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The other day I heard a system in a friend's house that had the most magical imaging, something my Quad Esl 57's can achieve only very rarely. He has Gallos 3.0's run by an Aesthetix preamp, and Atma-sphere amps (I have a Transcendent OTL). I can't get that sound out of my mind, and it was achieved on both his cd and vinyl sources and on just about every record and cd.
That system was far more "high end" than mine, but I'm pretty well convinced that it was the speakers creating that magical world.
Interestingly, in other regards, his system was, for me, inferior in tonality, warmth and bass, but I sure would love to have that other-worldly imaging in my room, at least as something to switch off with the Quads.
What are the really great, and somewhat affordable (anything under $1500. used), imaging speakers available, even monitor speakers?
Edits: 11/18/11 11/18/11Follow Ups:
Hate to say it, but very little beats out a Gallo on imaging. That tweeter of his is remarkable. The newest Gallo Classico Cl-2 is $1300 (I think). Worth checking out if you liked the sound.
-------
Find me at: http://parttimeaudiophile.com
Edits: 12/07/11
I think speaker placement and the size and shape of the room make the most difference in imaging and soundstage. The speakers have to be out from walls and a vaulted ceiling also helps tremendously. Unfortunately, when you place the speakers out into a room away from walls, bass performance suffers. Therefore, I prefer a satellite/subwoofer speaker system for best imaging along with full-range bass performance. Furthermore, I like my subwoofer against a wall behind my listening position so that it is no farther away from my head than the satellite speakers in front. The last three houses I've owned contained listening rooms especially selected for good imaging and soundstage, and it paid dividends. I am completely satisfied with my present system's imaging performance with it arranged diagonally in the room.
after a long hiatus, I was running a Jeff Rowland Consummate preamp to a Spectron digital amp to Gallo Nucleus Reference II loudspeakers...I thought that was a heck of a system.
I haven't heard the recent Gallo products.
Vbr,
Sam
The most important factor in getting 3D imaging is speaker placement in the room and room acoustics like treating reflection points. Yes speakers are very important too, but ranked third compared to placement and treatment. And speaker quality is important, but also so is selecting the right speaker design/type for the room and the amp.I'd take a $500 pair of decent speakers with same price point electronics that is placed perfectly in the room with bass traps in corners and minimal reflections over any other high end high priced system that is being constrained by a room/placement.
I can place my speakers (and even keep the room treatments in place) in many positions in my room and the imaging will be nonexistent, or I can place them in the ideal spot and all of a sudden the room is supercharged with dynamics and totally 3D crystal clear imaging.
I see you have a dedicated room. But quilts and blankets are not room treatment. You might be negatively impacting the sound. Try looking at proper products. Affordable? Try GIK Acoustics. And your room size seems pretty good. And if it's dedicated, I assume you don't have furniture beside or between speakers (that included not placing your rack between the speakers btw). Where are your speakers positioned in the room? And your listening position?
And your friend might not have room treatment or a dedicated room but he might have excellent (by design or luck) speaker and listening seat placement and that could be what you're hearing more than anything else.
Edits: 11/21/11 11/21/11
The speakers are about 4 feet from the back wall, but unfortunately the back wall is curved so the distances are uneven.
The components are on the floor and there is no furniture behind the speakers, so not much to interfere and create misguided waves.
I will check out some good acoustical materials and see what I find, and I have another friend who might be able to help with figuring out where to stop reflections.
And, yes, I thought that myself... maybe my friend just lucked out on the setup in his listening room...
Thanks again to all.
Haven't heard Gallos or Quad speakers, I can't comment on them.
However, I assume that the Gallos have more upper Extension than the Quads, which helps with the imaging.
Your Transcendent amp should not be at fault. I have a T16 and it's probably the best 3D imaging amp I have heard.
I've been using some old ACI Sapphire III speakers, which will disappear sonically no matter where you place them. Their imaging is superb. However, when I lived in Spain with tiled floors and plastered walls and a big window front behind the speakers, I lost a lot of that imaging, thou the sound was a lot more live sounding.
Fast forward to now. I now also have a pair of Hornshoppe Horns with the Super Tweeter. With the Horns the Super Tweeter is crossed over at around 35 khz.
Well, I borrowed the Super Tweeter to used them with my ACI Sapphire III, which are already very great with imaging.
Using the Super Tweeter with them and crossing them over around 25 khz or so opened up a total new window in detail and sound staging.
There is so much more detail and the somewhat 2 D image has grown into a big 3D image.
All I can say: It's a fun hobby and you never stop learning (and buying)
Lesleymorley
System synergy seems to be one of those elusive elements. Sources, preamp,and other electronics aside for only a moment ( every aspect of a systemis important), I wonder if perhaps what you are enjoying about your friends system is the direct radiation of the speakers. Where your Quads, highly respected of course, are emitting both front and back, maybe you have found a potential inclination for directly radiating dynamic transducers. I can say this has happened to me on a couple of occasions that I remeber well.
Feeling slighly under the weather I'll keep this shorter for now, but, like you, also own a Transcendent OTL, actually two, as well as an assortment of DHT triode SET amplifiers. We tried a classic 2a3 design I built years ago, and after about an hour I changed out to the T16 OTL. Wonderful. Warm yet detailed-- highly musical, perhaps not unlike your own experience.
We are presently using the amp with Klipsch la scalas. If you would like to try ypur amp with a pair of Klipsch Heresy speakers, I will send them to you. The combination with the TS OTL is outstanding IMO.
Regards,
erik....
Hi Erik. I am looking for the sound you describe with your Lascalas. I am presently finishing up a pair of CornScala's and would think those amps would work well as the CornScala's are only a couple db less efficient than the Lascala's. Any info on them would be appreciated. Happy Thanksgiving.
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
Pending Post by erik2a3 (A) on November 25, 2011 at 03:46:05
In Reply to: RE: Great imaging speakers posted by geezerrocket
Pending Post by erik2a3 (A) on November 25, 2011 at 03:41:50
In Reply to: RE: Great imaging speakers posted by geezerrocket
Hi, geezerocket
I know it's exciting to finish a new speaker project -- best of luck with that!
So, the Transcendent Sound OTL amplifiers are IMO ideally suited to high efficiency horns. Except for a few of the sealed and bass reflex systems I built a couple of decades ago (scary to see myself write that -- I don't know where the time has gone), Klpisch heritage and Lowther horn systems have been mainstays. I listen to lots of classical, jazz, and "fingerstyle" guitar music, and nothing can capture the timbre and real wood amd string quality like the crossoverless Lowther, whichmis also in the same range in terms of efficiency as La Scalas and Klipschorns. Moreover, the genremof music mentioned above, at least for me and how I listen, the Transcendent OTL amplifiers provide adequate output power, particulalrly with regard to the T16. The output of the SEOTL (single ended output transformerless) is significantly lower, but with big horns sounds magical. Truly the best amplifier I have, but requires some special needs in terms of the space where it's used. I have been building amplifiers for years, using mainly the more common big triodes- 2a3s and 300bs, as well as a couple of 45s, and while allmof them did, and on occasion still do, provide quite satisfactory performance, they all share one common attribute that the OTLs do not: output transformers, and it's the absence of those in the Transcendent amps that are laregly responsible for the kind of extended response (both high and low) that sound so special with our La Scalas and Klipschorns. Thr bass response from the sub 2 watt/channel SEOTL is astonishing in terms of contro and tunefulness with the corner loaded klipschorns -- for me. I also used the same amps bridged mono for twice the output power, and would say that for most listeners, this would be a very good way to run them. This pair was not my own, though. I listended to them during the post - build testing before sending them to the person that asked me to build them.
Lastly, I can't stress enough how important personal taste is in this hobby. While a few watts up to the T16 couple of handfulls is enough for me, some listeners might need more power. I know of someone who truly loved the sound of bridged SEOTs with his Klipschorns but found them ultimately not quite powerful enough. It's all highly subjective.
I also found, yet again, what a critical difference the room can make. It is actually quite remarkable. I moved our La scalas from the large and open living area downstairs up to the "listening room" where we have the Khorns, set them up to the sides of their taller siblings, and was immediately sort of jaw-droppingly impressed by that uncanny imgaing of these horn speakers. At about 18 feet apart on the long wall, the La Scalas put the solo acoustic guitar of Pat Metheny right in front of me in a way that was holographic....totally real and in-the-flesh. And this was from an amplifier under 5 watts. I don't need that much power, but some do. Downstairs in the big open space, the SEOTL sounded truly too small, but the room is terrible for imaging, highly reflective and reverberant: tile floors, no wass treatment other than a couple of paintings, which amount to flat reflective surfaces -- and imaging is all over the place....smeared in comparison to then upstairs location.
Happy holidays......hope this helps at least a little bit. :). Erik
Oops!
Apologies for that extra bit of info. At the top. I was having difficulty logging in and my copy and paste skills with this ipad need some work.
I wanted to add that listening to the La scalas in the very large downstairs area DID work well when listening in the very near field, essentially like a giant pair of headphones! It was cloase enough that the room became much less apart of the equation, but the imaging was not what it is in the more dedicated room with the Klipschorns -- seriously, the horns are capable of spookily real imaging and presence......but...again....horns are not for everyone. For me, the hair trigger sensitivity and almost startling (at times) dynamics makes for a very believable recreation of a live musical event -- that is, with the right recording (some are simply not good) and in the right room.
...I contemplate moving are brand new vinyl rig, a Clearaudio Performance SEP (fitted with a dynavector MC) upstairs at the risk of being in the same room as the TV. Thw sound is so much better there.
Geezerocket: listen to different kind of amps ifmyou can. Sometimes it takes a leap of faith, as it were, whichmis how I got on baord the high efficiency horn/low power amp boat.
Have a good day, erik
Wanted to mention, too, that as others have pointed out, the Gallo 3 is evidently able to image like crazy! I've read about them many times in the past, all reviewers responded to them very positively, and not just in terms of their great imaging ability. The design of the enclosures, not unlike some of the B & W designs, really lends itself to keeping diffraction and other cabinet-induced effects out of the sonic picture. At one point I considered selling our Klipschorns for the same Gallos mentioned above, and I haven't even heard them myself.
Speaking of the big Klipsch Heritage speakers, we have them over 20 feet apart in corners of our long wall, and they can plop a saxaphone or singer exactly in the middle front of the room, and do so in a way that is uncanny -- as if one had a center channel (which we do, since I do enjoy well-balanced surround sound music from time to time. Done right, it canbe extremely realistic as far as ambience and atmoshphere.........but that is off topic, entirely.
Erik
The design of the enclosures, not unlike some of the B & W designs, really lends itself to keeping diffraction and other cabinet-induced effects out of the sonic picture - I think this is very true, and I don't think it takes golden ears to hear it, anyone with a lifetime of owning a pair of ears will notice it...
Religion is the world's oldest profession
Here is my new system - and probably my last. These are headphones in **every** imaginable way, except they are decidedly not confined to the few inches between your ears. The precision, the seeming ease with which they retain their composure, the deep insight into every little passage, the intensely stable spatial separation, all those great headphone things. You really can't believe it when you sit between them - nobody can. When my Quads were still in the room and 10' away, when I played a mono song you would swear the sound was coming from the Quads (spatially I mean) - it was uncanny, and eerie. There was no hint any sound was coming from those bronze balls a mere 18" from your head.
My Quads are all gone now. I've owned old and new (courtesy kentaja) 57's and new 63's (also courtesy kentaja) for 25 years now. Never again - nearfield listening has changed my life, because imaging is my highest priority and when you hear these puppies nearfield with a rich sounding amp, the rest is good enough. The soundspace is absolutely not limited to the space between the gallo's, far from it. I suppose this is more about nearfield listening than it is about gallo vs Quad - but hearing the gallo's in the way I do now, I find it doubtful anything but a one way crossoverless "full range" (by that I mean I don't run a crossover before them) point source round steel enclosure could top it. They are astounding - and these aren't even the ti's (which I've have in my closet for weeks - can't bring myself to change speakers)
Try it - take the room out of the equation, take the massive stereo out of the equation (mine is hidden under my end table), and get headphone sound in a nice big intensely visible space, for a few hundred bucks. You want imaging? In spades, I live for it.
New username - "bronze-balls"!
Religion is the world's oldest profession
INteresting ... with the Gallos set up like that, do you get imaging like conventional wide-spaced nearfield monitors (say your Minuets set up ~6' from your ears and > 60 degrees apart in front of you)?
I use Triangle Tituses, ~6' from my ears, pointed at my head, and something like 100 degrees between them ... (plus a sub in the corner augmenting <50Hz bass).
I, too, am addicted to imaging and especially depth perception ...
Thanks for the post! Cool stuff ...
I think the better description is still - headphones, but bigger - much, much bigger. Have stopped experimenting really, but hard to imagine I can do much better. Will definitely add stereo subs to each side of the sofa at some point though...
Religion is the world's oldest profession
But is there a stereo image in 'front' of you? Sounds like there isn't.
I guess you get a lot of information, but doesn't sound like what I'm looking for ...
It is in front of you yes, in fact when my Quads were still in the room 10' away and a mono song came on, it sounded eerily like it was coming from the Quads even at that distance. I used to be an always eyes-closed listener, but now I stare right at it in front of me. But when it goes full on stereo, there's no mistaking it as being 10' away - you are surrounded by music, swirling it it sometimes. And that's with my Gallo's slightly behind me pointing about 1' in front of me - as you can see from the picture, probably not the most optimal but close. The day I first heard that was the day I knew I'd never settle for any less - seems like a lifetime ago now.
Religion is the world's oldest profession
Thanks for the 'suggestion'! I'll have to wait until my wife is away for 1/2 day or something tho, my 'experiments' drive her crazy!
Wow.. you should be a speaker salesman. Very well stated. I will be borrowing a pair of Morel sphere speakers and try them out.
(My room is small). But I got the same kind of imaging you talk about with both AN-K and AN-J speakers in the corners.
"You don't need to be a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Well, I have a pile of cash stacked up from all the stuff I've sold (3 pair of Quads!), and an AN dealer literally a few blocks away. However, recalling one review or comment from either TAS or Stereophile, while raving about the AN's he noted something to the effect that "if you expect your speakers to act as a honing device to zero on on every cufflink clattering, these are not the speakers for you" - to which I quickly concluded those are not the speakers for me given my priorities. The Gallo's do that in spades, that's a real trigger for me. Trying to get the same intimacy from a pair of speakers 5' or more away seems impossible now. But given that I have a leftover Quad II Classic Integrated and a pair of massive 300b/2A3 mono's, maybe I'll give AN's a try before they too disappear - I have corners, and the dealer will happily lend me. What stops me is the very idea of another massive stereo system - if not for the fact that AN's go in corners, it would be out of the question!I tried my Superzero's where the Gallo's are now (also have Silverline Minuets) and the separation between tweeter and woofer was immediately obvious - never really heard that before, so that lasted about 10 seconds. Haven't tried the Minuets - doubt I will for the same reason.
The closest I came to the sensation I get now was probably my 57's in University 25+ years ago, with all tube mint fisher receiver (all original fisher branded tubes), listening on the tube tuner to the university radio station (which was literally across the street). My 57's were so close that when I reclined my lazyboy I could not see the inside corners of the Quads due to armrests in the line of sight - room was about 10' square. That too was headphones! I remember many listening sessions like it was yesterday, and remember exactly how I felt when I heard it. I wouldn't trade what I have now for it, but if I had a spare room would still have it set up there for fun.
Religion is the world's oldest profession
Edits: 11/20/11
I have just auditioned the LD-10 monitors from ESS Labs. They use the Heil Air Motion Transformers with a front firing 10" driver and rear firing 8" passive radiator. The imaging was exceptional for a monitor of it's size and price - $995/pair.
long ago in so-cal, rogersound labs sold lots of speakers of their own build that were pretty much OK but not spectacular. they were good of value but not especially a bargain.
then howard rodgers expanded and sold many brands in many stores as RSL. he eventually sold the company and retired. recently, he bought the name back, and created some products that are seriously worth seeking.
click the link below and see the system i recommend wholeheartedly. it does just what you are looking for at the price you want. i have at least two friends with this system, one of which i get to hear frequently.
the imaging is superb and the response across the frequency band is smooth and extended in both directions. the speedwoofer is aptly named as it is very tight and reaches into the bottom deeply. that it is remotely controlled is a big benefit for setup.
if i werent well set for loudspeakers, it would be on my short list. it sounds better than it has any right to.
...regards...tr
Is his room treated?
From what I've been able to learn, the speaker/room interaction is perhaps just as (more?) important than the electronics.
Put $10,000,000 system into a crappy room might not sound as nice as a $1,000 in an excellent sounding room.
Once heard some speakers that were intended to retail for about $25,000/pair. Heard them in a banquet room (hard floor/walls/ceiling) and the sound was near terrible.
Heard them in a quasi-treated room (fixing major issued, not fine tuned) and they were stunning.
What was intersting is, when they were in the quasi-treated room, the upstream electronics were a $50 CD player bought from WALMART, digital crossover and, if I recall, some QSC amps.
Absolutely smoked the sound in the banquet room... same speakers.
I agree with the others - if you're not getting great imaging out of your Quad electrostatic panels, there is something amiss with your setup.
Remember that Quads are dipole speakers. They put as much sound out to the rear as they do the front, so you need to pay special attention to the wall behind the speakers and the distance allowed. Also look at the primary reflection points (floor, side walls and even ceiling) between you and the speakers. Left/right asymmetry can cause problems, particularly if it affects the range of instrumental and voice fundamentals. Our ears are particularly sensitive in this frequency band.
That said, some people find the dipole setup more daunting and have an easier go with box speakers. If you decide that, at least you'll have no problem selling the Quads. They've got a cult following.
Properly set up ESL57s can do that magical disappearing thing about as well as anything out there. The caveats being:
1) You have to be in the smallish sweet spot
2) They are far better suited to small scale, limited dynamics music (chamber music, folkies/singer-songwriters and intimate acoustic jazz - not so much brass heavy big bands) than to Mahler symphonies or the Peter Brotzmann Tentet).
3) "Properly set up" implies that both the electronics and the room are dialed.
I've heard the Gallos and I've heard the ESL57s in numerous contexts and I don't think your speakers are the issue.
Seriously!
:-)!
If you've read this, a response is preferred.
Warmest
Timothy Bailey
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
Well it's good to know that people feel the Quads are not the problem.
I do get excellent imaging from the Quads, which have been recently rebuilt by Wayne Picquet and which have been tried in many various positions. It's just that the imaging I hear on my friend's system is appreciably tighter and better defined and thus more mind blowingly magical. My system reaches that level of resolution, only on occasion.
Maybe it's his preamps, cd player, cartridge and high powered Atma-Sphere's that are making the difference. His room is pretty hodge-podge, especially compared to my carefully put together dedicated listening room, so I doubt the difference is in room treatment. His room isn't treated at all!!
I may have to chalk it up to the fact that there really is a difference between a $7,000 system and a $40,000 system after all.
> > I do get excellent imaging from the Quads....
> >
> > ... my friend's system is appreciably tighter and better
> > defined and thus more mind blowingly magical.
This conversation started with only a reference to "imaging", but now you're indicating that isn't so much the problem as other sonic factors. Sounds like bass quality and general tonal response are more likely to be the source of the difference than imaging.
It would be interesting to see what music you're using for reference. I could easily see if modern pop/rock is your choice in the fashion of current recording techniques, that you might easily prefer something other than the Quads. OTOH, if neutrally recorded, unamplified voice and acoustic instruments are the gauge, the Quads should be right up there with much of the modern equipment sold these days.
For what it's worth, the sound of neutrally recorded unamplified music isn't much in fashion these days. Super-close miking, multi-channel mixed and processed recordings with a "Kodachrome" quality are far more common.
(I do not write as a Quad owner - I've got Spendors.)
I listen mostly to small group classical and acoustic jazz. I think I might put some effort into improving the listening room. But, as I said, my friend's stereo is just kind of plopped down in his living room, which is completely assymetrical and has no treatments for reflections.
For what it's worth, he thinks the difference is the preamps. He has Aesthetix phono preamp and line preamp... I'm using vintage Accuphase.
Good luck with your experiments. I wouldn't think it too hard to arrange a trial of different electronics to test your friend's thought. It doesn't have to be his brand just to see if a switch would change your perception.
In spite of their modern appearance, Gallos are still a forward-firing box speaker. They have a dramatically different radiation pattern and other characteristics than your dipole Quads. The speaker differences alone are on an order of several magnitudes more than any difference in electronics.
In my book, that's rather like noticing a 2-seat sports car does not drive the same as a SUV and ascribing the difference to the spark plugs.
That's not to say you won't prefer one set of electronics over another, but changing the electronics is not going to make Quads sound like Gallos. At this point, maybe it's time to ignore lineage and classic reputations. I suspect you just like the sound of the Gallos better.
I've never heard Gallos but I've never heard anyone that has say that they didn't like them. That said, I'd try to get an audition in your room with the rig that lights your fire, especially if your friend is willing to help you pursue your muse. If he would simply allow you to duplicate the experience in your home and allow you to make an assessment in your own environs, you can know for sure if the nirvana you experienced at his house can be duplicated. Or you might consider moving in with him. Music and proper reproduction is of course very important!
Freedom is the right to discipline yourself.
I've never heard Gallos.ut I've never heard anyone that has say that they didn't like them. That said, I'd try to get an audition in your room with the rig that lights your fire, especially if your friend is willing to help you pursue your muse. If he would simply allow you to duplicate the experience in your home anf allow you to make an assessment in your own environs, you can know for sure if the nirvana you experienced at his house can be duplicated. Or you might consider moving in with him. Music and proper reproduction is of course very imprtant.
Freedom is the right to discipline yourself.
From all that you said, I'll lean towards you liking the sound of the Gallos and all that they bring to the table. It would be great if you could just switch out speakers and listen to the Gallos in your room. How good of a friend do you have?
Many thanks to ALL of you for your informative responses.
I wish I could borrow some of my friend's components, but I really don't know him that well, and it would just be too awkward.
One thing that I have been thinking about this afternoon is that one of the aspects of my friend's system's sound that I really love is the feeling that the sound is well behind the speakers, not on top of the listener at all.
No matter how I move the Quads around in my room, the sound is never that far back behind them. Even when I put 2/3 of the room between them and the back wall, the sound remains only a foot or so behind the speakers. My room is about 17 feet deep, and 13 feet wide.
I don't think that live music sounds like my friend's system really. It is an artificial sound, but there is a certain magic to it that is so wonderful.
Perhaps I'll start looking for a pair of Gallo 3's.
Perhaps you could arrange to swap speakers for a weekend with your friend or something along those lines. That way you're both sharing the risks & experimentation. He may be open to something like that. Who knows? You may both find you like each others speakers better than your own.
common wisdom says that the 57s will give you the magic you want.
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
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