yes/no, good/bad ... as usual 'it depends'.
  
  :-)!
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Note that a post in response is preferred.
  
  Warmest
  
  Timothy Bailey
  
  The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
  
  And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
  
  'Still not saluting.'
  
  
  

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  • No fair using science in a religious belief thread. - Edp 12:07:12 08/06/12 (1)
    In Reply to: RE: A critically dmaped reflex alignment can have low-enough q at resonance and still have better ext posted by Timbo in Oz on August 05, 2012 at 08:42:39

    Pick your religion from below and avoid science so you fit in.
    
    Single driver/no crossover is the way!
    Horn loaded drivers is the way!
    Mini-monitor is the way!
    Full range/multi-way direct radiator is the way!
    Large scale Plannar is the way!
    Sealed bas is the way!
    Back Horn loaded is the way!
    Transmission line is the way!
    Exceptions to the way is the way!
    

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    • Single-issue-itis gives me the shits / pisses me off - Timbo in Oz 15:44:46 08/06/12 (0)
      In Reply to: RE: No fair using science in a religious belief thread. posted by Edp on August 06, 2012 at 12:07:12

      Thanks.
      Note that a post in response is preferred.
      
      Warmest
      
      Timothy Bailey
      
      The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
      
      And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
      
      'Still not saluting.'
      
      
      

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• RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" - George S. Roland 08:08:12 08/05/12 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Eldragon@gmx.com on August 04, 2012 at 11:21:30

  Back in the days of monophonic systems, we tended to have very large, efficient speakers and low-power tube amps to drive them. When stereo came in and acoustic suspension speakers were developed, the trend seemed to be to abandon the large speaker systems in favor of more manageably-sized enclosures because two speakers were needed. Acoustic suspension speakers are less efficient so more power was developed in amps, and we began to see 200 watt/channel solid state stereo amps.
  Then, as I understand it, Thiele and Small developed a system of measuring loudspeaker driver characteristics that allowed speaker manufacturers to predict more accurately the performance of drivers in a specific enclosure, after which there seemed to be a growth in ported designs like KEFs 104aB that used a passive radiator or ducted port. These speakers were often more efficient than sealed box designs.
  All this being said, I wonder about John Atkinson's comment about no one ever going broke designing a one-note loudspeaker. I guess, to reverse his comment, did people go broke designing sealed box speakers that were not one-note bass reproducers? I understand that JA was partly joking, (I believe he uses PSB Synchronys which have several ports as his current references) but I wonder still if ported designs are so bad, what advantage is there in their use? Are they inherently cheaper to build?
  As a fan of ported speakers (I have enjoyed Klipsch Cornwalls, Altec Model 19s, PSB Stratus Golds, Thiel 3.6s and KEF 104aB's (these last two both with passive radiators). I think I know one-note bass when I hear it, and I think many of these designs were pretty successful in avoiding it. Careful positioning of the speaker can enhance or reduce one-note bass for certain.
  I considered that one advantage of ported designs was reduced cone excursion in these often more efficient designs and a reduction in distortion products. At least that was Paul Klipsch's contention: that distortion was inversely proportional to efficiency.
  
  Perhaps others would comment.
  
  Enjoy your music!
  
  George
  

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• It was JA, answering his own question after hearing ESP Concert Grands at my place - John Marks 16:48:05 08/04/12 (5)
  In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Eldragon@gmx.com on August 04, 2012 at 11:21:30

  See the linked-to sidebar.
  
  JM

  • JA's remark   (Open in New Window)

  
  

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  • RE: Great article - thanks! (nt - Eldragon@gmx.com 11:40:38 08/05/12 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: It was JA, answering his own question after hearing ESP Concert Grands at my place posted by John Marks on August 04, 2012 at 16:48:05

    nt
    “Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead"
    ― Charles Bukowski
    
    

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  • RE: It was JA, answering his own question after hearing ESP Concert Grands at my place - tad 21:48:49 08/04/12 (3)
    In Reply to: RE: It was JA, answering his own question after hearing ESP Concert Grands at my place posted by John Marks on August 04, 2012 at 16:48:05

    John,
    
    Thanks for posting JA's sidebar. Very helpful.
    
    I have an older pair of Proacs (Super Tablettes) which have a rear-facing port filled with drinking straws. Designer Stuart Tyler used the same approach on early versions of the Response 1 and 2, but later abandoned it on all of his speakers. What was Tyler trying to accomplish with the straws, and (if you have any idea) why did he change to a more convenetional open port design in later models?
    
    Thanks in advance.
    

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    • Just to clarify, it was my sidebar, in which I quoted JA - John Marks 07:28:26 08/05/12 (2)
      In Reply to: RE: It was JA, answering his own question after hearing ESP Concert Grands at my place posted by tad on August 04, 2012 at 21:48:49

      But that doesn't make much difference.
      
      ProAc: The cocktail stirrers/straws (I think they were narrower than regular drinking straws) were a clever idea. The cumulative thickness of the sidewalls of the stirrers did not reduce the width of the port by much, so in terms of frequency reinforcement the port worked pretty much as if the stirrers/straws were not there, but!
      
      The surface area of the insides of the straws was surprisingly large, and that much surface area presented friction resistance to the air moving in and out. I believe that the intent was to minimize "port noises" such as "chuffing," the characteristic sound as an organ pipe starts to speak. The straw approach can be regarded as an early "Variovent." Or not.
      
      Also, by dividing the airflow into a multitude of narrow columns, the "vertical" magnitude of any turbulence within the port would be sharply limited. However, I am not sure how much turbulence there would be in the port of a speaker with a "woofer" as small as the Tablette's.
      
      Why was this dropped? I have no idea. Perhaps the designer decided that developments such as radiusing the ends of ports, etc., gave an overall better result.
      
      JM
      

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      • RE: Just to clarify, it was my sidebar, in which I quoted JA - hahax@verizon.net 20:32:56 08/08/12 (0)
        In Reply to: RE: Just to clarify, it was my sidebar, in which I quoted JA posted by John Marks on August 05, 2012 at 07:28:26

        The straws do act like a lossy variovent but probably allow bass reflex action as you state. A true variovent is not a bass reflex design as exhibited by a single resonance peak not two as for reflex and also by bass roll off like a closed box not like a reflex.
        

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      • RE: Just to clarify, it was my sidebar, in which I quoted JA - tad 18:25:35 08/05/12 (0)
        In Reply to: RE: Just to clarify, it was my sidebar, in which I quoted JA posted by John Marks on August 05, 2012 at 07:28:26

        Thanks John. Sorry about the confusion over authorship. You're right about the size of the straws, definitely cocktail-sized. I appreciate the thoughtful, detailed reply.
        
        tad
        

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• I dunno, my Gallo Ref. 3.1s are "sealed"... - rlw 15:16:31 08/04/12 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Eldragon@gmx.com on August 04, 2012 at 11:21:30

  And they sound pretty good to me...
  
  -RW-
  -RW-
  
  

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• Stereophile has reviewed a few good ones during the past several years... - genungo 14:33:18 08/04/12 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Eldragon@gmx.com on August 04, 2012 at 11:21:30

  Magico comes to mind, but there are several others whose names I cannot recall. John Atkinson seems to favor them.
  

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• Too many PETA groups complaining about all the seals which had to be killed to make them. (nt) - 1973shovel 13:13:33 08/04/12 (1)
  In Reply to: RE: What was the great answer on the question: "why nobody makes sealed enclosure speakers anymore....?" posted by Eldragon@gmx.com on August 04, 2012 at 11:21:30

  
  

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  • Good one! Heh, heh...NT - rlw 15:14:01 08/04/12 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: Too many PETA groups complaining about all the seals which had to be killed to make them. (nt) posted by 1973shovel on August 04, 2012 at 13:13:33

    No text here...
    -RW-
    
    

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