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This Subjectivist vs Objectivist battle is over for me. But before I begin I want to state that I have great respect for other Objectivists here like tomservo or jneutron to name a couple.I've come to the conclusion that as much as the proclaim differently, the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists who are constantly demanding Subjectivists provide them with proof they can hear differences in components, wires, tubes etc, DO NOT want to really know the truth on this matter. I don't know if that's because their preferences & expectation biases prevent them from hearing these differences. Perhaps their ears aren't trained well enough--you see despite what the LFO claim, Subjectivists do NOT believe we have super-hearing abilities. We believe everyone with training and no hearing disabilities can hear what we hear. It's even possible their components aren't revealing enough, but truth be told I don't know why they cannot hear these differences.
What I do know is that instead of knowing the truth, these small in number Lunatic Fringe Objectivists (RBG, Pat D, AJinFLA, Phil Tower, Soundmind & andy_19191 to name a few) would rather appear correct at all costs, even if they're not, period. For the record I'd like to say I know this group of Lunatic Fringe Objectivists don't represent all or even the majority of the Objectivists here on A.A. The reasons I've come to they don't want to know the truth are many. Over & over & over again we hear this group making many misleading statements such as:
1) Subjectivists believe EVERY component or wire sounds different. The truth is Subjectivists believe components and wires do indeed sound different and the only way of knowing if 2 components or wires will sound different is to listen. But I have never met a Subjectvist that said EVERY component or wire sounds different.
2) Subjectivists believe that wires make as much difference as speakers. But rather than make a valid comparison that represents what Subjectivists really believe, the LFO will compare a Quad with an AR9 as an example of how great the differences in speakers are. However the reality is an ESL and a Dynamic speaker are completely different technologies. There's not a Subjectivist that doesn't understand you'd probably notice the change in the sound of the different technologies a lot quicker than with wires. But all interconnects are basically the same technology, no? So comparing wires is more like making a comparison between 10 $5K dynamic speakers. Even the Objectivist know the differences between 10 different $5K dynamic speakers isn't night & day. What Subjectivists really believe is the changes in wires could be as dramatic, or more dramatic than, the change in 10 different $5K dynamic speakers! Now it's in that light we see that wires can make as much or more difference than your speakers.
I could go on with other misleading examples but I'll end with this one. The Lunatic Fringe Objectivists want you to believe that Subjectivists run and hide from blind tests, but WE DO NOT! Case in point, I offered to PROVIDE PROOF via "blind tests" by blind test I mean that the wires and the person changing the wires would remain unseen by myself and the witnesses for the duration of the test. I maintain "IF" I cannot see the wires, I cannot know which, if any, wires were changed. If the witnesses and myself cannot see the person changing the wires, they cannot somehow telegraph info in any way, shape or form! That would thus be a valid "blind test."
Did the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists jump on the chance to see a Subjectivist take the test they claim we all run and hide from? NO they did not! Instead of running to see this test they all ran from it. Below are some of their many excuses the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists have to this challenge I offered & my accusations of the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists hiding...
andy_19191 claims: They did not hide. They told you they were not interested in wasting their time and money which is quite different. If you want someone to visit you then you will have to provide a good enough reason to overcome this cost.
(Ok so here's one of the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists stating that coming and witnessing a Subjectivist passing a blind-test is a waste of their time and money! Yet the claim they want to know the truth.)
andy_19191 also claims: Most children realise at quite an early age that simply wanting something and sitting down and screaming until they get it does not always work.
(So why are these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists (of which andy_19191 is a member) CONSTANTLY sitting down, screaming out that Subjectivists need to PROVIDE PROOF, yet when a challenge is extended wherein a Subjectivists offers to take a blind test the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists call witnessing this test a waste of time and money?)
andy_19191 claims: What can you offer "Lunatic Fringe Objectivists" to tempt them to come and visit you? Valid data of something interesting to them?. No you do not have scientifically valid data or a desire to obtain it.
(I've offered: 1) previous witnesses whom they reject, 2) to PROVIDE PROOF to them personally, but they consider that a waste of time and money. Yet now andy_19191 states I need to "tempt" them with valid data I already have? So unless I go back and get a high-level science education to enable me to be able to provide them with audibility data you know - the kind these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists can READ rather than experience, there's nothing I can do, to please these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists! Every Subjectivist here knows that any data presented that didn't line-up with the Lunatic Fringe Objectivists preferences and expectation biases would be rejected outright. That's why I specifically offered to provide proof personally to them, but remember that unfortunately is a waste of time and money according to andy_19191!)
Richard BassNut Greene in an amazingly wise post claims: "No matter how foolish the claims seem at first, they need to be tested before they are dismissed."
(Yet after posting those very words RBG dismisses 1) everything I say, 2) the witnesses I provide and 3) the offer to provide the proof personally the scientific data he states he's never seen. How does RBG respond? He refuses to come and claims my offers of hospitality are actually DEMANDS being made apon him. How can it be a DEMAND, when a) I offer and b) He states it's proof he wants?)
Richard BassNut Greene claims: All experiment data must be published, including the temperature and humidity in the listening room measured at five-minute intervals, and experiment results must also please Phil Tower.
(I hope he's joking a tad. But now I must be published & Plus Phil Tower must approve (isn't that an appeal to authority?) What happened to RBG's words of: No matter how foolish the claims seem at first, they need to be tested before they are dismissed?)
Richard BassNut Greene claims: "Another great benefit to audio is to claim that all components sound different when not one out of hundreds of brave audiophiles who have tested this belief over three decades was able to come close to validating the belief."
(Actually RBG the real great benefit to audio is for you Lunatic Fringe Objectivists to claim that components don't sound different, and then dismiss an offer from a Subjectivist to PROVIDE YOU PERSONALLY the PROOF you claim you want, only to have you refuse to come to the test, because you interpet the offer of hospitality as a DEMAND!)
Richard BassNut Greene claims: Let the audio fantasies continue -- attack all objective experiements when their results don't support pre-existing beliefs. It's all about the ego-building fantasy: "I know what I hear and I don't have to prove it to anyone else."
(RBG how you mislead everyone. The ONLY one with an ego-building fantasies are those you of Lunatic Fringe Objectivists like yourself who state: No matter how foolish the claims seem at first, they need to be tested before they are dismissed. Yet you outright reject my personal tests, the witnesses of these tests and the offer to see these tests performed for you in person! It would appear it's you Lunatic Fringe Objectivists who attack all experiements when their results don't support your pre-existing beliefs, not us Subjectivists.)
Richard BassNut Greene claims: My posts claim that blind test results can not identify the existence of even one real golden ear. I do not claim all components sound the same. It is the golden ear wackos who claim all components sound different ... but have no proof beyond "I know what I hear".
(RBG you claim, 1) No matter how foolish the claims seem at first, they need to be tested before they are dismissed & 2) blind test results can not identify the existence of even one real golden ear. Yet you REFUSE to accept my challenge that I will detect via blind tests, that wires sound different. It's real easy for you to make these "supposed" facts when 1) You won't test my hearing abilities BEFORE rejecting them and 2) I offer to allow blind tests to identify & provide the existance of someone (me) who can detect differences in wires. You make so many different claims yet don't even follow your own words, i.e. NO MATTER HOW FOOLISH THE CLAIMS SEEM AT FIRST, THEY NEEDTO BE TESTED BEFORE BEING DISMISSED. Instead in my case you jump straight to dismissing, my tests, my claimed results, my witnesses of these tests and finally my offer to allow you to personally witness me taking said tests.
AJinFLA states in response to my offer of proving I detect differences in wires etc: "So no, I won't be coming to your house of worship anytime soon. Sorry, I'm agnostic remember? Thanks for the offer though. I don't get to hear tube distortion and low rez uncontrolled directivity speaker box sound very often anymore. Artifical flavoring ain't for me. Just not my bag."
(Apparently in this particular Lunatic Fringe Objectivist's mind he has to like the sound of the system, in order for a valid blind test to be performed!)
AJinFLA claims: You don't own an ABX or a clue about science or scientific proof, nor will you ever. There is simply no need to go further.
(So AJinFLA ONLY accept results via an ABX. He will NOT accept the valid data obtained via other blind testing?)
AJinFlA stated in response to my offer of proving I detect differences in wires etc: "...why (do) I need to be there to watch you imagine hearing differences, which I was going to suggest - could easily have been done with a web camera - and save me the drive."
(So this particular Lunatic Fringe Objectivists won't accept my tests, my claimed results, my witnesses of these tests or even my offer to allow him to personally witness me taking said tests ( AJinFLA lives pretty close to me) Yet he'll accept the results via a webcam? We all know AJinFLA & the rest of these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists would claim someone outside the view of the webcam (if I had one) was providing me clues!)
Notice these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists claim, it Subjectivists who refuse to PROVIDE PROOF, yet when I offer to do that very thing via blind tests, they come up with a myriad of excuses ranging from:
andy_19191 claiming unless I tempt the Lunatic Fringe Objectivist's with valid data, which would require my going back and getting a high-level science education and then providing them audibility data, my blind tests are a waste of time and money!
Richard BassNut Greene who claims: "No matter how foolish the claims seem at first, they need to be tested before they are dismissed. Yet he refuses to accept my tests, my results, my witnesses of these tests and finally my offer to allow RBG to & personally witness me taking said tests, rather he dismisses them outright and claims I am DEMANDING he come to FLA.
Lastly there is the most Looney of all the when it comes to making excuses, I present...
AJinFLA. He'll only accept blind tests if an ABX comparator is used! In his mind no other blind test is valid and then he says why (do) I need to be there to watch you imagine hearing differences, which I was going to suggest - could easily have been done with a web camera - and save me the drive? So he won't accept a blind test without an ABX as being scientific, but he'll participate via webcam and accept those results as scientific? Or to even offer the excuse that because he doesn't like tubed equipment, we cannot perform a vaild test using tubed components is really assinine!
As I've stated many times before these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists DO NOT really want to know the truth. They don't really care "IF" Subjectivists can or cannot detected differences in components & wires. All they want is to appear correct and espouse their audio religon, even when they're incorrect. Otherwise why would they need to be tempted (like andy_19191 says) into wanting to learn the truth? The Lunatic Fringe Objectivists misleadingly claim Subjectivists won't take blind tests, yet when I offer to do so eveyone can plainly see it's these Lunatic Fringe Objectivists who want no part of it, not this Subjectivist.
I now, nothing will ever please them, the two parts can NEVER meet. These Lunatic Fringe Objectivists believe wires sound the same they want to use just any wires. But even worse because they don't believe components sound different unless they are broken or faulty, so they see my objection to using an ABX comparator as an excuse. Wherein as I believe wires make a differences I want at least decent quality wires used and because I know components sound different, I only want the wires changed NOT the insertion of an ABX comparator into the system.
As far as I'm concerned they don't want the truth otherwise they'd accept a blind test wherein the wires and the person changing the wires would remain unseen by myself and the witnesses for the duration of the test. To me that's a vaild blind test. So concerning the Subjectivists vs Objectivists debate, for me the battle is over! I cannot debate someone who doesn't want to know the truth...
Follow Ups:
Holly Molly !!!! The amount of time you spent on all that non-sense and dribble...... just think you could have been in your listening chair and enjoying good music instead of ranting subjectively.....or was that Objectively....... happy listening !!!!!
You can't take this stuff to seriously. There are much better ways to spend your time. Spending time with your familly as an example. The bottom line is this is a message board. If your lucky you might get someone to think about things a bit different. Have them change their minds??? You didn't change yours did you??????? Did any of the conversations actually get you to think about things in a different light???????
Do a number of inmates feel so fundamentally unsure about the actual justifications for their personal audio judgements - whether they may describe themselves as "subjectivists" or "objectivists" - that they feel some sort of compulsive need to try to impose their audio priorities on everyone else, perhaps as a rather pathetic attempt to validate their approach by attempting to exclude all alternatives from general acceptance?...When any individual claims or implies that their personal judgements will be automatically equally applicable to everyone else I suggest that such instincts indicate an unintelligent "anal" approach at best, and staggering personal arrogance at worst...
Suggestions for helpful comment need not - and should not - be turned into some sort of personal dog-fight... For those that feel a need for a bruising confrontation, I suggest that posting provocative headers in the "Outside" forum would be likely to generate the required response...
Have an enjoyable day, filled with excellent music...
Bill.
Come and get some! There's plenty in this forum to go around.
It's the same as religion, don'tcha know.
Both an unintelligent "anal" approach and staggering personal arrogance evidently DO apply in such cases!:o)...
Bill.
Robert,I have no family and very few friends (due to my disability keeping my mobility limited) here in FL. Up in CT where I grew up it would be different, but unfortunately I cannot handle the cold with my disability. For every degree colder it gets my pain level goes up in intensity.
If you don't mind, I'll refrain from answering your other questions as any response I give will most likely cause me to be drawn back into the Subjectivist vs Objectivist mud-slinging fest. As much as I state I don't wish to continue you see how some are still trying to provoke me back into the Subjectivist vs Objectivist debacle? I'd rather enjoy listening to my system. I wish you many hours of the same listening enjoyment with yours as well.
Wasn't trying to draw you back in. Just food for thought. Sorry your friends are not close to you. Enjoy your system.
Thanks Robert I will, you be sure and do the same....
How many times did Phil Tower go crawling away with his tail between his legs vowing never to post again. And not just here but at Audio Review's message boards as well. And yet he came back time and time again. I've read these good-bye forever you won't have me to kick around anymore speeches a million times before. If people don't want to post here, if they can't take the normal back and forth banter of this place, then why don't they just shut up and leave? What do you want us to do tube boob, throw you a going away party with streamers and champagne? Do you want us to write a eulogy for you too? OK, Bon Voyage! Alas poor tube boob, I knew him well. He was so misunderstood. In coming years we will have only the archives of his bygone posts to look back on and fondly remember the good times we had in his company. That's it, that's all you get. I am sorry for your disability and your lonliness. Stop feeling sorry for yourself for Chrissakes and go out and get a life. People are outside in Florida all year long. Stop hiding behind your stereo as an excuse not to.
Go to hell, Soundmind. Per post above you are a liar and a hypocrite.Why do you hide behind your moniker and fail to disclose who you really are? I know who you are and could easily reveal your identity. I won't because you asked me to keep your identity confidential. I, unlike you, adhere to some principles.
You are a bully and a loudmouth. Easy to get away with when you won't identity yourself. You are a coward.
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
Unsoundmind,With every passing post it becomes more and more evident that you are a mean-spirited person who just likes to argue and critiize others. When I said my days of debating Subjectivists vs Objectivists were over, I thought out of the goodness of my heart I'd give you one last chance at responding with in a normal fashion.
You've proved to me that you don't actually read my posts, if you had you would have read that I want NO apologises or anything else from anyone here. I just want this to fun again. However talking with you is anything but fun or even educational.
ALL you ever do is berate, tear down and destroy. I can barely tolerate walking when I take 30mg of Morphinne 6X a day along with 350mg of Soma 3X a day! So no, I do NOT feel sorry for myself for I know others cannot even walk. After managing to get through 8hrs of work, I'm shot. It's all I can do to drive home and get to the couch. How knowing that people are outside in Florida all year long, is going to help that I don't know. You idiot, I try gardening every weekend as I am able, but after 1-2 hrs of that I'm shot for the day. I don't hide behind my stereo, instead I use it as medicine to sooth me when the meds don't.
Due to the assinine nature of your posts when I've attempted yet a 3rd time to build a bridge, you'll be getting my canned responses once again. You are unworthy of my time and attention over and above that.
Soundmind is really nasty, isn't he?
z
Your gratuitous insult here proves I have no monopoly on being nasty. But I can understand exactly WHY you would so quickly insult me. After all, I was the one who not only pointed out the schoolyard blunder you made earlier this month in an area you are supposed to be technically expert in, but the fact that you attributed your own blunder to me and my correction of it to yourself. In your own way, you are as sick as tube boob.Here it is again in case you have forgotten it so soon.
I don't know why Soundmind is continuing to bring this up. It so happens that a quickly rolled off frequency response has a different risetime than a slowly rolled off frequency response and a very different square wave response. An extended frequency response removes, or at least minimizes the potential problem of pre-shoot, ringing, and very slow risetime. When people test their high frequency hearing response, they usually listen to a single tone, rather than complex waveform. There seems to be a fairly predictable falloff in hearing single tone response, especially with age. However, a single tone is usually not be what we normally listen to when listening to music, so the transient response might well be more important than what would appear to be necessary just to listen to single tones. In this case, the low pass filters: 4 pole in the case of a Shure phono cartridge, 9 or more poles, in the case of a CD player based around 20KHz will strongly effect the transient response of a complex waveform. This is why analog oscilloscopes with a given rated bandwidth do not have steep rolloffs after the bandwidth rating. That is why my TEK 485, 350 MHz analog oscilloscope can actually show a 1ns risetime, 1 MHz square wave with little or no ringing,overshoot, or any other noticable change. Scale this sort of design approach down and you get 1us, 350KHz for a power amp perhaps and perhaps 10us, 35KHz for an overall hi fi design. Is this asking so much from your hi fi system?
A normal person would just let it die and hope it goes away forever. You can't change your blunder but you could move on and accept that you said it and hope it will be forgotten. But if you keep insulting me gratuitously like you just did here, I won't let them, I'll just keep bringing it up again and again and you will look just as foolish as you did on the day when you first posted it. Even you OH Lauded One are not immune from making stupid mistakes. In fact IMO you make more than your fair share of them.
Soundmind, I cannot let you get away with this mindless chastising of something that I responded to.
IF you originally said that frequency and time are really the same thing, except seen from a different perspective, then I would agree to that. BUT, you cannot then say if you know the -1dB or -3 dB response of a network, that you can predict the risetime and transient response from that number ONLY! You can't, unless you know the ENTIRE response of the network and its phase shift with frequency.
Once again, for everyone else, it is easier to have an extended bandwidth with a gradual (-6dB to -12dB per octave) rolloff, than a bandwidth extending just beyond 20KHz and very steep in its rolloff, to have an almost ideal risetime and nearly ideal transient response without pre-shoot or ringing.
It ended when your first took one side of an arguement in your typical condescending way, and then having had it pointed out that you were wrong took the other side just as condescendingly and ascribed your original position to me. Your need to always be right transcends everything else in your world including your perception of reality. As I said, the postings are there for anyone else to judge for themselves what you said on one day, and what you said a couple of days later. As far as I am concerned, you took both sides of the same arguement and thereby lost, not just on that issue but the right to discuss any other technical issues with me. Case closed, move on.
I'm glad that our debate ended, because you stopped insulting me. However, I still don't know where I deliberately made a mistake in this case, unless it is in the structure of my statements that made it ambiguous in some way, and you jumped on the chance to use it against me.
Jneutron tried that recently with a typo of the temperature of SN62 solder. I appariently typed a 4 instead of a 3 in stating the melting temperature in degrees F. I got berated for it. I guess that, if controlling the soldering processes at my lab was a primary occupation of mine, at first glance, I would have noted it immediately. However, I only note the relative temperature of different solders, and I know that SN62 is one of the lowest melting temperature, eutectic, common solder formulations (you know, the kind that you can buy at the store), and therefore should be relatively easy to melt.
This kind of nit picking criticism doesn't convey any real information, but simply is used for harrassment of a specific individual that you disagree with. Talk about professional behavior! ;-)
jc: ""
Jneutron tried that recently with a typo of the temperature of SN62 solder. I appariently typed a 4 instead of a 3 in stating the melting temperature in degrees F. I got berated for it. I guess that, if controlling the soldering processes at my lab was a primary occupation of mine, at first glance, I would have noted it immediately. However, I only note the relative temperature of different solders, and I know that SN62 is one of the lowest melting temperature, eutectic, common solder formulations (you know, the kind that you can buy at the store), and therefore should be relatively easy to melt.""You make me laugh.
You stated "my Sn 62 solder which melts at 460 degrees."
So I said, Here's a list of alloys that melt at 460, Sn 62 ain't there, it's much lower.
Your response...radio silence.
Then in a typically stupid attack, you say I know very little about material science, to which I point out your errors with solders and fluxes..mentioning your 470 (my error) degree solder..
To which, you fabricate a complete lie. You said you pulled the number out of a 20 year old book on soldering.
Then you back off the book story claiming I attack you for a typo, but then, it's in the book..no it's a typo, but, it's in my book.......wait, what lie am I trying to foist upon everybody???
John, do us a favor...whenever you make something up, write it down. That way, you can at least be consistent and not look like a fool...
jc: ""I guess that, if controlling the soldering processes at my lab was a primary occupation of mine, at first glance, I would have noted it immediately""
Maybe, but you've not shown a very high level of memory to date, why would that be any different??
I did most of my soldering work 15 years ago, vapor phase, hydrogen belt, vacuum, focussed infrared, resistive, hot air, nitrogen, step soldering, even (heaven forbid) soldering iron..my expertise in that technology was enlisted to build a very large and complex machine which has a downtime expense of 41.6 Kilobucks per hour, and a single solder joint repair time of 5 days.
It's only in the last 13 years that I had to develop all the process and techniques needed for reliable solder joints in a 4.2 Kelvin environment.
You are berated for acting like an a-hole, John, not for typos. It's that simple.
If you are berated a lot, well, cause and effect dude..
Cheers, John
why are you taking him seriously?Here is a guy who thinks that THD is relevant ( "When TOTAL harmonic distortion is measured in tenths and hundreths of one percent, it doesn't matter how it is spread out. I believe that they are all inaudible..., ), AR-9s (however you wish to bastardize them) and a Dynaco power amp are state of the art today and that he invented DSP algorithms (remind you of the claims of a former Veep?) among other truly wonderful gems of "wisdom".
We should rejoice in this continuing source of levity. :)
Don't worry, I am just taking a little 'heat' off of TubeGuy54, and having fun doing it.
z
This thread was a barrel of laughs from the get-go with John Curl playing the part of George Burns and May Belt as Gracie Allen. The only problem I had was trying to figure out which one was the straight man. To recap, John asks for and gets May's explanation of why cables sound different. She starts out with the London cholera epidemic of the 1830s. I kid you not. It's right up there with Who's on first.You subjectivists have so much in common.
BTW clark, have you tried watering your plants with fluoridated water to make your audio system sound better the way May suggested? How about freezing your 78 shellac records overnight? How about howling at the moon?
that you don't get it! There are numerous cases where the scientific community has made erroneous conclusions based upon unsupported assumptions. Like yours and THD. I guess this concept goes over your head.Here's another story with a good outcome. You can thank this doctor for inventing air conditioning for completely the wrong reason! I learned of him first on a BBC documentary called "Connections".
...leaving science to scientists and comedy to comedians. You are clearly neither. Now when it comes to the comedy of audiotomfoolery (or should I say audiojohnfoolery) May Belt has few equals, not even you or John Curl.
I have faith in quite a few audio engineers. Success for audio is a whole lot more complex than "no one complained" as you trumpet with your power jobs. You flip the switch, the power comes on. Really challenging.
"You flip the switch, the power comes on. Really challenging."Why not try it...on a 1 megawatt data center. Don't kid yourself, you'd be lucky if they let you walk through the door.
Success for audio is a whole lot more complex than "no one complained"Success for audio is a whole lot more complex than "no one complained"
Success for audio is a whole lot more complex than "no one complained"
Any idiot can design a speaker system or an amplifier. And that is exactly who often does. If it doesn't work right the first time, he does it again and again until he gets it right, prototype after prototype, model after model. To design a suitable power distribution system for a complicated application, you need decades of training....and you often only get one shot at a project so it had better be right the first time or you are finished in the business. Capiche?
Last try.There is a single criteria for the success of a power distribution system. You flip the switch and either (A) it works, or (B) it doesn't. You acknowledged that some time ago with this proud evaluation of your large project:
"And eperience [sic] bore it out as no complaint was ever traced to a problem with this cable installation."
Nobody complained. Great job! It sure seems you use that same criteria when it comes to audio. I can hear the music through both speakers. Job done!
Electrical power distribution design and installation failure can occur in many different modes including insidious failures as well as failures which don't manifest themselves for months or years. As is always the case you shoot your mouth off without knowing what you are talking about. How long were the defects unknown and undetected in both the system configuration and the fault protection and isolation scheme before a feeder failure in the midwest a few summers ago took out much of the midwest and northeast power grid? That's just one of countless examples. Recently I heard a report from a collegue that a company I worked at 11 years ago just had a massive power failure in their main data center because someone had installed a defective design for dual pathing and a component failure took out both the primary and redundant systems. Up to that time it worked just fine. So much for your theories. Stick to what you do know....whatever that is.
it went from (A) working to (B), not working.Qualitative measures completely elude your line of thinking.
Sometimes it goes from working to sort of working to not working to back and forth among them. An intermittent electrical problem which manifests itself by degrees is among the most difficult to diagnose. Just when you think you've cured it, it comes back again. I just had one with my car. The dealer took several hours with his computer hooked up to it to find it and his time cost me $300. The part...$8. I think this is more than you can absorb. You'd better take your afternoon nap and rest your tired mind, this could be too mentally straining for you. :> )
rw
What a nice guy! ;-) Mostly a fool.
You mean for wasting my time talking to the likes of you? Obviously!
Almost 40 years ago when I was in school, I was required to draw the the resulting square wave waveform output and specify the low frequency fall time and high frequency rise time response of an amplifier given its frequency response and and to draw and specify the frequency response given its output high frequency rise time and low frequency fall time in response to input square waves. It was made as plain to me as possible that they are really one and the same and I never forgot it. It depends on and results from Fourier analysis of periodic waveforms, a bedrock of modern electrical engineering theory and mathematics. That's why it particularly caught my attention when you posted;"Soundmind, you have no idea of what you are talking about. It is NOT about extended frequency response, but it is about transient response and risetime. You don't know this, you will probably NEVER know this, and that is too bad"
That was on your posting on September 28 which can be found at;
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/24046.html
As you are someone whose earns his livelihood by designing amplifiers, it is hard for me to believe you would forget such a fact if you ever knew it. So here is my question; are you a degreed electrical engineer? If you are, you are not like any other electrical engineer I ever met. I am reminded that at one time you made it a point not to respond to anyone posting here who was not a degreed electrical engineer. So I ask you, are you or aren't you?
No, I am not a degreed electronic engineer. I graduated with a BA in physics 40 years ago, but I took most of the engineering courses in analog design, both undergraduate and graduate, over the next few years on my own time.
This might give me interesting way of expressing myself, as I did not have certain hard definitions hammered into my during my formative years.
However, an ideal square wave is composed of tones that roll off at 6dB/octave to infinity. Then the risetime is virtually instantaneous, and would be difficult to define.
After all, I use the calibration: 1ns, 1KHz square wave from my Tek 485 scope for testing cables, etc. 1 nanosecond is 10,000 times faster than what I hold to be important, but it is useful sometimes.
A 10us square wave is all that I ask for. You appear to want an 18-30us square wave as good enough. The spectral response will be virtually the same with either risetime, within fractions of a dB at the frequency extremes. This means that a signal that looks very much like a typical 1kHz square wave can have a 1ns to a 30us risetime that would be very difficult to note at a casual glance, but this implies a CHANGE in SLEW RATE of about 30,000 times. or 1V/us or 30,000 V/us. Which is it? That is why we have to DEFINE our risetime first, but not every 20-20KHz effective bandwidth will have the SAME risetime, yet a causal FFT analysis using a 20KHz cutoff will show essentially the same spectrum.
This is what I was referring to.
"No, I am not a degreed electronic engineer"I am not in the least bit surprised. My observation is that personality differences cannot keep most engineers, especially electrical engineers from instinctively knowing who is or isn't by their attitudes towards technical issues. Having been surrounded by engineers and scientists much of my life, having worked with them extensively, and having roomed with a physics student for two years, I've become accostomed to their differences in temperment.
Has it escaped you that by your own prior standards of not talking to anyone who is not a degreed electrical engineer, you were not qualified to talk to yourself? Of all the absurd contradictions you've presented me with, that one has to top the list.
I've been extremely disappointed and surprised in the technical discussions we've had. I can hardly believe that a trained physicist would be a subjectivist who is not determined enough or curious enough to find measurements which correlate with differences in his subjective reactions to his own and competing designs. For an engineer to defend Cheever's paper would be foolish, for a physicist it is ludicrous, an unbelievable descent into relativism. You couldn't or wouldn't reconcile your measurements with my simple minded worst case calculations I offered you. And above all, you seem to have expended your life energies by beating the dead horse of amplifier design which isn't going to get any deader. Given your interest in music and electronics, I'm surprised you haven't spent your energies more profitably designing better speaker systems given what a deplorable state the art it has been frozen into rather than trying to design amplifiers which disguise their shortcomings.
I don't see how any further technical discussion between us would profit either of us as we see the world through entirely different eyes.
Lots of typo's in my last response, sorry about that: First: an interesting way, second: me instead of my, and third: casual rather than causal. I concerned myself about the technical details being accurate, and I think they still are, but a person can be criticized for just about anything around here. ;-)
"I try gardening every weekend as I am able, but after 1-2 hrs of that I'm shot for the day"Then why do you do it? One more mechanism to escape facing other people. That's reason enough to take a pill and call it a day. One more excuse to hide. What happens on Sunday? You need psychotherapy. Get help. This is not the Dr. Phil Show. I'm not interested in your problems or your whining. Maybe others will give you the pity you thrive on but you won't get it from me.
I do it because I love gardening. I was attempting to give you an idea of my limitations you arrogant prick! By the time I drive about 30-40 mins. I miserable.When I do have good days I attempt to do something with my wife as my condition and the pain level I live in keeps me from doing things about 95% of the time.
It's quite obvious to me and now I'n sure many others here, that besides your warped views on audio, you are NOT interested in anyone else problems. I'm sure if you lived with 1/4 the pain I do you'd be whining like a little girl!
The doctors are amazed I went back to work. You see you simpleton I had a 100% free ride for life. I seek no pity from others. ONLY a person of your arrogant truly UNSOUNDMIND would take my post that I just want to stop arguing and turn it into my whining about my health.
This is DEFINITELY the last time I'll ever address anything you say. I have to admit your arrogant, cold-heartedness no reveals to me a sad man, who's only enjoyment comes from attacking anything from peoples choices in audio, to their medical condition. I hope EVERYONE reads this post and sees you for the truly pathetic person you are....
"besides your warped views on audio, you are NOT interested in anyone else problems"You're right, I'm not. Everyone in the world has problems, some a lot worse than yours. 16 years ago, I was in a near fatal car crash. I was driving to work in an interstate in the rain and a guy fell asleep at the wheel of his car. He swerved hitting me in a way that sent my car hyroplaning in a slow spin and compltely out of control. The antilock brakes didn't help and I wound up hitting the concrete center divider head on at about 50 mph. I saw it coming but there was nothing I could do about it, I expected to die. The shoulder harness and seat belt saved my life as did the engineered energy absorbing crumple zones in the car. The car was totaled but I was alive although dazed. Four doctors told me it was a miracle I had survived it. It wasn't until the next day that I was in serious pain. I went to see the company nurse and on her instructions a chiropractor and orthopedist. An X-ray showed my spine was twisted like a pretzel. When the intense headaches started about two weeks later, I went for an EEG and they decided I had a concussion too. I couldn't think straight. There were days I could barely stand up or walk. I went to physical therapy three times a week for four months and chiropractic therapy three times a week for a year and a half. At about the same time my father had his leg amputated from diabetes and I had to drive 50 miles each way every weekend to see him taking turns with my sister who went weekdays. Even with my bad back, I had to load his heavy wheelchair in the trunk of his Chevy and take him to restaurants, haircuts, and whatever else he wanted. Because of my concussion, I was fighting with everyone at work including my boss and was put on probation. I nearly lost my job. But I decided the first day that the worst thing I could do for my mental health was to feel sorry for myself and stay home. If I could walk, I got up and went to work even if it just meant sitting at my desk talking to people. There is no worse self abasement a human being can suffer than self pity. I don't know how much your complaints are real and how much are made up. I don't care. There are millions of people in this world far worse off than you are.
It's clear from the fact that you keep posting here that what you really want is attention and pity. Well as long as the others keep giving it to you, you will keep coming back for it. If you trade insults with people face to face as readily as you do here, it is small wonder you spend so much time alone. People quickly discover they don't want to be around you.
"It took something from you, it must have given something back." Did someone ever try to tell you that. I hope not. If some therapist threw that little non-sequitur at me, I'd get someone else.Although I personally find it callous, I must say the professionals in those kinds of fields often seem to say the kinds of things you have said.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
"It took something from you, it must have given something back."I don't know what that means. I was badly injured even though I didn't know it at first. There were no visible scars or bruises. They were all what are called soft tissue injuries, very hard to prove and therefore requiring additional automobile insurance premiums to be covered for in the State of New Jersey (fortunately I was.) It took a year and a half to substantially recover. People who are sick whether mentally or physically do not have a right to inflict their illness on other people nor to use it as a justification or excuse to be abusive. It is remarkable to me that so many people here would surrender to the rantings of a sniveling, whining, spoiled self centered brat merely because he may be in physical pain much of the time but I guess that is how he got to be a brat in the fist place and maybe that explains why so many children grow up that way.
If you want to know what changes the accident made in me, I'd say overcoming any real adversity in life makes you tougher. All of this happened at a very bad time in my life when both of my parents were terminally ill. It also makes you aware of your own mortality. One thing that surprised me was what went through my head between the time of the collision by the other car and the time of the impact with the concrete wall which I was certain would be fatal. Time slowed down. Those few seconds seemed like minutes. My brain was racing very quickly. Most surprising of all was that I wasn't frightned, I just had a very sad and lonely feeling as though I had been cheated out of half my life. Afterwards, far from acting like tube boob, I was just thrilled to be alive and still in one piece. Complaining about it to anyone was the last thought on my mind but I do admit I did a lot of fighting with a lot of people. Maybe that's how I got to be this way. The only other change I can think of is that I lost my eye for and love of photography. For some reason, in that area, the accident took the wind out of my sails. Too bad, I have so much wonderful camera equipment to play with. Where I was once burning roll after roll of film through it, now it mostly sits idle. BTW, I'm wasn't much better as a photographer than I am as a musician. Realistically, my abilities in both areas are still "beginner."
Seems like you're still there with the anger.Perhaps it is time for you to drop this vendetta. Is it so hard to just walk away from the ugliness? It seems just about everyone else has.
Intolerance for crap is not a function of having been in a car accident or suffered a concussion. It's the result of growing older and realizing there is only so much time in life and it's too precious to be wasted on humoring insufferable fools.
But I'm fairly certain you weren't "humoring" those you think are "fools," you were attacking them. "There is only so much time in life," so perhaps you should curtail your need to attack those you consider "insufferable fools," even if you think they started it, as apparently unbeknownst to you, you have yourself become one.
Well then I've created my own purgatory because you can't escape from yourself. Fortuantely, I can escape from anyone on the internet if they are too bothersome. Which is why I no longer respond to certain people who post here or usually even read their postings. Neither they nor their views interest me.I don't normally go out picking fights and I usually have a fairly high boiling point, but if someone starts with me first and gets to the point of being annoying, heaven help them. Tube boob has a long history of it.
"I am sorry for your disability and your lonliness. Stop feeling sorry for yourself for Chrissakes and go out and get a life. People are outside in Florida all year long. Stop hiding behind your stereo as an excuse not to."Soundmind, I don't suppose you see the mean-spirited taunting implicit in your statements? TG stated he had a disability that limits his mobility. Sounds like to "go out and get a life" is something Tom wishes he could do but can't. Don't try to pass this off as you having a sense of humour, either, as you did in another branch of this thread. Bad behavior is bad behavior, and it certainly doesn't do much for making this hobby seem inclusive to those who may not have the same technical knowledge base that you do. This thread isn't much more than a bunch of playground bullies picking on someone in the playground.
I've known many people who had limited mobility, some of them restricted to wheel chairs. Don't give me the "you are so insensitive" line of bullshit. That kind of crap doesn't wash with me, I've been around the block too many years to fall for it. There are many ways for people who have restricted mobility to socialize with other human beings and participate in life if they want to. There isn't a community in the United States which doesn't have countless organizations and programs, some private and some public to bring people with all kinds of disabilities into "the community" and make them feel part of the world and not leave them to be in solitary confinement in their own homes. That only happens to them if they insist on it and many do. Hiding behind a computer terminal, a stereo system, and a television set is one way to do it. Feeling sorry for yourself is another.
You got caught being unnecessarily hostile, and yet you try to turn it into some "tough love" position on the handicapped. Every day the hubris on this Forum amazes me.I'm not defending Tubeguy's position(s), nor am I applauding his (former) pit-bull determination to keep at it with you and others on this forum, but I do think that there are better and more productive methods for educating someone than to berate them, particularly by personal attacks, even if they themselves are equally guilty.
Robert,I was indeed very determined in my attempt to present another POV. I am however amazed that Unsoundmind would turn my appeal to build a bridge by publically posting I've had enough of the Subjectivists vs Objectivists arguement, into an attack on my health.
Some make friends easier than others. I'm not one to make friends easily. I was only trying to say my present condition limits my getting out and meetings others. I wasn't whining like Unsoundmind suggests, I was only stating a fact. If Paul B reads this perhaps he'll comment on how much less I go out within this past 1.5 years than I used to.
When good days do come I want to take my wife out. Why? Because she doesn't drive and we don't live near a busline so my condition effects her social life as well. She's an amazing woman who never ever complains. She always wants what is best for me, so what do I have to whine about? I'm not whining, I'm grateful I can still walk. I garden because I love to and refuse to allow this dam condition take everything away from me. I wished just for 1 month I could give Unsoundmind my condition, just to help melt that piece of ice he calls a heart. I've had a handicapped license in MY name for over 10 years, since I was 42 and they are not easy to get in FLA.
What Unsoundmind doesn't understand is that there are degrees of being disabled, just cause some can, doesn't mean we all can. In fact I have a wheelchair bound acquaintance who told me he feels sorry for ME!!!????? Why, I asked, would you feel sorry for me, when you can't walk? He looked at me and said I've thought about this a lot Tom. My reasons are: #1 It's true I cannot walk, but I'm not in pain. I cannot begin to fathom what being in the amount of pain you live with 24/7's would be like and #2 I know that because you can walk and no one can see your pain, few see you as the disabled person you are.
Robert I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me. I don't give a horses pa-toot what Unsoundmind says. I'm just honestly amazed that when I give up the Subjectivists vs Objectivists arguement, that anyone could be so low or would be so mean-spirited as Unsoundmind is and attack the condition of my health, in order to try to provoke me back into the arguement.
As with the Subjectivists vs Objectivists arguement, this is all I will say on this matter as well. I consider it dropped, but I'm sure Unsoundmind will find many others things to say about me as well, SO BE IT!
what we're left with is our conscience. It is no man's right to judge that.In the last few hours of the day (more hours if we're fortunate), what we've all got is our love of music and our enjoyment of the means to reproduce it. Alot of the frustrations that result from the "debates" in these Forums can be easily brushed aside with a drink of choice, a comfortable chair, and some great music well-presented...
Good luck Tom. I hope for you and your wife that the pain you experience lessens with time...
"I am however amazed that Unsoundmind would turn my appeal to build a bridge by publically posting I've had enough of the Subjectivists vs Objectivists arguement, into an attack on my health."I didn't. YOU DID! You made it an unavoidable issue. That's what you wanted all along and you got it. Pity the poor tubeguy with the limited mobility. Hasn't limited his ability to type on a keyboard or use a mouse though. He can still cut and paste with the best of them.
OK, it's OCD time. Cut and paste your mantra now. You have my permission. Right down in that box below where it says "Post a followup"
He insults people and then whines when they insult him back. He asks for it. That's how he engages people to get attention. He's like a whining infant. That he engages people about technical issues on a board specifically dedicated to that purpose having no technical knowledge of his own and trying to impose his views by intimidation proves all he wants is to be noticed. I'm no psychologist but I've seen and read enough about it to know that the worst reaction is to surrender to his hostility. Some will but I won't be among them.
As I said, I'm not defending Tubeguy's positions or his determination to keep at it.However, when you state that he is, "trying to impose his views by intimidation," you could be describing any number of Inmates, you and me included. There's still no excuse for bad behavior, whether it is "deserved" or not.
Cheers, and have a nice long session with that lovely Steinway...
"However, when you state that he is, "trying to impose his views by intimidation," you could be describing any number of Inmates, you and me included."Well we could beat each other up about that all day. If I decided I didn't want any more of it because I didn't like what I felt was excessive hostility, I would just stop posting. That is the sane reaction IF that was the issue. That is not tube boob's real arguement. Haven't you noticed that he has turned this thread to a subject he doesn't feel he is inferior in his knowledge about...himself. His real problem is his ego and the huge chip he carries on his shoulder, angry at life itself and anyone who doesn't suffer his pain with him. But he never figured he'd be challenged even on this subject and this time he can't resort to his usual arguements. Again, if the issue is what he says it is, he'd just leave. But he doesn't. He keeps coming back for more because its exactly what he wants. Isn't it obvious? This isn't tough love or any other kind of love. I don't give a rats ass what happens to him. He could drop dead tomorrow and it wouldn't bother me. He's just another moniker on an internet board whether he uses his real name or not. BTW, like Phil Tower, he made a special point of telling us his name.
You may be right about Tubeguy's motivation: I couldn't guess. All the back and forth (to give this thread an innocuous name) sure takes away from the technical, doesn't it?But what's so wrong about Phil Tower the moniker being Phil Tower the person?? If it's really bad, then I'm not really robert young...;)
"But what's so wrong about Phil Tower the moniker being Phil Tower the person??"Nothing, except that every time he loses an arguement or goes off on one of his snits, he berates me for not using my real name while he makes it a point of telling the world he uses his. He is the most thin skinned lawyer I have ever encountered. He wouldn't last in the Big Apple for five minutes, they'd eat him alive. He has his own game. He will be the first to tell you he deliberately provokes people to get what he hopes will be an interesting discussion going. Only he gets so caught up in it, he winds up in the stew pot he created himself. I actually like Phil Tower and I respect his intelligence. He's just too sensitive to do what he does. Lawyering requires a tough hide. Lawyers are trained to argue both sides of an arguement with equal conviction and never take anything said in the heat of a debate personally. And he does that, often arguing both sides of an issue he brought up in the same thread...sometimes against himself. Funny, even when he does, he never seems to come out the winner :> )
While I am proud to be in a group with Phil Tower, which I shall highlight on my resume should I ever get around to typing one, I find it puzzling because I always thought Mr. Tower was a subjective audiophile.Perhaps this group should be renamed:
"People who have disagreed with TubeGuy1954"
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Richard BassNut Greene
My Stereo is MUCH BETTER than Your Stereo
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Tube Guy is a real audio equipment lover (everyone should read about his system) who has obviously obtained very high sound quality at home.He knows how important room acoustics are, and it really doesn't matter what we think or don't think about his wires.
Nothing we say really matters because we have never met TubeGuy, nor have we listened to his stereo -- unfortunately some people take these silly audio arguments seriously when they should be laughing as they type posts comparing each other's families to various farm animals ... somewhat like going back to the fun we had in grade school days!
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Richard BassNut Greene
My Stereo is MUCH BETTER than Your Stereo
RBG,I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. No one needs to apologize to me. I really appreciate your kind words. What you wrote is the closest anyone here on A.A. who doesn't know me personally, has actually came in identifying what I really am and believe. For the record I don't hate solidstate, I prefer tubes. I still own an Audio Analoge Puccini that will return this Sunday with my wife from Colombia, S.A. Afterall I needed good sound in Colombia when I visted, no?
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Unsoundmind,Who are you trying to convince yourself?
You know I no longer take anything you say seriously. HOW CAN I WHEN I'VE CAUGHT YOU LYING SO MANY TIMES? So as you know:
1) I don't take you seriously.
2) This will be the ONLY response you'll ever receive from me everytime you respond to any of my posts.I don't understand why you even bother responding to my posts!
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The belief that virtually all audio components sound different (the golden ear fantasy) has never been proven, except for speakers.Even the golden ear fantasy that a few audiophiles can differentiate among electronic components & wires MUCH BETTER than other audiophiles seems to be an ego-boosting illusion.
The belief that audiophiles who try blind auditions and those who don't have significantly different hearing abilities is just an idle claim. Sort of like people who claim to have a high IQ but never take an IQ test!
Three decades of blind audio component comparisons have had surprisingly consistent results: The huge difference between blind and sighted "hearing ability" (excluding speakers where results are similar) can only be explained in two ways:
- Small A-B SPL differences are easily mistaken as "sound quality" differences
- Expectations that virtually all components sound different, and "real audiophiles can hear these differences, leads to audiophiles imagining they hear differences. This hypothesis is confirmed by tests where audiophiles compare a component with itself (thinking there are really two different audio components in use) and then claim to "hear differences" 50% to 75% of the time when no differences are possible!
The difference between blind and sighted listening is greatest when wires are the components in use.
No audiophile has yet proven to witnesses his ability to differentiate among wires of normal lengths intended for audio use while listening to music with the brand names hidden.
Many audiophiles HAVE heard SPL differences among speaker wires, but those differences are not meaningful sound quality differences.
Claims that "I can really hear wire differences" can only be taken seriously when blind auditions are used.
There have been consistent "null results" in blind wire tests -- too many over three decades to give someone the benefit of the doubt.
I have first hand experienece with both double-blind and single-blind wire comparisons -- my experiences match other tests I've read about.
If speaker wires are compared, A-B volume matching is needed to avoid small SPL differences that could easily be misinterpreted as sound quality differences.
The key to wire comparisons is to do them, not just argue about them.
The claim that you WOULD demonstrate positive results to anyone who comes to your house is nothing more than boasting!
Boasting about what you could do is not objective science.
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Richard BassNut Greene
My Stereo is MUCH BETTER than Your Stereo
(nt)
mkuller,You can taunt me all you want to. I refuse to be drawn into this BS. I will say however as an ex-professional reviewer for TAS, it's definitely hard for me to believe, one such as yourself, who has this sort of POV had honest, subjective listening sessions. Your beliefs are apparently in opposition of what would be expected of a TAS writer. Perhaps that's why you an ex-reviewer for TAS?
RBG,As much as you are trying to deliberately provoke me into another round of Subjectivist vs Objectivists debating with your comments of: (your) claim that you WOULD demonstrate positive results to anyone who comes to your house is nothing more than boasting! Boasting about what you could do is not objective science. I'll NOT take your bait RBG! Believe what you choose, write what you choose, for me this battle is over.
Thetubeguy1954
What do you want to battle about next?How about the audibility of bricks on amplifiers?
Amplifiers on bricks?
I have four hockey pucks under my CD player
How about a hockey puck argument?Well if you ever get in the mood for a debate
about anything, we'll be here waiting ...
to ambush you!Happy listening!
R. BassNut Greene
I may be wrong,
but that's never
at the top of my list
of possibilities.
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Richard BassNut Greene
My Stereo is MUCH BETTER than Your Stereo
> How about the audibility of bricks on amplifiers? <A thump if placed lightly, a crash if thrown.
> Amplifiers on bricks? <
Same as above, only louder!
> I have four hockey pucks under my CD player <
I'll bet it sounds like horse puckey!
There's no lack of others who will carry the gauntlet for the medicine show.
Time to move on. Enjoy! Next time I'm in Florida I'll look you up.
Just contact me a week or so before visiting so I can make the arrangements to spend time with you, to come over and listen.
...but I doubt it. People on a crusade rarely ever rest much longer than it takes to catch their breath. I expect once you do, you will mount up and ride again against the evil proponents of solid state amplifiers, compact discs, and Home Depot wires. And when you do, a small army of the "OBJECTIVIST" enemy will be there to meet you.
Unsoundmind,As much as you are trying to provoke me into another round of Subjectivist vs Objectivist debating, I've given up that battle.
Sorry to inform you but your assumptions are incorrect.
What happened to your usual mantra you always post in response to my comments? You know, the one you always cut and paste. Cut and paste, that's what they do in kindergarten isn't it? I was so looking forward to it. I've got a couple of extra refrigerator magnets hanging around and I thought.....
They do scratch but only the wifey would care about that!
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Richard BassNut Greene
My Stereo is MUCH BETTER than Your Stereo
I took one of those Empire 9000Ms apart to repair it and the woofer magnet looks like it could easily lift a refrigerator right off the ground. The midrange and tweeter magnets were so big and powerful I could hardly get the rear mounted screws back in their threaded holes.
I told you it's over....
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Unsoundmind,There's a HUGE difference between having a SOH and tolerating the nasty mud-slinging, name calling & berating of others and their personal choices, that passes as "jesting" when one can hide behind the saftey of their PC and a moniker.
No matter what I've said that's one thing I NEVER do, i.e. "hide behind the saftey of their PC and a moniker." I've said many times my name is Tom Scata, from Orlando, FL and my number is listed in the phone book.
I have a great SOH. I just no longer choose to participate or communicate with those who'd rather stoop to the nasty mud-slinging, name calling & berating of others and their personal choices, than debate a specific subject. In any event the Subjectivist vs Objectivist POV debate is over for me. You, of course, are free to choose whatever course of actions you wish to take.
Here's a quote from your posting to RichardBassNutGreene. You won't have to look far, its just a little ways down this very page."Are You Really This Stupid?"
Unsoundmind,Who are you trying to convince yourself?
You know I no longer take anything you say seriously. HOW CAN I WHEN I'VE CAUGHT YOU LYING SO MANY TIMES? So as you know:
1) I don't take you seriously.
2) This will be the ONLY response you'll ever receive from me everytime you respond to any of my posts.I don't understand why you even bother responding to my posts!
Cut and paste, cut and paste. Looks like a clear cut case of OCD to me.
Unsoundmind,Who are you trying to convince yourself? You are just a habitual liar who's mean-spirited and attacks anything and everything from a person's POV on audio to the physical health. You simply wish to provoke the others, in a vain attempt to provide yourself joy at their expense. You know I no longer take anything you say seriously. HOW CAN I WHEN I'VE CAUGHT YOU LYING SO MANY TIMES? So as you know:
1) I don't take you seriously.
2) This will be the ONLY response you'll ever receive from me everytime you respond to any of my posts.I don't understand why you even bother responding to my posts!
I respond to your posts because you want me to. If you didn't, you wouldn't respond yourself. The next time you see a miserable little 2 year old brat screaming and whining to get attention, you will be looking in the mirror. It's repugnant in an infant. It's tragic in a grown man. That's how the world sees you. That's how I see you.OK, you can now do your obsessive compulsive disorder thing and cut and paste your mantra below. You have my permission to do that...again...since it makes you feel better.
Unsoundmind,Who are you trying to convince yourself? You are just a habitual liar who's mean-spirited and attacks anything and everything from a person's POV on audio to the physical health. You simply wish to provoke the others, in a vain attempt to provide yourself joy at their expense. You know I no longer take anything you say seriously. HOW CAN I WHEN I'VE CAUGHT YOU LYING SO MANY TIMES? So as you know:
1) I don't take you seriously.
2) This will be the ONLY response you'll ever receive from me everytime you respond to any of my posts.I don't understand why you even bother responding to my posts!
Thetubeguy1954
"2) This will be the ONLY response you'll ever receive from me everytime you respond to any of my posts."Hahahahahahahahahaahha. You've been posting this as a followup to my posts for months. Look at your other responses to me today. And you call ME a liar! Hahahahahahahaahaha. ROTFLMAO!
. . . is to someday have as much spare time as you. And, enough family and friends left that I wouldn't spend it all here! ;-)
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____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
T
In the meanwhile, I've found the website that proves that what you are hearing might be very real. A must visit for you and other subjectivists.
TB54, good luck and god(s) bless.cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
AJinFLA,I refuse to allow you to taunt me into another round of Subjectivists vs Objectivists, name-calling, insulting, berating and everything else but intelligent debating. You can believe what you wish about me and my choices in audio, SO BE IT! Your beliefs in no way affect my system and the numerous hours of enjoyment I derive from listening to it.
However I discovered this constant pickering, name-calling etc HAS taken the joy out of audio for me. It was THAT very realization that made me know I HAD to stop this going-nowhere series of posts. When something, anything robs me of my joy, I MUST let those things go. Hence for me the Subjectivist vs Objectivist battle is over...
You have been clear about your disdane for tubeguy's position(s), but without him this forum would be just a bunch of scientist and engineer wannabes who still manage to show incredible disrespect for each other while slinging stones at any "uneducated" inmates who may have only wanted to learn a few things. Those who, on this forum, claim that the death of the high-end is due to snake oil and advertising hyperbole need to look in the mirror: the arrogance and rudeness demonstrated by the holders of the audio "truth" would chase anyone away.And AJ, let's all just hope that you never have to deal with mental illness, either your own or anyone in your family. The irony just wouldn't be funny.
RY - You have been clear about your disdane for tubeguy's position(s), but without him this forum would be just a bunch of scientist and engineer wannabes who still manage to show incredible disrespect for each other while slinging stones at any "uneducated" inmates who may have only wanted to learn a few things.Learn a few things? Those who reject science completely and embrace superstition want to learn? Learn what?
Learn from scientist and engineer "wannabes"? Why?
Why here? Why not over at the Cable Asylum where the true scientists and engineers reside?RY - Those who, on this forum, claim that the death of the high-end is due to snake oil and advertising hyperbole need to look in the mirror: the arrogance and rudeness demonstrated by the holders of the audio "truth" would chase anyone away.
Objectivists helped to end the Dark Ages too (Well, for some people). Shame there also huh?
RY - And AJ, let's all just hope that you never have to deal with mental illness, either your own or anyone in your family. The irony just wouldn't be funny.If me or someone in my family heard differences between wood knobs, glow in the dark cables, etc., they should be committed immediately.
BTW, when did you get out?cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
"Learn a few things? Those who reject science completely and embrace superstition want to learn? Learn what?
Learn from scientist and engineer "wannabes"? Why?
Why here? Why not over at the Cable Asylum where the true scientists and engineers reside?"I believe I said "any 'uneducated' inmates" in my statement. Did you assume I meant only Tubeguy? I was also referring to myself and many others. Reject science? Embrace superstition? Wow, you sure do know how to project. Where did you get that concerning me? And are you a scientist or an engineer, or maybe you're in cahoots with Miss Cleo since you seem to have been able to read into me all sorts of things I myself was unaware of. oh the irony that you demonstrate a shared talent with a "psychic." Oh, and the Cable Asylum?? Come on AJ: those guys are nucking futs.
"Objectivists helped to end the Dark Ages too (Well, for some people). Shame there also huh?"No shame there, just a demonstration by you of a void in your education. Are you talking about the Renaissance? Egads. Quite a good amount of what was considered "objective" science turned out to be very wrong (see Copernicus). That doesn't do much for your argument, does it? You might consider reading up on the "Dark" Ages as well. It turns out that it was only "Dark" from a particular point of view. And just to be complete here, arrogance and rudeness in the Dark Ages were bad behavior then as well.
"BTW, when did you get out?"Sorry I didn't say "Bye" when I left, but you were busy being fitted for a new helmet. I didn't know they made them so small.
...their untoward behavior demonstrates a deep-down insecurity about themselves and their views; otherwise they'd act like regular guys who enjoy sport with one another.
But the people who hear differences every time a "High end" manufacturer creates a new cable, or a new amplifier, ad infinitum, are just so downright secure, their claims of superior hearing oh so humble.
Clark, I provided you with a helpful link above to explain these things you hear, but one can only lead a horse to water..cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
I don't believe that there really are any purists on either side of the debate. We've all got a bit of each camp, even if its more fun not to admit it. Most of the bullies on this forum are neither Objectivists nor Subjectivists: they're just bullies. Some of them are complete assholes. It's one thing to come to this forum and learn from a technically knowledgeable audiophile (is there such a thing??), but it's another to be lectured to by a prick.
Thanks for the note. It's not so much a thick skin I have, as the will not to descend to juvenile behavior.
.
(nt)
Richard BassNut Greene
My Stereo is MUCH BETTER than Your Stereo
I shall refrain from any further provocative comment.
Thanks Clifff, I accept your "parting shot" I've really had enough of this particular battle.
Clifff,Those are words of wisdom I have already put into action. I stopped at CD Warehouse and bought 4 CDs last night and really enjoyed listening to the music for the first time in days! I actually sat through all 4 CDs.
I arrived home and cooked (my wife is still in Colombia, S.A.) then I sat down and ate during the first CD. When that CD finished I got up, poured some Brandy and sipped two glasses through the next 3 CDs! Next thing I knew it was 11PM and the news said we had record lows in Orlando, FL -- down to the 40's F The nice part about tubes is I didn't have to turn on the heat, until I turned the amp off! Good listening to you Clifff.
I was typing while you posted. My bad. Please don't read my post above. Thanks.cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
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