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In Reply to: RE: Is This Why Wires Sound Different? posted by thetubeguy1954 on October 13, 2010 at 10:33:18
A description of the atomic surface of a telescope mirror sounds like it’s a mountain range, if one examines it in a much larger scale say that of the light involved, then one finds the surface is smooth to within say 1/10 wavelength. At a vastly larger scale say that of ones eyesight, the telescope mirror appears to be an incredible model of smoothness.
Such is it with current carrying conductors, you have different scales one can examine it with, all valid depending what level one is dealing at.
It is disappointing to read a blurb like that using real science to paint a picture and then fail to use science to put that in perspective or present any measured improvement in any known property, science in the service of marketing ugh, smells like politics..
Unlike engineering where one can examine the signal at either end of a cable and deduce the equivalent circuit etc, the premise begins with this makes an improvement.
The scientific method would include a detailed electrical analysis of the cables effect on the signals, source and load involved BUT also since the human senses are unavoidably tied to a process which includes what one knows and expects, the secondary question of “is the difference” one hears related to the electrical properties or the knowledge or brain side of it.
A person can firmly believe they have flat hearing response based on how their system sounds, yet it is only when one don’s the headphones and closes their eyes in a hearing test, that you find out what your response curve actually is. People would test vastly better “IF” they had a red light that went on with the tone or the tester winked at you, that is why there are NO clues. If there is a difference with no prior knowledge, then one has proof of some difference, then the question is what is it.
The popularity of two port measurement systems makes such differences easy to quantify, one can simply measure each end of a cable playing music and in several ways, define or even listen to what the differences are.
Lastly, I am not sure the home listener should be all that concerned with how things actually work, knowing too many details may even be troubling.
Ones enjoyment of a music system includes all the prior knowledge, the mood etc, the appearances, while a blind test may not reveal any difference, to the person who spent the money on the doodads in question, they can hear it, it makes them happy so what more could you ask for.
It is mostly when you’re trying to improve something that CAN be heard in blind testing (without prior knowledge) that one must be more concerned with the science / engineering / physics part of tweaking .
Did you ever try that high performance coax as speaker cable? (lmr-400 / belden 9913 style). I have no idea how it sounds (i have not rapidly switched back and forth), but it's electrical properties are VERY good.
Best,
Tom
Follow Ups:
It is disappointing to read a blurb like that using real science to paint a picture and then fail to use science to put that in perspective or present any measured improvement in any known property, science in the service of marketing ugh, smells like politics..
That's a common tactic used by the quacks and charlatans out there.
se
Hello Steve,
I'm sure that you are correct and this tatic is used by some quacks and charlatans out there. That said, according to Bob Smith of Aether Audio/NuForce Inc, Bobstates he used to be a hard-nose, cables-make-no-difference type until he heard something that changed his mind.
It was this that set Bob attempting to discover what caused this difference in sound he heard and he seems to have done at least done a good bit of research which led to the article called "Sub-Debye Phase-Distortion - A New Distortion-Source Model for Conductors"
Bob even provides an explanation of the "Smith Cell" technology that's part of what's inside the product he's now making to reduce the affects of speaker/speaker wires/amps interactions. At the very end of the page Bob also states:
"...The issue is complex enough such that it's not easy to simplify if you don't already have a background in electronics. Standard EM theory is plenty tough enough to begin with, let alone to start throwing in issues such as scalar waves and QM (as Bill pointed out). Could you be more specific about which part you don't understand? There are several issues involved and each is pretty deep stuff in its own right. I'll try to answer back when I can, so please be patient. I'm in "no mans's land" right now in Okachobee, FL and have to drive down the road to hijack an unsecured wifi connection just to get on the net. So... give me some time and I'll do the best I can. Depending on the schedule, I might not get back to you until I get home next week."
Personally I'd like to see the more technically astute amongst us here at AA, ask Bob some pertinent questions. I don't know what my opinion about all this is as of yet and I'll remain open-minded until those here who have a good grasp on standard EM theory, scalar waves and QM starts asking Bob difficult questions and then should they find Bob's responses are lacking, then I'll decide what I believe.
Bob Smith can be contacted via my link below to Smith Cell Technology Revealed or at this email address directly engineering@aetheraudio.com Hopefully Bob will answer here.
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
SETriodes Forum -- Central Florida Audio Society -- Fullrange Drivers
==============================================================
"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of
sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils."
- William Shakespeare
That said, according to Bob Smith of Aether Audio/NuForce Inc, Bobstates he used to be a hard-nose, cables-make-no-difference type until he heard something that changed his mind.
So?
We're all human and as such are all susceptible to perceiving differences even when there may not be any actual audible differences. So I don't see where this admission necessarily lends any more credibility to his arguments.
It was this that set Bob attempting to discover what caused this difference in sound he heard and he seems to have done at least done a good bit of research which led to the article called "Sub-Debye Phase-Distortion - A New Distortion-Source Model for Conductors"
And this is yet another tactic of the quack and the charlatan. Attempting to explain something which has yet to be demonstrated.
The first thing you do is establish that cables produce actual audible differences. Then you go about trying to discover the cause.
He hasn't done this. Instead, it takes it on faith that cables produce actual audible differences.
So his article is really nothing more than masturbatory marketing literature.
Personally I'd like to see the more technically astute amongst us here at AA, ask Bob some pertinent questions.
And I'd like to see Bob actually demonstrate that cables produce actual audible differences.
Until he does that, his is just another in a long series of "theories" advanced to "explain" that which has yet been shown to exist.
se
Steve said
"That said, according to Bob Smith of Aether Audio/NuForce Inc, Bobstates he used to be a hard-nose, cables-make-no-difference type until he heard something that changed his mind.
So?"
To which I reply, AMEN.
This falls into the same category as "even my wife - who hates audio - heard it."
Anecdotal stories such as these are a soothing balm for those who desperately seek reassurance that their positions are valid.
For the record, I am a subjectivist but recognize - and admit publically - that bias undoubtedly colors my opinions, and what I think I hear. I came to terms with this a long time ago, and sleep well at night.
Larry
This falls into the same category as "even my wife - who hates audio - heard it."
Oh yeah. That's always been one of my favorites. I used it in a letter from a "satisfied customer" in the Audiophile Pricetag spoof I wrote some years back.
Anecdotal stories such as these are a soothing balm for those who desperately seek reassurance that their positions are valid.
Yes. There seems to be a tremendous amount of insecurity in this hobby which only helps make the marketing more effective.
For the record, I am a subjectivist but recognize - and admit publically - that bias undoubtedly colors my opinions, and what I think I hear.
And that makes you something of a rarity; a true subjectivist.
I came to terms with this a long time ago, and sleep well at night.
Yup. Same here.
se
I'd never seen that one before. It's in my bookmarks now :-).
Just remember, if your system doesn't suck , you'll need to spend $400-$500 on an S/PDIF cable. And I'd be more than happy to sell you one of course!
I'd never seen that one before. It's in my bookmarks now :-).
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
se
Insecurity.
COOL! What'd I win, Groucho?
se
:) :)
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