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Model: | Compact 7 ES-3 |
Category: | Speakers |
Suggested Retail Price: | $3,900 |
Description: | Harbeth Monitor |
Manufacturer URL: | Harbeth |
Model Picture: | View |
Review by bullethead on August 01, 2009 at 18:08:23 IP Address: 98.113.195.211 | Add Your Review for the Compact 7 ES-3 |
Note $3,800 is for the Eucalyptus wood, I believe the other finishes are a little less in cost.
I am a proud owner of the Harbeth Compact 7 ES-3 Loudspeaker now for about 4 months, and have finally found the sound I am looking for. Natural, real and smooth. The ES-3 would tend to sound "warm" for someone who's used to listening to speaker after speaker, however the way this speaker is voiced you really have to hear the detail and accuracy to believe it. It's not "warm" but rather "natural". The ES-3 has a sound about it which is in a rare class of esoteric speakers coming out of England that have the goal of a BBC tradition for the quest for the "perfect transducers". The ES-3 uses the Harbeth signature "Radial-2" cone as well as the new "Open Weave" tweeter. This separates this model from the older models. I can't compare what I've heard to the older models but the Harbeth's really bring out the life in the music.
Everything sounds absolutely fantastic and they are relatively easy to drive. Using a Bel Canto S300 amp rated at 150watts/8ohms I can drive the speakers to really loud levels without distortion. However medium levels are where the speakers shine their light and emit into the room atmosphere and class like no other speaker I have heard. Silky smooth midrange, decent bass and realistic clarity in the high frequencies make this a speaker worth listening to in the sub $4,000 space. Listening with proper stands is recommended, I went with a company out of Canada called "Foundation" for the stands. Anywhere from 19" to 22" of height in the stands are recommended for optimal imaging and soundstage realism.
I have to say I've found my pair of speakers for the long term, and I'll keep them for a long time. After switching speakers in and out of my system like changing socks I've finally come to the conclusion that the Harbeth's are here to stay.
Product Weakness: | boxy looking, but the sound is world class |
Product Strengths: | Realism |
Amplifier: | Bel Canto S300 |
Preamplifier (or None if Integrated): | Bel Canto DAC3 |
Sources (CDP/Turntable): | Bel Canto CD-2 |
Speakers: | Harbeth Compact 7 ES-3 |
Cables/Interconnects: | Kimber |
Music Used (Genre/Selections): | Jazz, Classical, Rock, Techno, BM |
Time Period/Length of Audition: | 4 |
Other (Power Conditioner etc.): | PS Audio |
Type of Audition/Review: | Product Owner |
Harbeth's are special and folks that haven't spent time with them won't get it. They are incredibly natural sounding and totally musical.
"E pur si muove...And yet it moves"
Nice Tod Browning reference.
And speaking of Harbeth, I know the P3ESR's are in customers hands overseas. I wonder if they're shipping in the USA yet?
Appreciate it. I'm having a great time listening to them. Been playing a lot of "Bohren & der Club of Gore" which is a really slow playing Doom Jazz band from Germany. The sound is wonderful. Pouring some glasses of Bourbon and I feel like daddy megabucks! LOL!
Its always great to hear of somebody enjoying their speakers.
Makes me wonder what exactly makes the Harbeth better than its peers.The material of the drivers,the magnet,the order of crossover,the light cabinet or a combination of some of these?
Wonder when they would come up with a 'budget' speaker,sacrificing only a little of the above.
I would like to hear more about the designer of these speakers.If only he had given the speaker the name made up of the initials of his name a la PSB the reviews of which never fails to mention Paul and Sue Barton.
I did an article seven years back in which the Compact 7es2 was looked at.
I really loved Harbeth's neutrality and freedom from resonance, attained through damping both driver colouration (radial technology) and cabinet resonance(lossy joints and light/flexible panels).
I've always found freedom from colouration to be the overriding priority when selecting speakers. Before the C7's, I had Celestion SL600's with silent aerolam cabinets that allowed the speakers to vanish. After the C7's, I moved to Harbeth's bigger M40's, which had a remarkably silent sonic footprint, considering their large size.
Now I use Soundlabs panels which make do without an enclosure and eradicate the membrane clang suffered by most panel speakers through its "resonance distribution" feature. In my other set up, I use LS3/5a's, which are the C7's BBC ancestor.
Considering their lossy cabinet design, I found Harbeth speakers sound best on rigid and light wooden stands. They sound much faster, cleaner and more transparent that way than on heavy metal stands, which negate their strengths. I began by placing them on heavy stands filled with sand, but could always hear a metallic tinge and with detail being muddled due to energy stored and fed back by the heavy mass.
Eventually I fabriacted a number of light and stiff wooden frame stands. They really freed the C7 and M40 to be what they were designed to be. Would recommend that you try this. The wooden stands will be much cheaper than your heavy metal ones.
20 years ago i've made concrete stands for my Rogers LS5/9 that i still use with Harbeth Monitors 30. I think it's the best you can make for this kind of speakers (and all kind of bookshelf for that matter)
It's a bit extreme, +40 Kg per stand, but there's absolutely no energy loss and transfer into the ground. They just can't vibrate.
The result was really amazing, no subtle, like the music jumped out of the speakers like never before. You can see pic in my profile.
Even the stands are visually appealing, in a concrete sort of way.
*
Robert Greene agrees with you about wooden stands for Harbeths. I never had a problem with steel ones nor apparently does Harbeth, but you appear to have very sensitive hearing, as does Greene, who also plays the violin.
Harbeth has always recommended that the tweeters be at the height of your ears. When they sold the original C7s with a matching stand, it was 17 inches. The woofer in that cabinet works best on a 16-17 inch stand. You like them. That's fine. But if someone doesn't, I would recommend a lower stand and tilting them back if necessary just enough so that tweeters are firing at the listener's ears. Otherwise you're listening to some salesman's ideas instead of the designer's.
________
"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
Correct, you align the tweeter with the height of your ears, I have a pretty high couch. That comment related to my room.
Speaking of which, what are the dimensions of your room? In the past C-7's preferred small or moderate sized rooms. I'm curious whether the new model is similar in that respect.
16 foot long, 12 foot wide, 8 foot high.
Perfect. When I had the earlier 7's here, they really sounded great in my 12' x 24' x 8' room. In my 18 x 30 with 10 foot ceiling, they were a tad boxy sounding. In the smaller rooms, even at low volume, they had great weight and clarity both. Look forward to hearing the new ones.
I see you list classical music among your listening. Have you tried the Harbeths on orchestral music? Can they carry the weight and scale of an orchestra? THANKS.
-Bob
They can indeed when I turn on my subwoofer. However without one it just doesn't move enough air around the room to really feel it unless I play really loud, the speakers don't really strike me as wanting to be played really loud however. So I would suggest a subwoofer for that purpose. You need a pretty neutral subwoofer as well, not too fast and not too slow, too fast and it's out of wack, too slow and it sounds out of place. I found my Polk PSW650 to be almost there, sometimes it catches up to the performance a tad bit too late though, but not too noticeable.
similar priced Merlin or Joseph Audio?
Best Regards
Haven't heard the speakers you speak of.
n.t.
Oh, No not the newest Harbeth's, but no matter. I agree with Bob. The Harbeth is a far more enjoyable speaker.
"Live free or die"
Wonder if the Harbeth LS3/5A was better than the Rogers and Spendor versions. I have heard only the Rogers.Have you heard the others?Did they all sound the same? Were the KEF drivers used in all of them?
I have heard a 15 Ohm Chartwell, a 10 Ohm Rogers, and I own the Stirling. I have heard the older Harbeth mini, but not the new one with the radial cone and the current Spendor 3-5. The differences are not that great.
The Harbeth 10 Ohm won the vaunted LS3/5A original shootout and I believe the Rogers was a very close second. Yes, I believe the original license was satisfied by using KEF or Harbeth drivers.
You need to look at http://www.ls35a.com/ which is the unofficial LS3/5A site to get the complete info on drivers.
"Live free or die"
That was very informative.Thanks.
I owned a pair of Rogers from 1977 to 79.It was a 15 ohm pair.I still feel pretty bad that I had only a Marantz receiver to drive it.My Advent receiver was not up to driving it either.In my small apartment,I had to place them on top of my large Advents.What a mess!
Best Regards
Bill
Thanks for the review. The ES3's are a great speaker.
7 years ago I bought a pair of Eucylptus ES2's. RETAIL WAS TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS.
What other hi-fi speaker has nearly DOUBLED IN PRICE IN THE LAST SEVEN YEARS?
And don't give me that 'it's the weak dollar' crap. The dollar has been getting stronger and the Compact 7's keep GOING UP IN PRICE.
This is 'what the market will bear' pricing pure and simple. Harbeth are great speakers, and if I were them I might do exactly the same thing. Hell, it makes sense. And a lot of money. But that doesn't mean it's not ok to gripe about it in a forum!
PS: It's funny the SHL5's, a larger speaker (more expensive to package ship, more cabinetry) has not seen similar price increases. I'm not complaining about that, mind you. If I had five grand to spend, that's probably what I'd buy. And I'm fascinated (like, thinking about ordering a pair sight unheard) by the new P3ESR. Which are priced similarly (if a tad bit higher) than similar Rogers and Stirlings.
Harbeths do not seem to appeal to the masses by any stretch and their manufacturing cost/retail pricing probably reflect their niche selective market, at least in the US I assume: a local SF Bay Area audio dealer told me some time ago that he had to drop the Harbeth line because most all potential customers said they were just too ugly and unappealing. "Audiophiles" who value sound over looks or what's "in style" is a relatively small market.
not to mention small cranial cavities.
jim buck
I went looking for new speakers a couple months ago and was shocked at the degree of price inflation over the last 5 years or so.
My little Focus Audio 688 monitors have gone up from $2600 to $4200. Kef Reference seem to have gone up even more. The 201/2 is $6k now, and 205/2 is over $15k! Dynaudio C1 monitors are over $7k and the C2 is at least 12. Dali, Focal, Revel - they've all gone up too. It is really getting hard to find a high quality monitor that lists under $5k new or mid-size floorstander for under $10k new.
Compared to the rest of the market, Harbeth & Spendor are bargains, especially Spendor.
And they say Bose is overpriced.
...when it comes to the pricing of Harbeth and Spendor. That has always struck me as odd when these two manufacturers are so solidly in the middle range of high-end audio pricing. If you want silly or obscene pricing, there are a zillion other examples that make Harbeth and Spendor look like they're sold in the discount isle at Walmart.
One by-product of truly mass marketed consumer goods (computers, TVs, etc.) is that we have gotten used to prices falling or at least being stable while quality and features improve. That's a function of being able to make a couple ten-million of something.
Unfortunately, Harbeth and Spendor are probably never going to produce on that scale so their expenses are always going to be higher. I have no idea if the retail pricing changes for these two manufacturers over the years is directly and proportionately related to their production costs.
What I do know is they make speakers in their respective price ranges that I like better than anything I've heard from anyone else.
As a consumer that is pretty much the only thing about which I can be certain. If I have $4K to spend on a new speaker today, what are my other options?
The fact that they were cheaper some years ago is irrelevant to my current situation. I might as well bemoan the fact that gas was under 20 cents a gallon when I started driving at age 16 and it isn't anymore.
Gas hasn't doubled in price (or nearly so) in SEVEN YEARS.And yes, talking about what hi-end audio sells for is a reasonable topic for discussion in a forum. Particularly with the growth of the 'let's charge a fortune and sell it to the rich guys' philosophy that is so evident with some manufacturers.
No, I'm not saying Harbeth is one of them. But this one particular speaker in their line-up has seen steady and considerable price increases and shows no sign of stopping. Curious, only one product in a line going up and up.....
Edits: 08/02/09
> > Gas hasn't doubled in price (or nearly so) in SEVEN YEARS.In that time, some things have gone up in price and others down. The United Nations Conference on Trade & Development pointed out that in June 2008 world food prices had doubled in just three years, with an 85 percent increase from 2007 to 2008. They explained no single factor was responsible.
While can be interesting to speculate as to why the price of something goes up or down, it usually isn't a very productive exercise unless one is in that business.
> > And yes, talking about what hi-end audio sells for is a reasonable
> > topic for discussion in a forum.I'll admit that point, but this seems to be a particular thorn in your side as it has come up before. It seems to only involve these two particular manufacturers, hence the "selective fixation" observation.
> > Particularly with the growth of the 'let's charge a fortune and sell it
> > to the rich guys' philosophy that is so evident with some manufacturers.
> > No, I'm not saying Harbeth is one of them. But this one particular speaker
> > in their line-up has seen steady and considerable price increases and shows
> > no sign of stopping. Curious, only one product in a line going up and up.....There has always been a market for those who sell things to people who are impressed by high prices and exclusivity. When you single out more than once only two manufacturers for your disapprobation while many other companies are far more egregious on the pricing issue, your "No, I'm not saying Harbeth is one of them" rings rather faintly.
We can sit and navel-gaze the mystery of their price increases all day long and not accomplish much. Just curious if you've brought the subject up in the Harbeth forums. I don't recall seeing the subject come up in the Spendor users group that I regularly read.
Edits: 08/02/09
Man, that Monet was really expensive...
Does this come from the Realistic receivers at Radio Shack? If you buy a receiver for $50 and it plays music, than why on earth would you pay $3000 for a pair of speakers? High End audio has little similarity to Lo-Fi in this respect; and as John points out, the associated development costs are absolutely not commensurate.
Both sides of the river, there is bacteria; there must be meaning behind the moaning, is this living?
Harbeth claims that the C7 was substantially re-engineered between the -2 and -3 versions, and I have no reason to doubt them.
A manufacturer I know told me, and I have no reason to doubt him, that in the five year development of his flagship speaker, he paid his German OEM supplier to make 26 different midrange driver prototypes, and that the fabrication cost on all his ribbon-tweeter wave guide prototypes totalled $180,000.00.
You have to amortize those costs over the first couple of years of sales, if you want to stay in business.
You do seem to ignore that the Harbeth C7 -3 is a substantially revised speaker. I don't think, based on what I know of the industry, that they are profiteering.
How much does the silk in a $35 silk necktie cost? How much do the smelly molecules in a bottle of over-advertised fragrance cost? The only thing less efficient than a market where anyone can try to make a buck on anything, is a market where Harvard MBAs employed by the government decide who can make what. Live with it.
JM
spendor runs a bit less, but still no bargain.
Yes, Spendors are still imported (I have a nearly new pair of SA1's)and whether or not a speaker is a bargain depends not only on its initial sales price, but how long the speaker will continue to satisfy. In this regards, most Spendors stand the test of time and therefore are, indeed, a "bargain," when their initial cost is amortized over years of use and enjoyment.
Neal
I'm talking the classic line, of course. The towers are for the home theater crowd.
And isn't the SP1/2R about five grand now? So that would put it near the SHL5 (a much better speaker in my opinion, but maybe not everyone elses).
I think the SP1/2 is a little long in the tooth to be compared to the Compact 7 ES3's, so really - where's the comparison?
I'm not in the market for new Spendors (I'm sticking with my SP1/2Es) but the dealer where I've bought Spendors in the past tells me they are available. Whether any dealers in the US have the new R classic series in-stock, I don't know, but you should be able to order a pair at the least.
Edits: 08/02/09
Where in my post did I describe either as a "bargain"?
I only said that I prefer them over other products I've heard in the same price range. I have little doubt that other people make different choices.
Agree totally....
The competition is really fierce in all areas now. If the price is not commensurate with performance, the market is going to kill it. (Even more so now that the luxury item market is really falling apart; as the West collapses from a developed world to a developing world).
There are many, many, great speakers that have stood the test of time, not only because they were well designed, sounded great, looked great, and were flexible, - but also because they offered VALUE; balance between all of those factors.
That does not mean that some folks don't fall down the rabbit hole sometimes by making the "mistake" of not taking into account their room and the other system components, focusing on the speakers; (continually replacing them), when its other parts of the system that need attention.
Both sides of the river, there is bacteria; there must be meaning behind the moaning, is this living?
Mfgrs - unless they are monopolists - ignore the market at their own peril. Even oligopolistic firms don't have complete market power to price their output and have to pay attention to how other firms price their products, either by reacting to them or anticipating them.
For the enjoyment they can produce relative to other speakers like them, I believe these Harbeth's are priced very competitively.
"Live free or die"
1) Whatever the market will bear. Ayre. Mark Levinson and that 'Red Rose' chinese crap they priced THRU THE ROOF. I don't think Harbeth or Spendor really fit in this category, although as you know - I have my doubts about the Compact 7 pricing!
2) Build them, then add a reasonable profit to your costs. Magnepan comes to mind here. NAD. I don't think Magnepan or NAD, just to pick a few examples, would raise the price of a product five hundred dollars just because it got a good review in Stereophile.
Unfortunately option 1 has been growing in popularity with hi-fi manufacturers in the past ten years.
Part of 'the problem' with speakers imported into the US is that you have (1) production cost - parts and labor plus (2) producer's profit, which is (3) importer/distributor cost, including shipping and his profit, resulting in (4) dealer's cost, including shipping and his profit yielding (5) retail price. So you've got five steps. So if you want to talk about what a fair retail price for a Harbeth Compact 7 should be in the U.S., divide what you consider a fair retail price by 5 and see what's available for production. If the eucalyptus 7's are 4,000, then parts and labor are $800. That's for two speakers. Fair?
If you buy speakers built in the U.S., you'll save around 20%, theoretically.
To play Devil's advocate though Bob - All those costs you mention were there when the same speaker was apparently selling for $2k.
My salary didn't double in the last 7 years - and not many people's salary's have doubled in that period of time - nor has the cost of living - which accounts for currency.
Having said that - It's Harbeth's decision - if sales begin to dwindle then perhaps raising prices will compensate.
If you don't like the price don't buy it - lots of products are out there.
I wish more companies would have a "kit" option like my favorite speaker. You get the "platform" sound and if you want better it's available if you have the money.
Yeah, I know, but there's likely a lot going on here. Reynaud Twins were $995 not too long ago and the reason they're now $1895 (my doing), is so that everyone in the chain can make something. When I passed off the job of importer a month or two ago, I was making about $150 on Duets when I sold them to my dealers, after paying export price, shipping to US from France, duty, and port charges. And the standard Compact 7's aren't $4000, they're around $3500 if Gene Rubin's price is current. My guess is, as John Marks suggests, they were priced a bit low to begin with, probably to get the marque better known. And both the Euro and pound jumped a year or so ago (?), though they have settled down now. When the Twins were $995, the Euro was around $1.15 and now it's around $1.40. Anyway, as you say, no one is forcing anyone to buy Harbeths (or Reynauds). And there is a built-in resistance to paying a lot of money for what many still consider 'just a hobby.'
When dealing with imported audio equipment, one must also factor in currency fluctuations. If certain costs are in pounds and you are paying paid in dollars, you need to hedge for declines in value of dollar, which will continue along with our swelling deficit.
Neal
What US company is producing speakers even remotely similar to Harbeths though?
I am trying to think off the top of my head...a US speaker manufacturer that's been around for 40 years or so, with models that have not changed much in 40 years (except for the ever increasing price), that straddles the line between the domestic and professional audio worlds...I can't think of any.
I guess we'll just have to keep on importing these.
Snells have changed dramatically after Peter Snell's death. Audio Note speakers are the truest offspring of the originals.
"Live free or die"
No one and yes.
I may be off by a year. The later $2000 retail you paid was sort of an intro promotion because the brand had been out of the US market for a while. I bought my original C7's in rosewood from the UK in '98 at about $1650 because they were having a sale. And the op above lists the price for a more expensive finish. I don't know what the current list for the cherry finish is, but you should compare it to $2500 15 years ago and consider that the speakers had no following then and are in some demand now. I think the price increase is reasonable. They were an incredible bargain before and are fairly priced now.
________
"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
Since you missed it the first time:
SEVEN YEARS AGO RETAIL ON EUCYLYPTUS ES2'S WAS TWO GRAND.
Yes, it went up to $2500 shortly after that.
SO WHAT?
SEVEN YEARS AGO RETAIL ON EUCYLYPTUS ES2'S WAS TWO GRAND.
I don't recall what the C7s cost 7 years ago, but I am sure that is when Winter Tree Audio had North America for Harbeth, because my writeup of the M40s ran in the October 2002 issue of Stereophile.
The proprietor of Winter Tree was a nice guy, a true believer, but, I saw a train wreck coming, in that I think he tragically overestimated pent-up demand. If one does a Vulcan Mind Meld with a certain famous Harbeth booster/audio scribe, you are at risk of coming away with the idea that everybody from Helio Castroneves to his dancing partner are going to be lining up waving cash at you to get their pair before Jimmy Carter gets his, and it just ain't so. Harbeths are an acquired taste and a minority enthusiasm.
He priced the M40--7 years ago--at $6949/pr., which meant that for every pair he sold he had about $1348.00 with which to pay customs, insurance, and freight, and rent, and utilities and insurance and advertising and travel and entertainment, etc.
Perhaps if the US MSRP on the C7s in 2002 had been $2750 or even $3000, he might still be in business and might still have the line.
An importer has to do it all on the 20 points between importer cost and dealer cost. The dealer's theoretical gross is double the importer's.
I myself find the C7 to be very fairy priced and verging on a bargain. I can't think of a speaker at $3500 I'd more highly recommend to a mature classical music lover (although I have yet to hear the ATC SCM 19).
So, there's your so-what. Assuming your recollection is accurate, both the $2000 C7 price and the $2500 price were too low, as proven by the fact that the importer who set those prices could not stay in business.
Loudspeakers are to a certain degree like musical instruments--nearly everything matters as far as influencing the sound goes. I doubt that a factory in China or Taiwan could knock off the Harbeth Compact 7 and sell it here for half price. My experience with the GINI "LS3/5A" non-clone convinced me of that.
If you think Harbeth's pricing is a ripoff, don't buy them. I think that most manufacturers price things fairly, taking into account R & D costs. If you want a wooden boat, be prepared to pay for one, and don't whine that wooden boats cost more than plastic ones--IMHO.
JM
"a mature classical music lover"
Right. And what percentage of the audio buying public do you suppose fit this description? What percentage of Harbeth owners fit it? I agree that is their primary appeal and that they are an acquired taste and at least used to suspect these two observations were related. I also agree that the former importer from Nova Scotia was a gem of a guy who may well have been too good for the business, though pricing wasn't the only issue there. Selling a low profile brand, even a truly excellent one, takes capital and a kind and degree of promotional effort that for various reasons he was unable to mount, a situation I empathize with entirely. Garnet loved Harbeths for all of the right reasons and was a thoughtful and compelling spokesman for them.
Walter, an experienced and respected audio businessman, appears to be doing fine with Harbeth and its niche seems larger than many of us thought. The late Backwoods Ontario Barry thought they played "Platonic Mingus," but there appear to be some jazz and even rock fans out there who disagree. They do what they do in a singularly impressive way. And they're not putting out a lot of 'other stuff' as Spendor is to pay the bills. More power to Alan for that.
On the question of whether Harbeth's can satisfy "rockers." for me the answer was no. Classical music is about 20% of my listening, the remainder being jazz, international, rock, folk, etc. I owned the M40's for two years (the version before the current one), and, like other Brit speakers I have owned, heard a pervasive warmth coloration that did not serve all types of music well. For me, the speakers lacked immediacy, "aliveness" and the warm/polite coloration got in the way of ultimate satisfaction. I have a lot of respect for Harbeth's technology and with certain acoustic music the speakers could be magical, but rock and kick they did not.
On the question of importing, as a very little, home based audio retailer who's in it primarily to pursue passion and make a few shekels along the way, I can't see straying from North American companies, of which there are many making very fine audio gear. The extra costs involved with foreign makers make price points very unattractive as compared to US products, especially in this current economic environment.
Julian
Sorry I missed this post, which is what I get from not scrolling down often and far enough.
I too am a small, home-based dealer, as you may know. But I find that the price points for Audio Note (UK), JM Reynaud (France), and Blue Circle (Canada) seem acceptable in the U.S. And unlike you, I've not found comparable products here.
We agree pretty much about Harbeths. I too lived with M40's (preceding generation) for quite a while, though I also had C7's and M30's here for long enough to get what they were about. I don't find Harbeths all that warm (warmth is a highly relative matter) but do feel they come up short on 'aliveness' and 'immediacy,' as you say. I don't think that's a product of their (relative) warmth but rather that they are in fact a bit reserved, by design. I find it interesting that even folks who aren't much drawn to Harbeths tend to respect what they do. And no, they don't really rock. As I wrote, they do "Platonic Mingus."
Bob: Sounds like we pretty much agree on the Harbeths, lots of respect but little love. Hey, two people agree on something on an audio forum! Apparently lots of folks find complete satisfaction with Harbeths and I think that's great. There is no universal audio.
On carrying and selling international gear, you would know more than me. My assumption is that duty/customs, shipping and extra distributor costs make it less competitive than American gear from the outset. Not to mention after sale costs (service, warranty, etc.). I consider Blue Circle (which I carry) basically an American enterprise as there is no distributor and extra shipping/duty costs are negligible. Plus, it's pretty close by.
I'm not opposed to foreign equipment, I've owned a ton of it, but I feel there are advantages for retailers and consumers to strongly consider "buying American."
Julian
The fact that a US importer pays the "export cost" when he buys from such companies as JMR and Audio Note helps to absorb the extra costs, so retail prices tend to match the street price overseas. But with the less expensive gear, it can be touchy. When I sold JMR Duets to my dealers, I cleared around $100! I did it mainly to get the speakers out into the world, which was my reason for taking on the import duties for a couple of years anyway. On the more expensive speakers, which I priced competitively on the US market, I made enough to compensate for the low margin on the Duets. But you are right that shipping to the US, duty, and other port charges can make it less than a lucrative business. If I had to live on what I make, I might have gone your route. But some European gear is....special.
You wrote (quoting me):
"a mature classical music lover"
Right. And what percentage of the audio buying public do you suppose fit this description?
End quote.
I don't think I have to suppose, I believe I know: mature classical music lovers are a small minority of the "audio buying public" and a larger minority of audiophiles, but still a minority.
This does not mean that Harbeth is the only good speaker out there. I think Aerial 20Ts are wonderful. I love Wilson Benesch. But, to repurpose JA's observation re: overported speakers, nobody every went broke selling a speaker that is very impressive in a short showroom audition.
The single most disappointing first hearing I can ever remember was the Quad ESL-63 at Tweeter Etc. Right, yeah. I assign blame from my mature perspective equally to the speaker, Tweeter's piss-poor setup, and my own immaturity as a listener--even though at the time I owned Fried C2s, hardly a boom and sizzle speaker.
A very successful importer told me many years ago that (then), to launch a high-end audio line in the US so that it gained traction and stayed in the game took a $250,000 bankroll.
Today, paradoxically, that number may be still the same or even smaller, because there are fewer stores to visit and publications to advertise in.
But even before lack of working capital came into it, I think the former importer had tunnel vision that came from his map of the world having the Harbeth fanboys in the foreground (like the old New Yorker cover with the New Yorker's view of the world). At one point he told me he was concerned about Harbeth's being "over-exposed," and I said to myself, G_d help this guy, and soon, please.
As I understand it, Harbeth has fewer than half the US dealers that Wilson Audio Specialties does, and I surmise that most of Harbeth's dealers are less well-established and less well-capitalized than the average Wilson dealer. I don't see any profiteering going on with Harbeth.
JM
I guess not. Harbeths, like their competition, have a point of view about reproduction. It is a conservative one and has remained commendably consistent for a long time now, thanks to Alan who knows quite specifically what he's about. Speakers which make no mistakes put themselves in a small circle, with the majority of others outside.
I am curious about rockers and jazz folk who choose Harbeths over other speakers. Not skeptical, curious. Despite what we say about good speakers being good at everything, some good ones are less so than others. It is hard to have that kind of conversation here but it could be an illuminating one. It would be fun at a show somewhere, sometime to sit in a room with Harbeths, Spendors, Audio Notes, Reynauds, Aerials, Quads, a selected few others, each with the appropriate electronics and just listen, take notes, listen, and talk. Someday.
> I am curious about rockers and jazz folk who choose Harbeths over other speakers.
It may be surprising to you, but some of us actually use our gears as a source for family enjoyment. We play music while eating dinner, or when kids are doing homework. We listen to music at moderate to low levels. Front row live concert loudness needs not apply! I think very few speaker designers had this in mind.
Richard
The fact that one given listener who mostly listens to rock buys Harbeth and is happy with them proves exactly that, and not a damn thing more.
Surveys "prove" that Christian women who were virgins when they married are "happier" with their sex lives than porno starlets are.
Or, to tone down the rhetoric a bit, researchers for Ford Motor were confounded in the mid-1960s to find that handling was both the "best" and "worst" feature survey respondents cited for their new Ford Mustangs.
Duuh. If you owned a Buick and traded it on a Mustang, holey schemoley.
However, if you traded an MGA in on a Mustang, what a joke.
Does my point begin to emerge from the murk?
Most companies will be happy to ship most speakers to me for an evaluation listen. And yet, however hard I work, there are lots of speakers I have never heard and am not likely to. Altec-Lansing's repro "Voice of the Theater" is special-order only. They don't want to build a pair and have it come back B-stock. JBL's $60,000 Anniversary speaker, I would not even ask for. MBL's biggest unitary omnis are tempting, but again, what, $69,000? My personal best was the $40,000 ESP Concert Grands. So what can a consumer do? How many guys can tell their wives, we are going to spend $1000 on planefare and hotel to go hear some speakers?
In the car business, the commonplace is that a salesman needs to give three test drives before he sells one car, because most people have the time, interest, and patience to put up with three test drives before they give up and buy the best one they happened to drive.
I sure as hell have not heard about a slew or a bevy of rock tracking studios changing over to Harbeths!!!
As far as your idea, a fond dream of mine was that Stereophile could have let each writer have one room at a Home Entertainment Show, and everybody would be under the same economic rule, whether it be $15,000 or $25,000, and invite products to make up their idea of a great system for a given price--new products only, no lucky finds on Audiogon. Apart from all the other issues, the current economic climate makes sure that will remain a dream.
I must say that hearing a Jerry Bruck recording of a Mahler/Wheeler 10th symphony live performance played back on Audio Note $19,000 bookshelf speakers remains one of the most memorable listening sessions in my life.
To return to the first subject, one of the most perceptive things Ken Kessler ever said was, "If something sounds good on Tuesday, it still sounds good on Wednesday."
A rocker who stops his speaker hunt at Harbeth might not have found the Platonic Ideal Rock Speaker at a Given Price. But: Really "good enough" is "really good enough."
JM
Bounds" on my SHL5's, and it sounded REALLY good, including the drum/
rhythm section, which is pretty darn chest-thumping.They CAN rock, esp.
with lots of power.But, yes, great with Brandenburgs, and solo violin, too.
-Mark in NC
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read"
Total I paid around $4.2grand for the speakers and the stands, FYI the Cherry are a LOT less FWIW.
I hear about the price increases, but to be honest it's worth it at least for me. I've made an investment for the next dozen or two dozen years. I spend about $20 grand on various speakers over the years swapping them every few years, and I've finally found myself at the end of that cycle with the addition of the Harbeth's.
Cheers!
For just buying what you want. And these are really great speakers.
And I've always been impressed with how Alan Shaw runs Harbeth. He's a savvy guy. I don't think we have to worry about Harbeth being bought by some Chinese company (unlike so many other Brit hi-fi companies).
The eucylyptus used to be same price as standard finishes. I've heard a lot about how tough it is for companies like Harbeth and Spendor to get the cabinets they want these days. Apparently that kind of wood-working is a dying art.
I follow the nuts and bolts of the industry so I can make an independent judgment on value for money. I actually think that we are in a Golden Age of loudspeaker cabinet quality, both wooden (e.g.g., Aerial, Magico) and non-wooden (Wilson Audio Specialties). Look at the woodwork of an Aerial 20T--that quality was not really available in loudspeakers 20 year ago. And the finish on a Sophia II was not even dreamed of.
However, in order to get the insane fit-n-finish of the 20T cabinets, Aerial had to outsource the work to Hornslet, IIRC in Denmark, where they have amazing CNC machines that do things that would be cost-prohibited to guys with a workbench, miter box, clamps, and jigs--period, end of story. The downside is that you can't go to a factory like Hornslet with a scrawled-upon lunch-counter napkin, you need CAD-CAM files. And you have to order cabinets in quantity to make them at all affordable. I believe that Hornslet makes the cabinet for the Magico Mini.
I was talking to a loudspeaker manufacturer yesterday who was so pleased about changing over to CNC, but the upfront costs were daunting/scary.
I can't imagine a young person today with a passion and talent for woodworking going into making loudspeaker cabinets. The money has to be much better in custom cabinetry and fine home-building. Who wants to glue veneer on rectangular boxes all day? Sounds like a good job to outsource to a prison program, no, I am not joking.
It is possible that eventually Alan Shaw will have no choice but to outsource Harbeth's cabinets to Hornslet.
Ciao,
JM
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