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In Reply to: RE: Dennis Fraker posted by Tre' on May 23, 2012 at 08:58:36
Correct. There exist plenty of high-power amps that WILL deliver 300 watts or more into a specified load. In that case, only on that load, only under that amp-drive condition-- sure-- a watt is a watt.
The problem arises when MUSIC changes both the amplifier's -and- the load's characteristics-- and keeps changing both continually throughout a musical performance.
Believe me, there are 300 watt amps that can light up a 400 watt light bulb, but CANNOT deliver even 1/400 of a watt of useful acoustical energy into a speaker voice coil under SOME combinations of frequency, frequency shift timing, and amplifier loading-- all of which are changing as music plays.
Enter an amp that can deliver one watt-- or whatever-- into any condition that music imposes on both the amp and the speaker-- and all wiring as well, and you will still have only one watt-- from the amp-- agreed.
What you're not addressing is that one watt is a LOT of power if it's working right all of the time under all musically driven conditions..
My JBL Paragon is a 3-way system using JBL 15" woofer in a Tunnel Port, a 2" midrange driver- spread-horn short-loaded, and JBL's Ring Tweeter.
Each channel has two crossover networks. The second network borrows power from the first network's output! Now, this thing is hard to drive! (more so than operating the same drivers and crossover networks in two separate cabinets would be-- the Paragon uses an integrator panel to combine and spread energy all over an entire room).
This means that all of the drivers must be driven harder to arrive at the same SPL's that are easier to achieve with the same parts-- operating only in stereo-- not as an integrated stereo/mono whole. (The Stereo Paragon is ONE stereo speaker).
There is a lot of wiring in this system, and that means substantial wire losses as well.
This system will not do anything even remotely impressive on solid state amps of less than about 500 watts/channel, and it has the same problems with almost all tube amplifiers, requiring a really good 150-200 watts of power per channel from them.
However, I am running all of this on a MAXIMUM of 1/12 watt per channel-- from a very carefully engineered S.E. direct-coupled tube amp.
Since the amp easily puts out over one watt, this system has tremendous bottom-end, outstanding wide-range dynamics, and tons of reserve power.
Measurements made of heat buildup INSIDE the woofer, mid-range, and tweeter voice coils tell the story: other amps are making a lot of HEAT-- this one is NOT.
The heat buildup from other amplifiers is because they cannot deliver MOST OF the musical signals ON TIME-- to the speaker driver voice coil. The physical motion is mostly fibrillation-- not music, and although the speaker may sound loud enough and sound pretty good, (because not ALL of said amp's power is causing fibrillation-- SOME is actually getting through on-time)--the heat buildup still tells the truth for anyone to see.
Also, woofer-cone motion is almost undetectable with the one watt D.C. amp-- indicating near ideal amp control over speaker diaphragm behavior.
1/12 watt MAX-- per channel-- that's all the listening room can take-- yet low-end output of this system is outstanding. The midrange is solid and full, and the highs are extended-- but coherent to the music-- they're part of the performance, not added "sizzle". Highs in this system, driven in this way-- are spookily real, sublime, pristine, powerful, solidly fleshed-out, multi-layered, and not a layer out-of-time or place.
The old Paragon is a great speaker-- I think easily the best ever built- but you'll never hear it on almost all available amplifiers-- it will sound bland.
Another interesting thing is that the system sounds exactly the same-- musically-- at all usable volume levels-- on the one watt D.C. amp..
This speaker will not do that on any other amplifier.
There you have it. Take it or leave it-- what exists-- is!
---Dennis---
Follow Ups:
I wish you would stop using these forums as advertising platforms. That is not their intended function.
In my opinion, AA is not an advertising platform for Dennis. And Serious Stereo is not even mentioned in his posts so web search engines will not find these posts.
Thanks tube wrangler. you gave me some insight about the AVVT 2A3 mesh, simply because I asked. All these threads behind my question and very little from anyone else about "my question". You guys have issue with the Wrangler, fine with me. Challenge the guy when you don't agree.Keep it up !!! I have to admit it's somewhat amusing. He obviously is going to keep doing his thing, and like it or not.... good for him. Anyway the truth is, those of us who are just lovers of how a SET reproduces the music , don't really know what he is talking about half of the time. And those who do, are going to build amps, or have them built their own way anyhow.
Very accurate post!
Hey! I stayed out of this feedlot for almost 2 years-- I liked the Grass-Fed world better!
This just got started because a guy asked about some 2A3 tubes that I have a lot of experience with. 300B's and 45's also! All I said was about tubes-- not anything else unless it was necessary in order to understand how the tube was, and should be-- used. I think any thinking person would want that important info., as it is CRUCIAL to getting the best out of said tubes!
But whatever! Perhaps forum guys could take a vote-- shall we outlaw all commercial posters so we can all go back to not learning anything important?
I'm not staying around for the inevitable mud-fest-- you can go back to standard whatever now!
---Dennis---
Dennis,Your contributions are needed and appreciated by all of us "modern" SE tube amplifier builders.
Please stay with us so we can benefit from your knowledge and wisdom.
dt 667
Edits: 05/29/12
Grassfed??? Well, that explains the tough hide. Been battling conventional wisdom on that since '99. About the same time I found tubes.
Put me down as a "NO" vote...I want to hear what the designers of good amps have to say...even if it is considered mumbo-jumbo by some!
I see you said you want to hear what these designers have to say....at least you didn't say you want to learn something from what they have to say....which is the point....no one minds Manufacturers participating in this forum. Gordon Rankin jumps in and his comments are sound and rational and you can learn something from him.....there is nothing unconventional about tubes....BTW. Dennis and his mini-me alter ego DLM view is that there is only one way to do something....their way....Dennis just went on to say that a speaker will only sound good with his amp....that is how far out their mumbo jumbo is....you have to have his amp, his wiring scheme and his speaker.....one stop shopping.
Mumbo mixed with my Gumbo .... Gives it a nice Flavor...!
Have fun
Willie
Yes, more from people who build and sell these instruments.
Willie
"I am running all of this on a MAXIMUM of 1/12 watt per channel"That would be .084 watts.
Your speakers are no better than 95db, 1 watt.
With 1/8 of a watt you get 86db. Recorded music has peaks that are at least 10db above the average level.
"1/12 watt MAX-- per channel-- that's all the listening room can take"
So are you saying you listen at less than 79db (less than 76db from each of the two speakers)?
Have you measured this and is that really all your listening room can take?
Your listening room must have very poor acoustics. That's too bad. :-(
BTW I believe very little of what you say.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 05/24/12
"I believe very little of what you say." -Tre'
Who does this matter to other than you???
Dennis is demonstrably not believable. (examples given on request)
I would think that would matter to anyone who reads his posts.
On the other hand, anyone who reads his posts will see that this is true.
I state this to him so that he knows that I'm not buying into his BS.
Let me ask you a question, why does any of this matter to you?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
On the other hand, Mr. Fraker builds very good amps for sell to the public.
"It's the "best" amp I have ever heard .....period." - unsolicited opinion from this thread
I would think he knows something about building good amps and is willing to let the marketplace decide. I want to read what he has to say and I want to decide what its worth is.
It matters to me that I don't want you running him off the forum.
If Dennis would talk sense and discuss his claims in a reasonable, technical manner there wouldn't be a problem.Instead he makes nonsensical technical claims that he doesn't back up.
He can't get 110db from a 97db speaker with his amp that he rates at 1 watt. 8 watts won't even do that.
"The system that I build from the Great Plains Audio 604/704 series
is more efficient-- it hits about 96-97 db/watt.
Doesn't matter. Either system can be driven to over 110 db cleanly by the same amp."http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/set/messages/7/70810.html
lakerfan says his amps sound great, I'm not disputing that. But when Dennis says things, like the above, I will not let them go UN-challenged.
I don't care if you want me to.
Again, if Dennis would just discuss these thing in a normal, grownup manner there would be no problem.
Here's another example of Dennis' nonsense.
"Believe me, there are 300 watt amps that can light up a 400 watt light bulb, but CANNOT deliver even 1/400 of a watt of useful acoustical energy into a speaker voice coil..... "
To start with, an amplifier does not deliver acoustical energy into a speaker voice coil. An amplifier delivers electrical energy to the voice coil and then the speaker delivers acoustical energy into the room.
And if I questioned him about this he would go off into a different subject containing more BS.
From any rational point of view it's just maddening to try to reason with Dennis.
The misinformation he gives, for the sake of honesty, can not be left to stand UN-challenged.
I don't know why that should be hard to appreciate or understand.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 05/25/12
I have no problem with post being challenged, but I think it more benefitual when done in an educational manner, not a condescending manner.
I appreciate the industry professionals here and look to them for education.
Tre has been posting in an educational manner over the past few years.....where have you been? Dennis and Jeff are all mumbo jumbo. no one is arguing what the amps sound like.....it is about technical mumbo jumbo, which you may not care about....if the amps sound good to you.....
Here 'ya go! As usual, I learn things from other things......
So, quite naturally, I got curious, and found this! (picture).
Since I haven't read it yet-- I offer no opinion....
---Dennis---
Thanks. Good luck with your business.
The iPod is a great accomplishment of electrical engineering.
I still want to hear from the designers of great sounding amps.
Well again, no one is arguing about the sound of the amps.....in case you missed that....no one is arguing about the sound of the amps.....this is an ongoing debate about the "Modern Tube Circuit Design" ..."Transfer Efficiency" and other terms made up by Dennis and Jeff....again, no one is arguing about what the amps sound like......I hope you captured that....now, I bet the the engineers that develope the Ipod can answer in a straightforward manner, basic engineering questions. also, please don't mention Dennis Fraker and Steve Jobs in the same breath. That is just foolish.
Edits: 05/27/12 05/27/12
No one is arguing about the sound of the amps.....
Hey Husky !!!!!!! I'm doing the analog thing for the first time since college.Tubes+Vinyl........ magical. Seems the 2A3 plus vinyl is my ticket to forgetting about the world these days.
Have a safe Connecticut Holiday.
No problem....How is life in the Windy City???? Thinking of a 2A3 myself actually! You into Jazz? I may have some LPs for ..... ps...I am sure those amps sound good. All of these argument have little to do with sound and a lot to do with technical credibility.......similar to the John Hogan debates, actually! (I miss John)...He was a terrific guy.
Edits: 05/27/12
Jazz ??? Most definitely. I grew up in a Rollins, Trane, post bop kinda home.
shoot me an email. I m lightening my LP load..
I once saw a JBL advert rating the Paragon system at 88db/watt.
The system that I build from the Great Plains Audio 604/704 series
is more efficient-- it hits about 96-97 db/watt.
Doesn't matter. Either system can be driven to over 110 db cleanly by the same amp.
Listening room is 13 ft. wide by about 24 ft., with a nice cathedral-peaked ceiling. The room averages about 8 ft. height.
The Paragon sits atop its own stage. This is 35 inches front-to-back, and is 120 inches long. A JBL Paragon is 104 inches wide (long).
The Paragon sits atop a stage that is 13 inches high. The top surface of my stage is made up of two layers of 1 1/8 inch marine plywood, glued and screwed together.. 2 x 12 rough-cut (full dimension, not planed)douglas fir timbers are used at 10 inch center-to-center spacing along the entire front width. These go front-to back, and are cut into the floor wood 1" deep. This is all screwed and glue-locked together.
The front of the stage is a 2 x 12 timber running the entire front of the stage, also cut into the floor, and screwed and glue-locked into the front-to-back timbers and to the top plates.
In our test lab, we have a replica of a room at RMAF, which is also 13 feet wide inside-- but the Hotel room is usually about 18 ft. long. In those setups, we run the Great Plains cabinets which we build across the narrow end of the room, firing into the riim's 18 ft. length. A bit of toe-in is used, and center to center spacing of driver center line varies in different rooms-- but about 57 inches will usually work OK.
Those cabinets have about 9 5/8 cu. ft. internal volume, and have found their way into quite a few homes. They work well on many different amps-- they are not anywhere near as fussy as the Paragon is-- because the Paragon is mixing right and left and doing stereo simultaneously. It is a SEVERE test of amp quality and power delivery.
It is hoped that this helps some of you out a bit with some of your own systems, and is the last of this series of posts.
---Dennis---
"I once saw a JBL advert rating the Paragon system at 88db/watt.
The system that I build from the Great Plains Audio 604/704 series
is more efficient-- it hits about 96-97 db/watt.
Doesn't matter. Either system can be driven to over 110 db cleanly by the same amp."
I thought you said your amp is rated at 1 watt?
How could it ever drive the Paragon or the Great Plains Audio system to 110db?
Like I said, I believe very little of what you say.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tre', I have to agree with you. I find many of Dennis's claims and "explanations" to be far-fetched and, in some cases, nonsensical. This is not to criticize his products at all, since I've never seen or heard them, but only to question his knowledge and understanding as demonstrated in his posts.
Edits: 05/25/12
Is the object of audio to make sense to theory, or to make the very best performing products possible, with no explaining needed at all?
Are you interested more in hearing the result, true to the musicians, or, knowing the theory?
Jeff Medwin
I seek the truth, as most of us do, I believe. Just trying to interpret/make sense of Dennis's long-winded ramblings -- or do you think that's a waste of time? Perhaps you're right.
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