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"There has been a lot of banter on the various chat rooms regarding items like the Clever Little Clock and other tweaks of suggested worth, suspicious origin and intent, or what have you… the case being that they fly in the face of common sense and the accepted engineering principles of today's audio-world. Simply put, this stuff is whacky and is of such dubious origin, that no same person should take them seriously. Seriously..."
Follow Ups:
HiAs there is no "life safety" issue involved with "hifi’, the people in that business are free to sell anything they want, any way they want.
All around us are plenty of other markets and products which are sold the same way.
When no ones life is at risk and your talking about disposable income, anything goes or nearly.I think it helps to think about the situation like those trying to sell to you see it.
RULE#1 The consumer reaction or impression you can create is the most important thing, far below you have the technical details.
For example, millions of people have bought Gas line Magnetizers and most have experienced better gas mileage.
You couldn’t convince these purchasers they were wrong as they experienced it first hand closed case, period. Clearly to them the manufacturers explanation about how the magnet works is exactly what is happening.On the flip side are the dread engineering faction who being chemists say "BUT magnetism has NO impact on the gasoline at all"
They say "look, treated gas has exactly the same energy, same burn rate, everything is the same as untreated gas, this can’t work as described".So here we have the identical subjectivist vs objectivist or Engineer vs Golden ear argument one has arguing about power cables, magic clocks and such.
Who is right? how does the gas line magnet work?
People who decide to buy one have made a subconscious decision to take action to improve the situation, intending to improve.
They further "invest" mentally by attaching the magnet themselves, probably getting dirty too.
Now, they get in the car to drive, expecting better mileage and they get it.
Subconsciously, they then drive in a way which is more conservative and so, get better gas mileage while the actual gasoline is unchanged.It is always the ones selling who are threatened by and are against any kind of reality check too, it is funny in hifi how they have been effective enough to convince many that in this one little area, ones perception follows a different rules than everywhere else.
A couple weeks ago I went to a local AES meting where the subject was audible illusions.
That was cool, examples of how easily your ears are fooled and can be fooled by adding in visual information too.
On the "user" side, In Golden ear hifi however, limiting ones impression to that gathered by ears alone is considered heresy essentially because there are fewer chances to be fooled or manipulated subconsciously.How things work becomes more clear if you read up on marketing and businesses which run on disposable income. It is actually kind of distressing to know how much they know about how people work and are manipulated subconsciously. One should keep in mind that TV exists as such a powerful force because of the influence it has, more precisely how much selling that influence is worth.
Best,
...anyone who tries a new device of whatever sort is obviously *listening* more conservatively. It all makes sense.Whereas if we all pressed the pedal to the metal (so to speak) in audio, all differences would disappear. Way to go!
And speaking of "businesses which run on disposable income...It is actually kind of distressing to know how much they know about how people work and are manipulated subconsciously." Indeed that must explain the $5 Starbucks latte -- not the flavor, not the kick it gives you or the warmth... but sheer manipulation. The bastids!
cheers,AJ
I contend that we are both atheists; I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours
I haven't heard much about that savior of cd audio in a while.
To rid the glare demons from CD's, but this one I missed. I really must read some more of CJ's articles. They are hysterical, the desperate plea for psychiatric intervention notwithstanding.cheers,
AJ
I contend that we are both atheists; I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours
And BTW, in case anybody is wondering, Clark is just trying to up the hit count of the linked page. Hit counters don't care if the person's view is positive or negative.
...what I do enjoy doing is eliciting irrational and supercilious (and if I'm lucky, foulmouthed) responses such as vettracer's. Unable to confront the issues, these sorts indulge themselves instead in ad hominem ineffective invective.It's like watching very young children in a playpen, amusing for a while, but then one goes off to be among the grown-ups.
Kinda like looking in the mirror Clark?Come on, you can try and paint a picture that us engineers are all naysayers and we discount anything we can't explain, but that really is not true. Any engineer worth his pay understands that measurements and calculations do not tell all and there is quite a bit of art in what we do.
On the other hand if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, looks like a duck, and has feathers, it is more likely a duck than not.
That said, you wrote at least two editorials and many more posts extoling the virtues of the Reality Check CD duplicator. Does the fact that it turned out to be nothing more than just a cd duplicator change your opinion of its effect on your cd's? Do you still use it and recommend it to others?
"Come on, you can try and paint a picture that us engineers are all naysayers and..." First, I was not the painter, Dave Clark was; you should read the text more carefully. Second, I'm an engineer too, of optical systems and audio (a Lifetime Member of the AES in fact), so let's just say I speak from the belly of the beast.Then: To my short list of charges I should have added implacable irrationality, viz:
"Does the fact that it turned out to be nothing more than just a cd duplicator change your opinion of its effect on your cd's?" First, the Reality Check device always was, now is, and forever more shall be, a (standalone) CD duplicator; that was never in question, so the writer's implication here is irrational. Second, why should anything change my opinion of the sonic results? They were, are, and forevermore shall be exactly as stated.
"Do you still use it and recommend it to others?" Of course I do. Geez Luiz! The one I use, is the one I bought. The one I now recommend is different, the original being no longer on the market.
"First, the Reality Check device always was, now is, and forever more shall be, a (standalone) CD duplicator; that was never in question, so the writer's implication here is irrational."Sorry Clark, Your previous writings described the Reality Check firmware as key to the results. From Positive Feedback issue 21;
"The idea is to align all the transient overtones of each note to fall together in time, as they naturally do in analog but not (for some reason) in digital. The principle element of his software algorithm addresses that problem. And indeed, what one hears is sharper transients. Jitter and error correction are addressed by him too, but secondarily."
That description seems like more than just a standalone duplicator.
I don't disagree with you that CDR's can make surprising improvments to commercial cd's, but that is due more to the poor manufacturing quality of cd's than some special Reality Check firmware realigning the transient overtones.
...I made the point, and often, that this was not a computer-attached item; that in fact, that was part of its benefit. The frimware was (obviously) applied to the duplicator.I can imagine no more willful a misrepresentation of my articles, than yours.
clark
;-)
But maybe one day in the future, as they better understand what to measure, they will be able to accurately measure whether subjectivist audiophiles are 95.975% delusional.
Right now, they are just have to settle for 90-100%.cheers,
AJ
I contend that we are both atheists; I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why I reject yours
Clark:C'mon.
Someone with esquisite taste in music and a good ear might not be able to build a good sounding amp. And a very talented engineer who is TONE DEAF might not be able to either.
But most people who do engineering in the audio industry usually have SOME appreciation for what they consider to be good sound.
Just because a lot of these engineers have agendas handed down to them by the marketing bosses in the ivory towers does not mean they LIKE what they are forced to build. To think engineers are just "out to screw the music loving audiophile" is a child-like view of the universe and does not account for the financial realities of people who work for companies whose credo is "give the masses what they want and profit - quality is not mandatory".
99% of the population thinks compressed 128K MP3's sound good enough and their small and portable size is worth any "negligible" sound quality loss. This is why audiophile quality sound is in jeopardy - not because of "inept engineers" out to ruin hi-end.
I believe there IS a problem in our world - a prevailent attitude about having "a stunning array of different crap" instead of a few really nice quality things. We don't want a few nice things. We want it all - and we want it cheap and we don't care if it comes from China.
I blame North American greed and the dilution of traditional values - not "audiophile hating engineers".
Besides. I too wish that 'the classics' and other good music was as popular as Britney Spears. But it's not.
Time to get over it. We're discriminating people. That's why we should cherish the properly recorded music we DO have available to us, and support the people (AND ENGINEERS) who value making this music available by BUYING as much of IT as we can afford.
There's really not much else we can do. We can only vote with our wallets.
But I will admit some engineers ARE DEAF and think that just because they graduated with a B.Sc. in electrical engineering they are an instant authority on good sound. These guys give the GOOD engineers out there a bad name. Audio is a talent and requires a blend of hard science with art and an ear for good sound. Failing that, you get equipment with amazing white papers that sounds... far less than amazing.
Cheers,
Presto
x
Life is too short to take ANYTHING literally.*Part* of the process is to form an opinion based on personal experience..not hearsay or conjecture.
The bigger problem is snake oil vendors selling people things they dont need and telling them lies.Thats why many of us with brains dont buy inot this crap and want to warn others.
If someone wants to listen and judge for themselves they don't need to be warned. It's their time and money and they may come to the same conclusion as you or possibly not, but either way they can decide for themselves.
...the regulators! Call the police! Someone, please, and get these people outtahere!
Freedom to defraud, eh?
Hi TomIt seems to me In more recent times Madison avenue et al has pretty much taken over as the major influence in our society.
We depend on its primary commercial pathway (TV) for most of our world information and as a result our culture is being twisted to make us better, thoughtless consumers and like now, to have only seen one side of world events for many years.Along with the Madison Ave’s "ethically blind cash vacuum" liberal approach has come another step to condition us, the Politically Correct movement.
This movement at its core is essentially the proposition that one can pick up a dog turd at the clean end and smoke it like a fine cigar and that you are a backwards fool not to see it that way.In the old days engineers would get serious and argue about cables, what they can and can’t do from an electrical standpoint, now, most just laugh when you talk exotic cables.
The knowledge base in engineering has diverged so far from the hifi market’s lore that it is another world, like Alchemy and Chemistry, Crystal healing and Penicillin, Pyramid power and power plants.In many cases, people in hifi spend money on things they believe and enjoy as fine cigars, who’s job is it to tell them other wise?. No ones job, the only "Jobs" there are that pay are in selling and perpetuating the doggie cigars.
On the flip side are many mfr’s who’s posture is perfection, who’s products are marketed in mass market chains. Go to a mass retailer and ask to hear the best system they have. No wonder most people think good sound is a couple dice cube speakers and a show box sub woofer flat to 150Hz.
Here is it also the sales expedient at work.
Best,Tom Danley
How's things where it warmer now?
I don't see how they are defrauding anyone. If someone believes that the product may make a difference, it is their money to do with what they want. Also, the company in question offers a 30 day money back guarantee so, if they do not perform up to expectations, they can be returned and the purchaser's money refunded.btw, I do not believe that these can make a difference and I will not purchasing the product(s) in question. but others have the option of trying them and returning them if not satisfied.
Cheerswelly
I went to a restaurant that serves "breakfast at any time". So I ordered French Toast during the Renaissance.
nt
At the very least these purveyoys of snake oil, these con artists, these unspeakable wretches have your money to play with in the meantime. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that they have a favorable short-term bank arrangement that gives them 10% or better on cash deposits, that being the source of their immense accrued wealth. And you suckers fall for it. Keep going with that warranty, Johnny, and you'll be making the schemers richer.
Those unbelievable bastards with their warranties. Sheesh, if it doesn't work, just return it for a full refund. The Attorney General should throw them all in prison for such a devious plot! :)
Welly---Well a con man figures on people not getting wise to the con, he counts on the mark's cooperation.We often make laws to protect the weak and silly-minded, I think that's often a good thing to do. This can get political real fast.
In point of fact, under the applicable federal law (and the law of many states) any advertiser is required to be able to substantiate factual claims it makes in advertisements. The chief federal enforcer of these things is the Federal Trade Commission.Unfortunately for us all, the FTC, through successive administrations, beginning in 1980, has largely abandoned this task.
If you read the ads for these tweaks carefully, you will notice that they are carefully phrased to avoid making factual claims. Somehow, I don't think that's an accident.
Who wants to spend their butter on the lawyer's bread?
...FTC investigation of the audio cable business! I was there, heard it all. These people seemed *really upset* that claims for wires were being believed -- of course later I realized that lawyers and psychologists would be the chief beneficiaries of the expenditures required to conduct the examinations...That, and no longer are cables considered the snake oil they once were, save for a recalcitrant few.
"That, and no longer are cables considered the snake oil they once were, save for a recalcitrant few."At the AES??? Are you serious? Go to an AES convention and start discussing special cables and see what kind of reception you get. Better yet, give a presentation on the subject, and look for anyone in the audience not rolling his eyes!
...cables were not de rigeur even in the high end. That's what I meant.
bunch of bozos, don't you mean Homeland Security?
...along with the freedom to advance. That's the freedom I cherish.
You don't know what you're talking about. Every decision you have made without our noble assistance is WRONG! Get on the wagon, pal, and enjoy our tender mercies through continuous component upgrades; only therein lies the True Path to Happyness.
> The bigger problem is snake oil vendors selling people things they
> dont need and telling them lies.Thats why many of us with brains dont
> buy inot this crap and want to warn others.According to the D after your name you would appear to be in the audiophile cable business? Hmmm.
.
thinning my hair or cutting into my sex life."At this point I don't EVEN care about the thinning hair part...
Enjoyed that article, and will probably equally enjoy the ruckous that will unfold hear around it, which will be brought to us by the usual suspects, sporting the usual viewpoint(s).
History repeats itself hear on a regular basis!
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
...worth saying. "Enjoyable"? Maybe when you're sitting on the can and can sh*t it all out. These Belts and these Kaits and their gnomish apologists ENJOY the controversy, profit from it even. I say, let's all shut up and read Stereophile.
properly, decided to march to the beat of the one and only true drum, came to your senses, decided to speak for said washed masses...etc.If RBG can become a subjectivist for 2007 (only about 325 days left for HIM) certainly you can toe the objectivist line- at least for the shortest month of the year. Remain strong, and, uh, vigilant!
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
that the author makes no point whatsoever. just trying to please both sides, if you wish. for all I care, positive-feedback has zero credibity. over and that.
to print his wife's positive findings with the Peter Belt "Photo In The Fridge" tweak. I'm assuming it was something more that, "Honey, print this", "Sure Darling".Here's the juicey, or is it fruity, part:
--
I followed another of Belt’s suggestions, with information gleaned from an article entitled "What a Mess!!! An alternative view of reality" on the Belt Electronics web page. In the article, Belt asserts that photographing a person affects them adversely, and that if you place a photograph of yourself as an infant or small child along with a current photograph of yourself in a plastic bag in the freezer, you will improve your listening experience. Does this change the sound of your audio equipment? It doesn’t?it changes you, and your enjoyment of the music, and the effect will follow you everywhere. I have my photos in the freezer, and it has not only improved my enjoyment of music at home, but at fellow audiophiles homes nearby, and as far away as Las Vegas during this year’s CES. Okay, skeptics, don’t dismiss this until you try it. Freezing your photographs costs you nothing but the loss of looking at the pictures, since they’ll have to stay in the freezer forever. It costs you nothing, and the results are stunning. I tried it because I was skeptical, and my photos have been in the freezer ever since.
--That's priceless, especially the part about the tweak improving the enjoyment of the music "... as far away as Las Vegas during this year’s CES", simply fantastic.
The me Clark have you tried this tweak yourself? If so would you kindly share you findings?
TIA
No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
The CLC and pebbles have crossed the line on tweeks. Clocks and rocks in a jar sitting in the corner of a room. Come on.
...but I propose that the line be redrawn back to where it once was, circa 1988, when cables were snake oil, CDs were perfect and needed no foolish "tweaking", and Absolute Polarity was unhearable.Those were the days!
We talked about this subject last week on our blog... with a slightly different take (and FYI, flames > dev/null. Sorry.):
> > It is easier to point out who is wrong> >Are you referring to: " Audiophile 101: The Science" as an example of something that is so very wrong?
I'm a physicist by training and you tell me I should know better? Better than what? Better than you, that's who! And I do. And I'm here to tell you that you're full of it.I don't have to listen to your miserable, self-righteous defense. Me and my buddies like Jim Austin, PhD, don't even have to listen to whatever, anything, because we received instruction in the rules of physics in college and university and by God! until some Einstein of Audio comes along to upset the applecart -- not gonna happen! -- the immutable laws of physics govern audio as they govern us all.
Give it up.
... not about what it means to be a scientist, not about the history of science, not about how ideas propogate and form theories that are later proved or disproved as science and knowledge advances, ......and not about how The more you know, The more you know you don't know.
If anyone else is reading this, don't be bamboozled. They don't teach diddly squat in school - they just teach you enough to get a job, which is where you finally START learning what is really going on.
And then you finally START learning that we know almost nothing - a few models here and there whose predictions appear to match experimental data, more or less. That's it.
This is what makes science so much fun - no one has yet figured this stuff out yet, and YOU could be the one. New models of how various things work are being proposed every day....
Sorry, but PhD's can only guide people by trying to explain the models of how things work that they learned while in school, which may or may not apply to the questions being debated [and in general they do not], and if they apply, they predict only what SHOULD happen as a result of an experiment, based on the model... not what WILL happen; just what the model predicts will happen.
:-)
But so far as I'm concerned you can type anything more you like, whether you think it obvious or not.
:-)
Mike, you are making sense. Watch out, or 'they' will go after you too!
we're closed minded?
Before I got addicted to computers, I was going to do my physics thesis on 'Chi', the force that numerous martial arts call upon to exert great force when needed. Not so much to figure out what it was but to try and prove its existance.There are lots of things experienced by lots of people that we understand hardly at all - things that could actually be measured if there was money in it.
> I was going to do my physics thesis on 'Chi', the force that numerous martial arts call upon to exert great force when needed. Not so much to figure out what it was but to try and prove its existance. <And were you successful? Unfortunately, it's been a mixed bag for me. I've never found one of those masters that upon summoning his Chi could not be moved by pushing, like I've read about and seen demos on tv. On the other hand, I have seen some demonstrations using strength that might be considered Chi.
... I had found a way to put my passion for computing to good use in the PC revolution. So much for physics. I love to do theoretical research, but it more or less requires that I be a professor, and at that time spending the rest of my life in school was not what I wanted to do.Perhaps Chi is one of those many things that is shy, and shrinks up when being measured.......?
But regarding Chi I am probably in the same place as you - and, although I *think* I feel something sometimes, it is not as substantive nor repeatable as, oh, my ability to hear differences in cables for example. :-)
...slow down to a crawl? If so... how do you measure those?While never particularly athletic in my life, a few years ago I found myself able to catch the stuff that I sometimes drop, and what I've noticed seems to be an expansion of time that allows me to do the swoop and catch in an orderly and effective manner.
I know the Russians have been working on this...
...that after 25+ years of studying martial arts, I have none... whatever it is!> it is not as substantive nor repeatable as, oh, my ability to hear differences in cables for example. :-) <
Step 1 observe what is going on, Step 2 hypothesize why and how. NOW on Step 3, many ic believers are simply repeating step 1 and 2. ON step 4 they are again repeating step 1 and 2. Prove me wrong. State the protocols used in step 3 and 4.
I tried to do an alternative test 'pro-bono' BUT...
A, an unbiased test requires unbiased testers completely free of audiophildom and without outside interference or micromanagement.We could not get to "B"
Step 3 fell on its face before it could begin.
No way would this be allowed to go down because the testing protocol would then be considered "suspect".
Care to give as colorful analogy??
A no modus operandi set of situations.
"A. an unbiased test requires unbiased testers completely free of audiophildom and without outside interference or micromanagement."
(nt) no text
- This signature is two channel only -
Nt
.
NT
When you KNOW there's a clever clock in your room that's supposed to make an improvement, the music sounds better... it does have that big flourescent orange dot on it announcing, "Hey, here I am!".Do you ever play back your favorite songs in your head? Not humming or singing, but just attempting to hear the song in your "mind's ear"? It's an interesting exercise... notice how you can change the characteristics of the sound just by thinking.
Is the mental phenomenon less "real" than the auditory? Nope, they're one and the same. Hearing happens in the mind (as long as your transducers are in good shape!)
Cheers
SF Tech:"Is the mental phenomenon less "real" than the auditory? Nope, they're one and the same. Hearing happens in the mind (as long as your transducers are in good shape!)"
Couldn't agree more. Why this is lost on so many people is beyond me.
.
nt
One's insight is another's incite. A sort of fool's fuel.
The problem with audio engineers isn't citing designs they don't agree with. The problem with audio engineers is the belief of invincibility in the designs they do agree with.This is the root of this whole "audiophile lunacy" issue. It was seeded by the notion in the audiophile community that digital audio may be flawed. And the engineering community not only disagreeing with the notion, but taking it as an insult to their engineering achievement.
And since then, we've had this perpetuating feud between the audiophile community and the audio engineering community.
The CLC is only drawn into the mix to bolster this impression of "audiophile lunacy." And also cables and other tweaks. But there would not have been such motivation to ridicule had this belief in "audiophile lunacy" not been seeded in the early days of digital audio.
That's... well... nutty.
But nobody would be motivated to go out of their way and trumpet the notion......
.
You don't know 'till you've tried it ... trust your ears (or more precisely, my ears) ... yada, yada, yada
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config ... always look for cost effective improvements
1 Measurable and audible
2 Measurable and not audible
3 Not measurable at the current time but is audible
4 Not measurable at the current time but is also not audibleYou seem to stumble on the "not audible" possibilities (2 and 4 above) ... but you muddy the issue by claiming there's no way to test for audibility except to trust whatever an audiophile says. That moves you beyond subjective ... into gullible
And you further muddy the issue by launching broad character attacks against anyone who disagrees with you.
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