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In Reply to: Thank you for the reply, May, but... posted by robert young on April 14, 2007 at 11:35:54:
<< Cryogenics substantively changes material properties, and domestic deep freezing involves temporary expansion and contraction. They are significantly different. >>Why do you say this?
If your assertion were true, there must be some "threshold" temperature that "changes material properties" beyond just a "temporary expansion and contraction". So what would you propose as this threshold temperature?
And a few more questions:
- Would the threshold temperature be the same for all materials?
- Would the duration of exposure below the threshold temperature matter?
- Would the rate of re-heating to room temperature matter?I would assert that things are perhaps not so black-and-white as "cryogenics" versus "domestic deep freezing"...
Follow Ups:
...of circumstance from room temp all the way down to liquid N. There's one known articulation point, way, way down -- but little is known of the sonic effects at any other point. Moreover, time must become a double variable: Time immersed, and time effectual.We can't say the two methods are the same, or different, until more points are entered on the curves.
So are you actually engaged in testing different temperatures to see where the cryoed effect kicks in?
< < Cryogenics substantively changes material properties, and domestic deep freezing involves temporary expansion and contraction. They are significantly different. > >< Why do you say this?
I suspect he said it becuase it is established scientific fact.
> If your assertion were true, there must be some "threshold" temperature that "changes material properties" beyond just a "temporary expansion and contraction". So what would you propose as this threshold temperature?Yes there are threshold tempuratures. If you want to know what they are I suggest you consult a genuine metallurgist or some literature on the subject.
> And a few more questions:
- Would the threshold temperature be the same for all materials?
I don't need to consult any metallurgist for this one. No.
> - Would the duration of exposure below the threshold temperature matter?That would be a question for an expert.
> - Would the rate of re-heating to room temperature matter?I can answer this one. Soemtimes yes sometimes no.
> I would assert that things are perhaps not so black-and-white as "cryogenics" versus "domestic deep freezing"...I would assert that this stuff has already been investigated by people who actually know how to inverstigate these things.
Thanks for the funniest line of the week.
Interesting point. Not being a materials guy I turned to that source of all knowledge, Google. Although what I found was not very satisfying, in no case did I find reference to a threshold temperature. It sounds like lower and longer is better but that at any temperature some of the whatever they are will do whatever it is that they do. And as you soak it, more of the one's that will do it, have.It's just amazing what you can learn from the internet...
True cryo involves taking the material below a temperaure whiere its properties "flip" rapidly to a different state.This applies to metals undergoing treatment for physical properties - hardness etc.
There are lots of ambiguities w.r.t other materials, many not exhibiting a cryo flip.
I doubt whether anyone can scientificly predict the effect of sticking the whole of your CDP in the cooler. Hence the sujective "it sounds better" in the absence of anything else.
From what little I've found black and white, as in the transfer function of B&W film seems similar to this process. A flip would imply a positive feedback mechanism. Any chance you could point me to an on-line reference?
The implications is that a certain temperature needs to be reached before the effect is noticable, and that the change is permanent (ie not reversible).But this is an advert for their products!
At least it had pictures of copper. Most sites have about the same information but mostly focused on steel. Very likely the plot of temperature vs effect is an S curve and I wish I could find some data showing what it looks like. Oh well...
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