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Does sending some frequencies to an active sub increase the watts available to the remaining speakers?
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The Driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit accelerating out of the S turn...
Follow Ups:
If used with an high-pass crossover on the main amplifier it will allow for more volume.
Yes, taking the low frequency component out from the main-speakers amp would result in lower peak voltages (especially in the case with electronic music or music with lots of bass and regular bass beats). As a result, you now have a higher clipping threshold - aka "more headroom".
But this assumes that the mid and/or high frequency sections are (a) up to the task of the additional output and (b) the amp does not clip due to the power dissipated in the midband at the higher level setting.
So yes, the speaker system could have an over all higher level capacity, but how much that capacity increases would vary from system to system. It also depends on how bass intensive the listeners musical choices were to begin with. A guy who plays house and trance and hip hop will see a bigger difference than a guy who plays quartet, guitar or vocal music. The latter guy will not likely see a substantial increase in how loud he can play his system, as he didn't have a vast amount of super low frequency information there to begin with.
Cheers,
Presto
is the physical protection of the satellite from large transients in the low frequencies. just adding a sub without the high pass filter would still allow the satellite to TRY to reproduce the low transient and result in too much woofer excursion. damage to the satellite is much more likely then.
...regards...tr
You read between the wrong lines! ;)
My theory there was assuming the hi-pass WOULD be used.
What my ramblings there are more concerned with is this:
When you get back X amount of gain from eliminating the lowbass/subsonic component from the satellites, how much of that gain can you *actually* use when what you are replacing the low/sub signal with is additional midbass/mids/highs.
This is apples nd oranges stuff. Bass "beats", pulses, surges etc. are typically more cyclic than higher up in frequency. It gets into the chicken egg part of amps - max gain versus thermal capacity. Basically, what will you run out of first.
That was what I was trying to get at.
Cheers,
Presto
than advice.
...regards...tr
My ramblings were based on the high-passed satellites.
The topic, as I understood it, was investigating how much "headroom" you spare up by high-passing the satellites and I was speculating on what would happen if you replaced "X" db of bass pulses with "X" db of "midbass and up" frequencies.
That's all it was! :P
than it needs to be. but by now you should be getting the idea now. it's hard to quantify what you are talking about but i am sure there are math guys out there that would be able to.
suffice it to say that if the satellites don't have to try to do the work of reproducing the lowest freqs, they are free to play a lot louder without strain or be in danger of damage.
...regards...tr
I think the better answer is maybe. The tweeter may not be up to the task of handling the extra power.
It depends on how much the mains were being pushed to begin with and relative power handling / xmax numbers between the various drivers. If your tweeters are lightweights, the extra volume one gets from high-passing could prove.... deadly!
I actually thought for the longest time that it was a no-brainer that cutting bass out of the mains would increase the overall main level achievable, but now I think the better answer is: it depends.
Cheers,
Presto
I heard of satellites with those multi speaker TV set-ups. They are like those tiny things they send up in the sky, but what are calling satellites on a 2.1 stereo?
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Nothing in Audio reproduction looks better than invisible....
that is the left and right speaker in a sub/sat speaker system. its been commonly used since that configuration has been utilized.
...regards...tr
Definition of: satellite speaker: Typically refers to a speaker in a home theater system that is placed behind or on the side of the listening area. See surround sound.http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,1237,t=satellite+speaker&i=60122,00.asp
Definition of: surround sound: An audio recording and playback system that uses five or more channels plus a subwoofer channel. Surround sound is used primarily for movies and games.
http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,1237,t=surround+sound&i=58197,00.asp
Satellite speaker: Small speakers generally used as surround speakers placed or mounted in various locations (hence the name "satellite") around a room for a home theater setup. Because they tend to have limited bass response, they're often designed to be used with a matching subwoofer.
http://www.crutchfield.com/Learn/learningcenter/home/speakers_glossary.html#S
Satellite speakers: Speakers used in surround-sound systems that are intended to be placed around a center channel speaker, as a part of a technique to recreate "three-dimensional" immersive sound; they tend to be smaller than the center speaker, and often contain audio to the left, right, and behind of the center channel.
http://dvd-b.com/Pages/HTGlossary.html
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Hide it~ nothing looks better in Audio gear, than invisible....
Edits: 08/03/12
I thought that satellite speakers were used in surround sound systems. I never heard of studio monitors referred to as satellites before. Where did you get that?
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Nothing in Audio reproduction looks better than invisible....
subwoofer-SATELLITE systems have been around for a LONG time. i don't know how you missed this terminology.
personally, i don't feel that making the speakers invisible is desirable. mostly its the women of the house that want that. mostly, when that is done, the sound is compromised to a noticeable degree.
...regards...tr
> the sound is compromised to a noticeable degree. <
Yes of course invisible is not possible without compromise. But the idea is that all of this stuff is not beautiful. Manufacturers need to miniaturize, camouflage, get components out of sight. Music needs to be heard, not seen. Components, wires, amps need to fall back into the background and disappear.
I can understand how speakers placed all around a room are like satellites surrounding a planet. But I cannot visualize two L/R stereo speakers shooting at your ears assuming the name, or image, of satellites. They do not fit the picture.
Satellite
ORIGIN mid 16th cent. (in the sense ‘follower, obsequious underling’): from French satellite or Latin satelles, satellit- ‘attendant.’ 1540s, "follower or attendant of a superior person," (14c.), "attendant,""full, enough" "to go" English follow, which is constructed of similar roots. Meaning "planet that revolves about a larger one" first attested 1660s, in reference to the moons of Jupiter,.. which was used in this sense 1610s by German astronomer Johannes Kepler (1571-1630). Galileo, who had discovered them, called them Sidera Medicća in honor of the Medici family. Meaning "man-made machinery orbiting the Earth" first recorded 1936 as theory, 1957 as fact. Meaning "country dependent and subservient to another" is recorded from 1800.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=satellite&allowed_in_frame=0
satellite |ˈsatlˌīt|
noun
1 (also artificial satellite )an artificial body placed in orbit around the earth or moon or another planet in order to collect information or for communication.
• [ as modifier ] transmitted by satellite; using or relating to satellite technology: satellite broadcasting.
• satellite television: a news service on satellite.
2 Astronomy a celestial body orbiting the earth or another planet.
3 [ usu. as modifier ] something that is separated from or on the periphery of something else but is nevertheless dependent on or controlled by it: satellite offices in London and New York.
• a small country or state politically or economically dependent on another.
4 Biology a portion of the DNA of a genome with repeating base sequences and of different density from the main sequence.
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Hide it~ nothing looks better in Audio gear, than invisible....
All of your posted definitions are not going to advance your argument. The fact is that three-piece (small L&R satellites + subwoofer) stereo speaker systems have been around for many years and predate the home theater surround systems that you reference in order to advance your argument. You just may not have been around long enough to remember them.
IIRC, it was Cambridge Soundworks (not the British company that we're familiar with today) that started hawking their small left and right satellite (and yes they referred to them as satellites) plus subwoofer three-piece systems in full page ads in magazines like Stereo Review as early as the late 1960's.
A quick Google search (L&R+subwoofer stereo speaker systems) will yield names like Altec Lansing, Logitech, Boston Accoustics, Cambridge, and Bose, among others who are marketing their 2.1 (satellite plus subwoofer) stereo speaker systems at the present time. They all are using the term satellites when referencing their L&R speakers.
A satellite is an object which has been placed into orbit. A follower, supporter, lackey, parasite, sycophant, flunky. Satellite speakers revolve around (surround), stereo systems. They are not the stereo system itself.
Just because some foreign marketing type misused the term does not change what a satellite is. When you take the frivolous speakers away you still have a fully functioning stereo with nothing surrounding it. All the rest of us know what a satellite is. This may be why no-one else has misused, that is not understand what a satellite is anywhere in this thread.
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Hide it~ nothing looks better in Audio gear, than invisible....
I consider the source.
~~~
Hide it~ nothing looks better in Audio gear, than invisible....
Don't you have anything better to do than to waste your time searching for lame definitions in hope that they will help you to defend a bad position?
You are a compulsive right fighter and I feel sorry for you. You are one sick puppy.
In case you haven't noticed it nobody gives a flying fuck! You're considered a joke.
i wonder if he's related to Sudzy. navel gazing really hits the nail on the head.
...regards...tr
I've decided Sumflow's navel gazing prose is but flimsy cover for his real passion; posting pictures.
In either case wouldn't they would have more headroom available weather it was used or not?
~~~
The Driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit accelerating out of the S turn...
We've reduced the low frequency component of the signal. The peak voltage will go down, as will the RMS signal voltage. So in a way, by reducing the lowest frequencies, you could say we've also reduced the dynamic range of the SIGNAL. But we didn't change anything with the amp - it's max gain before clipping would remain the same.
So I guess if you reduce the RMS voltage of the signal with a highpass filter you have less "range" between the signal peaks and the RMS value. So if you reduce the peak voltage by 3db by removing bass signals, then you have 3db more to play with without any risk of clipping. BUT... with the bass removed you now have a smaller dynamic range of the amplified signal - aka - the signal will have a higher average POWER.
So, even though you might not clip the amp you might use up the amps thermal capacity quicker if you replace 3db worth of momentary bass signal with 3db worth of continuous "bass, midbass, mid and high" signal.
I think it would depend on the type of music, actually.
If you're talking electronic music with "bass beats" (current surges following voltage peaks) then I think you'd be looking at a more dramatic increase of average power dissipated when you use the "freed up headroom" for running only the full range signal.
Let me post some shots of waveforms for easier analysis. Woot woot.
Cheers,
Presto
The issue is reduced distortion from your main speakers by not asking them to reproduce the lowest frequencies. This will create two positive effects: (1) preserve spectral balance as you play louder, because smaller speakers reproduce an increasing percentage of harmonics (typically 2nd harmonic) was you ask them to reproduce bass frequencies louder and louder. For example, 50 Hz is a bass frequency well within the range of a bass guitar or a string bass. The instrument does not produce a pure 50 Hz tone, but a 50 Hz tone and a series of harmonics (100 hz, etc) at lesser volumes than the fundamental. The mix of fundamentals and harmonics is what gives the instrument its characteristic sound. For example, the typically greater presence of the fundamental tone makes a string bass sound different from a bass guitar reproducing the same note. If you drive the speaker into distortion, it will change the ratio of fundamental tones to harmonics from what is in the recording, making the instrument being reproduced sound different. You won't hear this as "distortion" but the timbre of the instrument will have been changed. The second positive effect is that by removing the bass drive from the main speaker, it will have a somewhat higher loudness capability (but only about 3 db).
The issue of volume with a music signal playback is ALWAYS a voltage or current clipping issue. With most Amplifiers and speaker loads and music signal Current clipping is not as much a concern. Splitting the signal between LP and HP sections BEFORE the amplifiers always improves headroom - as little as a fraction of a dB as much as 6dB.
Clipping an Amplifier during music playback is not as audible as you might think and sometimes comes across as "better" sounding - depending on the amplifier - signal and their characteristics.
Three most important things in Audio reproduction: Keep the noise levels low, the power high and the room diffuse.
In general would you say the less that we ask them to do, the better they can do what's left?
~~~
The Driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit accelerating out of the S turn...
if the content is bass heavy and is pushed, you will likely clip the bass amp first - which is less audible that if you clip the main amp.
Aren’t active speakers sized so that they are not likely to clip?
~~~
The Driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit accelerating out of the S turn...
They all can clip.
It depends on how hot the incoming signal is and although some have limiters built in most have merely a clip indicator trusting the operator to turn them down when need be.
Personally I've built enough headroom into mine so that windows rattle and things fall of shelves before the amps clip or the drivers scream for mercy.
However I do run a total of just over 900W per side.
a kilowatt or more, perhaps. The Infinity IRS bass towers were each powered by a 2 kW amp.
Using (2) -70-watt biamplified (45 watts LF, 25 watts HF) Studio Monitors, and one 100 watt powered subwoofer.
Subwoofer Crossover 60HZ-160HZ, Monitors low cut, flat, 80 or 100
Is (2) 70 watt and one 100 watt sub equal to (70w + 50w) = 120 watts per channel?
~~~
The Driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit accelerating out of the S turn...
With a 100hz cut it would be more like 200W.
Power goes with the square of the voltage, double the voltage and you have 4x the power.
It does also depend on where the frequency division takes place, the crossover slope, etc.
Thanks, with a 100 hz cut off, it will be more like 200 watts per side.
~~~
The Driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit accelerating out of the S turn...
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