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I recently got a new pre-amp so I have been trying out cables from the cable company. Well I have to tell you the differences are so slight that in a blind test I could not tell the difference. I'm now trying to find the least expensive cable that sounds good. I wonder if this is just my pre-amp. I'm not complaining about the sound. I just expected the difference in cables to be greater.
Follow Ups:
It is indeed possible not hear any differences. The variables that create differences are many. The ability of your system to resolve such differences is a big one. To the other extreme issues like the source impedences can have affects.Unfortunately, reported differences of one cable versus another are so affected by these variables as to render these reports irrelevant. Some claims as to reasons for these differences are dubious at best.
I know of one manufacturer who goes on about things like triboelectric charges and dielectric charge and it is clear he is either deceiving his readers or doesn't understand the basics of such things. Triboelectric discharges only become a factor when a cable is in motion and only substancially so. When you consider the impedences in consumer audio gear these affects are so low as to render these charges as inconsequential. "Tribo" discharge always manifests itself as loud crackles and pops, not as degradation of signals in terms of soundstage and imaging, and other low-signal detail aspects. The these discharges are only a factor in circuits where the source impedences are very high and inductive in nature, like from an electric guitar pickup or microphone. When the inherant source impedences are low, these dicharges only are a factor in very high signal-to-noise situations like in detectors used in particle physics research, telemetry or in nuclear engineering. In these cases S/N ratios are in the magnitude of 170dB or higher. In our world the noise floor sits on average at about 110-115dB, well above where these affects can be even detected, let alone perceived in any way. They are down in the noise, substancilally so. And again, the cable must be flexing AND moving for these triboelectric affects to occur in the first place.
He also makes claims about dielectric charge in insulators in cables as both having a very high level (100mv) and taking days or weeks to discharge or "relax" as he puts it. This is not true. In fact, he mentions if you take a cable out of a box and measure the charge on the cable he claims he has seen 100mv on his multi-meter. Of course, anyone who does this work knows that measuring a dielectric charge with modern digital voltmenter is deceptive. The impedence of the imput of these devices is very high the resulting voltage measured is also very high as a result.
When the cable is in place in an audio system the loads are so low as to render these charges down in the low milli-volts range (or lower), and they discharge and are gone in micro-seconds. The time contants of discharge are known and very short in duration (usually in micro-seconds) at the capcitances and impedences involved here. These time constants are also not affected by "biasing" or other schemes being used. They remain constant. He is using these assumptions (or deceptions) to explain cable break-in. The actual physics do not support these dubious claims.
So take into consideration the many numerous variables involved here and understand the only thing that matters is what works in your situation. If you do not hear a difference you may not be in the situation that either allows one, or in other words the variables are not stacked up for you to have a difference. That may be good for you. Cables, and the quest for the ultimate cable tweek can be costly. Consider yourself fortunate you're not in that trap.
Edits: 11/24/12 11/24/12 11/24/12 11/24/12 11/24/12 11/24/12
"He is using these assumptions (or deceptions) to explain cable break-in. The actual physics do not support these dubious claims."
Just curious, what do you think the actual physics is for cable break-in? Assuming you think that cable break-in is real, of course. Now, if you think that cable break-in is not real, what is the physics that is disobeyed when folks report improvements for cable break-in?
I do know the sound changes over time with cables. But the reasons purported by this manufacturer are not the most likely candidates.
What I have observed (and measured when I did this research many years ago at MIT), was the gradual change is a result of the interface(s) between wire and device. The connection and the points where this occurs. The wire to the connector, & the connector to connector contact point. Valence bonding, oxidation, compression factors (at a molecular level) and numerous other variables have far more affect on electrical charateristics like R, I & L, and these do vary in values over time.
I just broke my new power cords and interconnects in on the Audiodharma Cable Cooker for several days and had them cryo'd. I also plan to use Quicksilver Gold contact enhancer on all connectors. Better safe than sorry.
The affects claimed from people who are proponents of cryo, cable cookers and such have never been documented as quantifiable phenomenon. While changes in sound are perceived, they are not likely due to things like the crystalline structure of copper or silver, the insulation dialectrics, tribo issues or any of that. This is based on assumptions made through observation, leaving them in the realm of unproven theory.For instance it's like me putting 100% pure h2o in a glass that has salt in the glass. I do not tell you the water was pure, or that the glass had salt in it. I ask you to taste and tell me what you perceive. By tasting the water from this glass you might say the water wasn't pure in the first place. Or you may correctly assume the glass was contaminated. Or you may conclude some unseen angel put salt in before I handed it to you. Or some combination of each. If I don't tell you the facts, your subjective taste test alone cannot with certainty tell you what the truth is. You come to a conclusion based on subjective testing & observation.
Many ideas put forth by audiophiles and audiophile companies are sometimes incorrect conclusions based in subjective observation and subsequent erroneous conclusions. And they are sometimes self-sustaining. Like the idea of OFC wire. There is no conclusive peer reveiwed evidence anywhere, (scientific, academic or otherwise meaning reliable sources without pecuniary intrest that is) proving that OFC has any affect vs regular high purity copper. Only subjective listening tests conducted in uncontrolled conditions with many many variables that could account for the differences observed. The amount of torque applied to the connections being ONLY ONE good example.
In fact the prevailing tests, peer reviewed, in the academia say there is no correlation between OFC and signal changes in cables in general. Remember, OFC was orignally developed to reduce oxidation (green stuff) inside cable jackets and insulations, which makes them more prone to mechanical failure. This was an issue for aerospace applications and is what lead to the development of OFC wire in the first place. I was involved in that development many years ago at MIT, so I know the origin first hand.
I have only seen a handful of cable manufacturers deal with issue of bonding connectors to wire. This is the single biggest source of cable signal anomalies and subsequent signal change over time. Very few audiophile cable companies use molecular bonding techniques (exothermically welded connections, for instance) in making their connections. This may account for much of the so-called break-in issues. Many use soldered connections, or crimped or pressure fitted connection, but few use things like CADWELL bonding or the like.
We made studies back in the late 70's at MIT in regards to this issue and found crimped connections changed in electrical characteristics, particularly in resitivity, over several weeks once manufactured. This was due to relaxing mechanical stresses in the struture of the metals of the crimped interface. These affects included changes in inherant or average impedence (frequency dependancy), capcitance and even certain levels of inductance, as well a resitivity and piezoelectric affects. Also it had a variable affect on triboelelctric charges particularly if the connections were jacketed in some fashion. All of which within the values capable of effecting audio frequencies and certainly RF frequencies. Using a solder connection reduced the time frame and variance stabilized faster. Silver or tin solder only differentiated in terms of the affected piezo and triboelectric anonmalies. Exothermically welded connections where discovered to not have any of these affects and in fact showed time constants for these affects to be within the timeframe of only the cooling period after making the connection.
I do know, and the actual data & physics supports it, that these issues have the affect described by people who break-in cables. We measured it at MIT and I have heard it as well.
Now this is real data to support the POSSIBLE actual reason for cable break-in times. (I'm not saying this is what is happeneing ... however...) This data already exists and is peer reveiwed. This would be a better starting point then assumptions based on subjective listening A/B comparision and assumptions based on what are certainly a multitude of variables in uncontrolled situations. I'm not saying people aren't hearing a difference, I just dissagree with reasons being used to explain the phenomenon. Mostly made by people trying to sell something and then becoming self sustaining like any legend observed. We once thought ships would fall off the end of the earth until we got data saying the earth was round and gravity existed. While religion kept the earth flat, now it's money driving myths to promulgate onward. Not data.
Be careful what you spend money on. It may be better to be safe than sorry you spent money poorly based on self-propagated myth.
Edits: 11/24/12 11/24/12
"exothermically welded connections"
So that would be what... Spot welding? The Cadweld stuff doesn't look at all appropriate for the power levels and conductor sizes involved in home audio. And then there are the thousands of connections within the gear mounted with and connected by solder, what's a few more?
"Now this is real data to support the POSSIBLE actual reason for cable break-in times."
Data? I don't see no stinkin' data...
Possible? What isn't?
Since I've never noticed any cable break-in I can't speak to it from personal experience, but I am not all that convinced that your experiences are transferable. What were the magnitude of the changes and the power levels?
Rick
"The affects claimed from people who are proponents of cryo, cable cookers and such have never been documented as quantifiable phenomenon. While changes in sound are perceived, they are not likely due to things like the crystalline structure of copper or silver, the insulation dialectrics, tribo issues or any of that. This is based on assumptions made through observation, leaving them in the realm of unproven theory."If the cause and effect has never been documented how can you claim that changes in sound are NOT due to things like changes in crystalline structure and insulation dialectrics? Just because a phenomenon has not been peer reviewed or documented doesn't mean it is not real. If we had to wait for every unusual phenomenon in audio to be peer reviewed and documented we would still be back in the 1980s. And who is going to do the peer review? AES, MIT, NASA, Stereophile, DARPA, NIST? Some theories are implausible, depending on who is weighing the theories, but if one begins throwing out all theories that are implausible one just might wind up with nothng. We cannot get absolute proof for many things in audio, evidence but not proof. THAT's why there has been a cable debate for 30 some odd years. Furthermore, it does NOT seem implausible that cable performance would be enhanced by changes in crystalline structure or insulation dielectrics; that actually seems like a valid theory. Meanwhile audiophiles, especially competitive audiophiles, continue to use cryogenics and break-in devices without absolute proof. So it goes.
Edits: 11/25/12
Hey Sudz,
It really should not be any surprise that you
have a hard time in hearing significant
differences between cables.
You may be able hear some slightly audible variances, but
the changes more likely are not the worth the cost
for some cables.
You have no control over the damage the cross-overs
circuits are doing to the audio signals, so changing
cables will have little influence on how your system
will sound.
We suggest that you replace these circuits, if you can,
and use non-crossover circuits.
If you need some circuits we will be glad to send you
several designs.
Curtis J
Well there you go ...
It amazes how people find the exact & precise cause for some issue (which have a multitude of variables) when they are selling something. Ironic how the "solution" is always what they happen to offer for sale, other variables notwithstanding.
Nuff said.
list your system on 'inmate systems' so that we can determine if any difference at all can be heard in your equipment combination. without that, we can assume that your Yorx table top stereo can only tell if the ac wire isnt plugged in.
if you want to be taken seriously, you need to be more forthcoming.
...regards...tr
So let me see, posting his stuff will allow him to hear the difference.
Hmm ...
I get your point, but the OP's question is more rhetorical than a precise question, I'm sure.
Knowing his gear line up would only marginally touch upon the multitude of variables involved in this particular issue.
No, the question was designed as it always is to find some fault in the OPs system to 'explain' his lack of understanding of the wonders he was told to expect but didnt find. When his system didnt turn out to be all that crappy (Yorx was suggested more than once), the accuser retreated back under his rock.
Hi Tommy, who are you addressing?
although it applies to all. if you havent listed your system in 'inmate systems, please do so.
...regards...tr
Tommy, you dont really have to work that hard to find out. Not as hard as you did filling out your own section:
Suds posted this a few days back. I hope you're not going to suggest his system isnt resolving enough to come to his conclusions....
Arc vt-100mkIII
Arc Ls-27
Arc Ph-5
Vpi Aries
Gamut Cd-1
Dynaudio C-1's
Audience power cables
Acoustic Zen speaker cables
Cardas phono cable
Audience Interconnects
Custom TT stand
Billy bags stand
Vpi sds
Mcintosh Mr-78
I think you would have to be somewhat gifted to explain what's wrong.....
Where is sudz? He has expensive cables listed....so what's wrong with this picture?
dave_b
they just dont do it for him....
Yeah, he needs to get MIT's! Hee Hee :O))
dave_b
I just threw up in my mouth a bit.....
MIT cables make an excellent anti-memetic:O) Cheers!
dave_b
I find it really funny that there was no further comment on that..
that Prop Heads is referred to as 'the desert' when it's accessed in exactly the same way as the cable forum.........
Maybe it should be renamed: How about Honesty Hall?
I miss some of the more technical and scientific discussions that went on here. "I don't hear it", "I don't like the sound of it" gets old really quick for me. T
Jean-Francois Lessard 2A3 PP amp
Marantz 7T Preamp
Klipschorns w/ALK xovers
Sony CX350&CX-230 cd changers
MSB link DACIII w24/96k
MSB digital director
Luxman PD-272 TT
Technics M85 Cassette
ok, so you have the good fortune of finding out that you dont need to spend much if anything on that particular potential upgrade for your particular tastes in sound.
if it aint broke, dont fix it.
move on to speaker cables, power cords etc and see if upgrading there makes a positive diff. for you or not.
-andre d
Well there are a lot of differences between cables... I got interested in audio in the first place by experimenting with Thorston Losch's Ubyte cables, 16 KW RF transmitter coax, silver wire wrap wire, Litz wire and microwave cable etc.
That being said, is the sound related to the $ spent... not really. Is the difference huge... can be but usually pretty subtle or even indistinguishable in double blind tests. Try some DIY cables using various designs and pick what you like in your system. Cheaper, much cheaper that way.
Especially considering that moving the speakers (toe in our out, distance from wall and between each other) some fake trees or a well placed wall hanging or some traps can make a much larger difference.
You forgot to drink the Kool-Aid before listening.
Try again!
Manufactures tend to avoid the issue of what power cord to include or recommend by putting an IEC chassis mount on. This did not used to be the case. If you try this once, you will never go any further.
Why do I not do this? Basically, because of resell issues.
I must say also, that I once hard wired to my outlet to my amp. It was magnificent but unsafe. Don't try it. All contacts are disastrous!
Guese we can assume you've never soldered vacuum tube pins to the tube sockets.
I gave up when I learned that it baked on.
I use Xtreme AV Quicksilver Gold on tube pins, no problems.
Hahahaha etc.
I have never had one tweak or upgrade blow me away but what has happened is a lot of small things have created a better system.Like a drag racer trying to lower his et there are many thinge he has to do all over his car to create a perfect package.
In manufacturing we called that ....'Continuous process improvement'.
However, in manufacturing, the results were measurable in that you threw less stuff in the trash which didn't work to specification.
In your stereo? Opinion rules.
Too much is never enough
So you are really asking about interconnects. The term "cable" is ambiguous since it can cover speaker cables and power cords as well as interconnects.
The interconnects supplied with various pieces of equipment should work perfectly well. Forget about unshielded interconnects. The main trouble with inexpensive interconnects is that the ones I have seen are not very robust and they may be damaged after a while if you change them around or take them out to clean them every once in a while. So, somewhat more expensive ones that appeared to be well made and tough may be more convenient in the long term. Also, the connectors may be gold plated so as to inhibit corrosion.
Difference in sound? If the shielded interconnects have clean connections there is no general reason why they should make a difference in sound at line level. Damaged interconnects or corroded connections can easily make an audible difference.
At phono level, differences in cable capacitance may make an audible difference with some phono cartridges. My cartridge likes some capacitance, and my preamp has control to add some capacitance.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
But we're not talking about damaged cables here, of course. That's the whole point -- do cables make a difference? Looks like the 30 year old debate continueth.
Will it ever end?
Gee, I certainly hope not.
I think you'll continue to get your wish. Some folks are just slow to pick up on discoveries from a mere 40 years ago.
General moderator kicks it over to Cable and the Cable moderator has kicked it to Propeller Head Plaza.Any bets where it is headed next?
Edits: 01/02/12 01/02/12 01/02/12
for a newly registered member.
Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...
..
.
My experience has been that the higher the resolution of a system, the greater the difference cabling can make. Thus, it is quite system dependent. I swapped a few interconnects in and out last night. The differences between the Kimber Hero and the DH Labs BL-1 were negligible, but the Audioquest Jaguar increased the size and height of the images while reducing the hot edge of the top end. They can make a difference, but much depends on your equipment and the cables themselves.
DOH!
Thanks for those that agree.
To thank folks who agree with you in this particular matter is meaningless. It does not make what seems to be a lack of perception any more valid. Perhaps it's simply a wish to skirt the Cable Asylum Mission Statement (see link below). It's far more silly to admit a lack of perception than the audible findings of those who share observations with other audiophiles who may actually identify the exact same sonic signatures and artifacts of particular make/model cables. Furthermore, evaluating sonic differences between various audio devices including cables is not mass hysteria nor magic thinking, it's an essential nature of this audiophile hobby. my 2 pennies
Hmmm, thread relegated to the desert just as I was typing a response to you. Bummer!
I found your post curiously unresponsive to that of the OP. Far as I can tell he's innocent of all of your accusations and was just sharing his experiences...
Anyhow the comment I was trying to make is that I think the disconnect is semantically driven because my experiences more or less match both yours and those of the OP. I would say that most of the time cables have a fairly subtle effect upon the sound, but none-the-less that effect may make a profound difference in my enjoyment. That's simply one of the things that makes home audio so interesting to me.
I find interconnects to need the most TLC but it probably depends a lot on how the gear is implemented and the environment that it's in. And perhaps the sensitivities of the listener to particular artifacts...
Rick
For us middling spenders.. Spending a lot on a cable means NOT spending it on the primary equipment. Which I (FWIW) just always spend it on the primary equipment.
Adding thousands to the cables is not as advancing (for sound) as buying better equipment.
I have nothing against quaality cables.. Just the cost performance vs spending it on primary equipment. (though I have found great conditioning actually makes up for some equipment upgrading.. think power supply in electronics vs external...)
If I were a multi-millionaire.. I'd be in the mega $$$ cable camp too.
The OP posted the message on General AA and the moderator moved it here.
Jim
If that's what you want to believe, go for it. Your happiness is what matters, right? And ignorance is indeed bliss.
the better your system, the more difference the wires make. with constellation electronics, i wouldn't be looking at blue jeans cable.
for all we know its a yorx.
is that the cables are not identified.
A coaxial 50 ohm cable may sound pretty much alike no matter who the manufacturer is.
Stu
Just kidding...... [-;
Not everybody hears things the same way....... If one doesn't notice much change in cables, that's cool. Enjoy!!
My valve pre has a z out of about 600 ohms? (an NoS 12AU7 in cathode follower mode (Brimar 13D5) and feeds two valve amps whose input impedance is many times that of the average SS amp. The major difference I hear in my system for the longish pre-power run is noise and RFI.The current quite long interconnects (14 feet) are coaxial digital network cable, bendy but still stiff. 'BRAND-REX LTD DIGITAL 1701248 20AWG SHIELDED TYPE 60degC (UL)’. I think it's LAN cable Char Z is 50 ohm IIRC.
It isn't bright, or tizzy, or boomy or muddy or anything. Some real stereo recordings have so much depth it's weird, though. And all the music sounds just fine. It is a bit quieter than the Neuman mike cable I was using, and it was cheaper.
I do use some VDH IC's, between sources and the pre-but mostly I make up my own.
Short spkr wires are a GOOD idea.
On this matter, you're not crazy!
I never thought I'd say this, sudz, but your comments sound perfectly reasonable.
-Bob
In my previous post, I failed to mention that I also tried some Transparent interconnects. You know. The ones with the magic black box (filter). They sure tamed the high-frequency zippiness but turned the Merlins into real snoozers. No life whatsoever. Ultimately I decided that speakers that require certain cables must be fundamentally flawed and went with a pair of Dunlavy SC-IVa's, an incredible speaker.
Interconnects can make a huge difference. When I purchased a pair of Merlin VSM SEs I had some high-end Audioquest interconnects. The speakers were so bright they ran everyone out of the room. I then tried Tara Labs. The sound was even worse. At the insistence of the dealer, I bought some Cardas Neutral Reference interconnects. The cables tamed the high end considerably. So some speakers obviously require tuning that can be accomplished with the right cables.
I really think what it comes down to is if you don't hear differences then don't spend a lot of money on cables. Cable differences are very system dependent depending on source and load impedences. I have had some equipment where different cables made very small if any sonic changes while with different equipment the changes were very noticeable. In audio you will never believe anything until you experience it for yourself. Unlike a poster below if you don't hear it you won't believe
Alan
Crazy!....there are huge differences in cables.
You need to spend some time with the cables you have to audition. A few times I have changed out cables and thought the new ones were better. But after a few weeks of listening, out they came.
I hear major differences with cables in my and two other friends' systems.
You CrAzY Sudz! LOL
Monster Sigma-Retro Gold. If you can't hear that, you're deaf.
I have a mint pair of retro Gold IC's that I must sell to pay some bills. All paperwork and aluminum case included!
dave_b
Quote Bob Ohllson(sp): Legitimate double blind tests require that subjects be trained to hear specific artifacts. This is because our hearing ranges over a huge dynamic range like a long fast telephoto lens with a very short depth of field. Appropriate training is virtually impossible with cables and connectors which means one will almost always get a random result that is utterly meaningless in spite of sounding "scientific."
This post appeared in a cable thread(everything rosy), now closed. I thought it was an excellent post, and suitable to this thread. the bordas apparently agreed but for the wrong reason. the bordas, you seem completely disconnected from reality. Of course in these scary days that may be a 'good place'. Pardon me, but I doubt many in the prop head place will be eager to take you up.
Could you explain?? Are you one of the 99% who deny reality and have convinced yourself that radio shack cables are just fine, or are you part of the uber elite who can afford anything but have decided to cast off the shackles of capitalistic pursuits? Maybe if you actually completed a thought and composed a cogent message without cryptic inuendo, I would be able to grasp your golden nuggets of wisdom...or are they just tirds?
dave_b
Edits: 05/20/12
Dude, anyone can read your reply to that post and anyone can read the tripe you posted above here. You know nothing about my systems, yet I know apparently everything about yours.You substantiate nothing, just drone on about jaw-dropping realisim from your cables. You have a problem, brother, you are an embarrassment to audio enthusiasts that use their heads. It would be funny if it wasn't so terribly sad.
I just scanned the entire post and found nothing from you or any interaction between you and I anywhere here....what the fuck is your deal? Of course I don't know you! You DO NOT know me either. All I ask is that you be clear and substantiate your accusations or blanket slams toward me. I notice you just joined last year....I have been an avid audiophile for over 30 years. I have played in bands, attended some of the finest concert halls since I was 15, attend live concerts regularly and most likely have personally owned more high end gear in more environments than most of the well intentioned Prop Heads above. You are an audiophile racist.....you judge without any real understanding or experience comparable with mine. Then again, I can only speculate, do to the fact that you prefer to remain a mystery, so you can remain disconnected from the reality of an actual conversation between two intelligent individuals. Well, one anyway, who eagerly awaits illumination on the finer points of systems matching, cablenomics and why all cables sound the same. Ever wonder why two seemingly identical violins can be valued so differently? Why one is worth hundreds and the other is priceless? It's because some musicians and concert goers can appreciate exceptional tone....not everyone, but some. Going back to what my intent was on a post that somehow got linked to this one (which is uniquely geeky in itself), was that random mixes of people judging subjective and emotional gear/material being played back under experimental conditions with a check list is inherently dumb and will yield useless results. I have owned several $80K systems over the years, as well as $5K systems. I have owned, borrowed and been lent prototype cables from the who's who of the cable world as well. My experience as a musician, audiophile and avid concert goer who has OWNED more of the stuff discussed on threads like these than most, unavoidably offers me a broader basis of understanding regarding topics such as the aforementioned, for which you obliquely and unjustifiably attacked me!
dave_b
Wow. http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=cables&m=156041
and your review recently of the MIT cables, the one that vanished remember? a doozy..............
The review is under the "review section", where it belongs. I still don't get where your coming from at all? I keep waiting for an actual point to be made that is specific and meaningful and with context and some sort of counter response that involves more than re-posting me or being cryptic. Is that so much to ask?
dave_b
In order:
No, it isn't.
That's because you cant read.
Havent re-posted you. not once.
Yes, it is.
Wow...ok, have a nice day! Oh, by the way, I found someone who understands the value of a beutifully useless thing....the Retro Golds ship tommorrow:O)
dave_b
Edits: 05/21/12 05/21/12
run along and pay those bills then.....
Payed the bill:O) Also ordered 2 new pair of Matrix HD23 IC's...I hate when I get those zero interest checks good for one year:O( Have a fun summer protesting with the 99%ers Professor Finski! I hear that Home Depot is gonna run a huge sale for 4th of July on bulk wire....stock up for all your future DIY projects.
dave_b
Finski, are you sure you are slamming the right person? I really have no idea what you are referencing. My only post on this thread was regarding my Retro Gold IC's that I'm gonna sell....are you confusing me with THEBORED post before me ??????????
dave_b
Instead of thousands for cables, buy a decent vintage integrated or preamp with tone controls.....
a
ok, you are crazy.
and you are correct.
If you don't believe it, you won't hear it.
MK
Interesting,
'If you don't believe it then you wont hear it', the mating cry of the lesser spotted audiofool.
And, of course, if you DO believe it, you will.
-Bob
Of course, a prerequisite is that you have associated equipment capable of sufficient resolution to make a difference . . .
you guys arent as sick as the general public thinks you are. actually suggesting moderation and long term listening flies in the face of the accusations i have seen jettisoned in our direction.
methinks this asylum is more of a refuge.
OK, I'll call you crazy. Were the dogs barking when you were comparing cables?
Power cables change things most followed by interconnects then speaker cables. This has been my experience. Also as I upgraded my gear/system I was able to discern cable changes more easily.
ET
Awe-d-0....I absolutely agree
the best way to listen for differences IMO
I agree... slight difference in interconnects, a little more difference in speaker cables.
I have been using anti-cables for my speakers the last few years, and they beat out much more expensive cables on many occasions but only by a little.
I always wonder, why spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars extra on cables, when that money spent on "better" speakers would make a great deal more difference.
I would say that the differences in even phono cartridges is far far greater than in cables. IMHO of course.
,
this is NOT the cable asylum. Get a clue.
I'm not surprised by your findings, but it would be helpful if you specified what your pre is and what cables you tried
I agree with you (the OP)
I had a mix of cables. Most were the cables tossed in the box with a new purchase of a CD/DVD/VCR player (you know, those of the highest 1,000 gage chinese quality) and I also had at least one "Gold End" made by Discwasher that I bought approximately 1980. (yes 1980)
I had some lengths of Mogami Neglex left over from my home installation so decided to not toss it out (shows how much thought I put into cable scraps).
Instead, I thought I'd make some new cables and try it out.
I bought some Neutrik RCA ends for my RCA runs. I also bought some Neutrik XLR ends for my XLR runs and made the cables.
There is no "OMG" difference.
In fact, once I find my (new) digital camera that got lost in my recent move....or (gack) buy another one, I'll probably put some Audioquest wires on ebay so I can get rid of them. These were not in my system and I acquired them in an estate purchase.
I figure someone will pay $25/50 for them :)
...so small and convenient that I have lost and found two of them. Now I have three. Duh.
... of troll-ish topics to post on General Asylum? I only ask because the attacks leveled upon my brain would seem to be both calculated and premeditated.
Your crazy. I think you should have said inexpensive cables sound slightly different. If you have the opportunity try some high end cable's without purchasing them, the difference is not subtle.
Completely agree...my experience has been that difference between 100 dollar power cable and 1000 dollar power cable...amazing... difference between 1000 dollar power cable and 10000 dollar power cable...nice but not as dramatic...hi fi is a lesson in the law of diminishing returns...
How much have you actually experimented with different cables? I was as skeptical as anyone, but I was willing to listen. And it's not always about how much a cable costs. It's about system matching. Some speakers -- like the ones I referenced earlier -- require major taming. If you're willing to listen, I think you will discover that what I'm saying is true.
tmsorosk....ALL cables sound very different...some inexpensive cables sound better than the highest priced spread in some systems
You need to allow the fact that not everybody agrees with you. I hear cable differences but not all the time. Some of the time the differences are significant and other times they are very small or even non-existent. IMHO
Alan
Given that you hear differences only some of the time, how do you know that the differences are caused by the cables and not by you or "the time"?
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I think most folks find a small change they like and have a natural tendency to proclaim the change as some major difference (a'miracle')
I do not spend too much on cables, I would rather spend the big money on the equipment itself, as the 'bang for the buck' best deal.
Naturally many disagree.
We all find our own path in the world, so who am i to try discrediting thier findings.
Then also naturally are those who find wire is, after all, just wire, and any wires with good electrical characteristics are fine, and all those who believe wire can make a big difference are misguided or deluding themselves.
I choose to believe IN MODERATION. So i spend a little more than the minimum on cables.. but not a whole lot more.
To each thier own.
Sudz: how much time are you allowing for each cable, to judge the sound?
...Maybe the cables made your digital sound 20% better with your new pre?
Especially speaker cables. Mu Nordost, Ttransparent and Kimber all sound quite different tonally and how they present the music.
I am only referring to Interconnects. I have not tried speaker cable.
Sudz: What interconnects did you use? And what equipment were you using?
battle stations; entering defcon 5
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