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OK.. I'm a total ignoramus on the subject of using a computer as a source. I've been listening lately only on headphones, Sennheiser HD800's which are incredibly revealing and detailed. Mostly I'd be copying cd's onto a computer.
I can't quite get a consensus in my research on the subject of sound quality of computer files vs. cd's themselves.
Perhaps that's too broad a question, but if anyone can help me get started in understanding whether there is a way to get cd quality out of a computer (don't want to spend money on a DAC, so there's that to be considered also), it would be appreciated.
Thanks ......
Follow Ups:
Reading through the thread, and apologies if this question is dumb as I am relatively new to the world of audio hobbiest (just getting started). Is a DAC absolutely necessary, for instance if my music is 320K do I still need to get one?
In this case a used Sonos Connect maybe an easy and affordable way to get started. The DAC in it sounds pretty good, but not great.
----------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Well, some music streamers have a DAC built inside them such as the Squeezebox Touch... And for that matter all CD players have a DAC built into them..... There are some inexpensive DACs out there that perform very well.
Cut-Throat
First of all, you'll need an outboard DAC in order to get the best out of computer files vs. an audiophile CD player with a good built-in DAC. Otherwise, it's not a fair fight. Your computer is a good storage and digital audio transport source if well-configured, but the analog aspect needs to be properly addressed. Otherwise, only the digital aspect is paid attention to vs. a standalone CD player.
Greetings:
You should take a 1/8" miniplug to RCA 'Y' cord and connect the audio output (green jack) of a motherboard sound card to your stereo system. Play 'wav' files from a file recorder. Disable all EQ, effect, delay, etc. functions. Ensure that your sound card is not resampling to anything...
Listen to it closely. This is your baseline for how your computer plays back .wav files. This is the *worst* your PC/laptop will sound.
Improvements, in order of cost from "free".
1. There are tips, tricks and hacks that can be done to improve motherboard sound output. Most here would not waste their time doing this, but in actuality, these tweaks are the highest value of all because they get you 80% of the way there.
2. A good soundcard will get you 90% of the way there.
3. To get into that last 10%, you'll need the DAC you don't want to buy.
4. To get into that last 1%, you'll need to do quite a bit of research, quite a lot of listening, and explore this as an "audiophile problem" and go through the "audiophile solution process".
If you do #1 or #2 and think you're 99% of the way there, then you won't need to waste your time or money on #3 or #4.
I am listening through a $150 sound card with upgraded OP amps and it easily smokes a *good quality* CD player. I have not spun a CD in... ten years now? My entire collection is ripped (extracted) to two drives - one I use, the other is a backup.
Once you have your collection at your fingertips and can make and save playlists you'll probably never want to go back.
Some 'philes like to surf or even shop while listening with the SAME COMPUTER but this is like using an amp to warm up a sandwich. You would think it would be an audio sacrilege to use an audiophile computer for *something other than audio* while listening, but many here who fuss and fret over much PC audio minutiae do exactly that.
Personally, I think one of the most important tweaks in PC audio is having your audio PC customized for audio playback only, and having a second PC in proximity for general computer use while listening.
Ironically, this is rarely discussed here.
Get this:
http://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml
Run this utility and find out if your PC is running clean enough to avoid dropouts with audio. Note that a big cause of periodic and consistent latency spikes are wireless network cards, which can cause massive latency spikes in regular intervals. In my case, it was every 60 seconds. *DO* test while surfing the net, and watch how browsers and associated multimedia content result in major latencies.
How crazy you want to get about this whole this is up to you.
And with crazy, the sky is the limit.
Cheers,
Presto
Thanks for latency monitor link. Resplendence.com also has a good one that works with Windows 8.0
Well, if you don't want to buy a DAC, you might get better performance from your CD player than from your computer. My CD player consisted of a transport and DAC as two separate components. When I ripped all my CDs to my computer's hard drive, I played them using the same DAC to which my transport was connected. Therefore, my CDs and my computer files sounded exactly the same to me.In other words, there shouldn't be any difference in sound and I didn't hear any difference. However, if you use a different DAC for CDs versus computer files, there might be a noticeable difference and my guess is that your CD player might sound better than your computer because your CD player might have a better DAC and a better analog output section.
Good luck,
John Elison
Edits: 01/20/17
You don't have to rip CD's to get started with computer audio. Just get a $199 AudioQuest DragonFly Red and a premium subscription to Tidal. According to the review linked below, the DragonFly Red does well driving your Sennheiser HD800's. If you are not happy with the results, you can cancel Tidal after a month and can sell the DragonFly for a small loss.
If you like the result driving the headphones, you can get a 1/8" to RCA adapter and plug the DragonFly's output into your main system and give that a try.
I can't quite get a consensus in my research on the subject of sound quality of computer files vs. cd's themselves.
I can offer only my specific experience but I would guess that most of us who have transitioned to computer based systems will likely agree that they are at least on par with our old CD disc spinners in terms of audio quality, but much more convenient.
I've owned many quality CD players over the years and still have one 'high-end' unit that I keep around mostly for nostalgia's sake. Plus it's fun to look at when I reminisce and am reminded of storage shelves full of jewel cases with plastic discs in them. I still own boxes full of plastic discs but they're stored down in the basement. I'll pop a disc into the ole CDP once a month or so to keep the motor and sled lubricated ;-)
My initial goal for a computer based system was to have it sound at least as good as my CD players. That was back in the 2009 or 2010 time frame and my goal was readily achieved, along with the convenience of having all of my music easily accessible with the click of a mouse button or a tap on my iPad remote control. A modest computer, playback software, and external DAC did the job.
With newer DACs, players, and streamers "better than CD" quality is commonplace.
"...don't want to spend money on a DAC, so there's that to be considered also..."
Good luck with that!
Without a decent DAC you're left at the mercy of whatever cheap commodity digital audio subsystem and cheap analog stage your computer manufacturer wedged into the computer as an after thought. You don't need to spend megabucks on a DAC, some nice ones are available in the $500 range, but trying to achieve quality audio in a computer based system w/o one will leave you severely handicapped.
You want decent computer based audio? You have to put at least SOME effort into it. Otherwise, just keep spinning those old plastic discs.
Just my 2-cents worth.
nt
I use a simple computer audio setup. A hard drive containing my music library to a PC ( Win 10) with JRiver 22 as a server and then to my DAC. I use JRiver Gizmo to control it from a tablet at my listening position.
Actually to complicate it a bit, the path to the DAC is via an upsampling device that is used solely to turn 16 into 24 bits on the fly (no actual additional information is added ).
The sound quality is equal to , or superior to, the same upsampler to DAC fed by my CD/SACD transport.
To get quality sound from a PC you either need a DAC or a quality sound card. An external DAC is preferable due to the EMI/RF noise in the computer. Sorry but unavoidable.
The necessity of buying a decent DAC is probably going to rule out, for me, a switch to a computer source. I have a really good cd player and I'm sure I'd have to spend a decent amount of money to get an equivalent DAC.
Guess I'll continue in my anachronistic ways. Thanks for the help in making a decision.
Feel free to start ripping your CDs to your computer whether you buy a new DAC or not. As others have noted, it is just another copy of the data file that is on the CD. If your CDs are in good shape and you rip to a lossless file format, you won't have to re-rip that CD down the road even if you later buy fancier equipment.
I've been ripping files to my computer for well over 10 years now and the ones I copied in the old days play just as nicely as the CD I ripped last evening. I've never had to re-rip a file unless I came across a different version or edit of the music.
Having the files on your hard drive will let you experiment with your current setup at no cost. Then, if you do decide to go to a server based system down the road, the music end of things is all taken care of. At most, you might have to copy the files to a different computer or storage drive, but that's a simple process.
I use a Vortexbox server and am at the state where my system doesn't even have a CD player -- got rid of it about 5 years ago.
In the meantime, you'll not only have something new to play with but you'll also be creating a backup of your music collection, which is never a bad thing.
That's what I do. You add in the cost of a decent DAC , more interconnects and power cords , extra tweaks that most seem to use to improve the performance etc. and I just can't be bothered.
To me, the downloading of your music collection and the access to it through an Ipad etc. is a convenience but it doesn't for me overcome the expense and potential downfalls inherent in rather complicated computer set up. It's also difficult to find any two people who agree on the best or right way to set up the above. I think you have to enjoy the process as much as the final result.
You can buy a Raspberry Pi 3 with a DAC for less than $100.... Cost is irrelevant when it comes to Audio.....With a subscription to a streaming service, you'll never have to buy music again..... You'll actually save money in the first year and much more money in the years that follow.
A quality DAC for the Raspberry Pi is around $30 and will most likely be better than the DAC in your CD Player.
Don't look for an excuse not to do this..... Once you convert to Computer Audio, you'll wonder why it took you so long. It's Cheaper, Better, and more convenient.
Cut-Throat
Edits: 01/20/17 01/20/17
Won't find it here! :)
I'm in the camp who finds that optimized playback with a galvanically isolated renderer driven by a disk drive or memory can meet the quality of a player spinning plastic disks very slowly. And provide far more in the way of convenience and flexibility than constantly shuffling jewel cases.
Using computer based workstations is how digital recordings are captured these days as well. I'm not aware of any "direct-to-CD burned" recordings.
Others disagree.
This has no meaning except to your ears and system
other than what you hear? Viewing a panel of charts on The Faerie Sorcerer's blog? :)I've ensured that my server is providing latency-free delivery of a WAV signal. No need to dink around with Windows multimedia settings in the registry. Unless that's how you get your jollies.
As for the microRendu player, Andrew Gillis has already stripped down Linux to provide only that which is necessary for renderer duty. And John Swenson took over a year fine tuning his hardware design. It's a simple, low powered device with signal isolation and EMI suppression at the Ethernet front door and a linear regulator on the USB port with a built in regenerator at the output. And fed by a linear power supply.
Edits: 01/20/17
is that you cannot claim to have an 'optimised' system. What you said about it being optimised is poppycock.
Fred,you have to be teasing us. The microRendu is not optimized especially when used with a good LPS?
Edits: 01/21/17
you must know that no one can claim that he/she has an 'optimised' system as E Sat claimed consistently for his own. The best that can be said of it is that it satisfies him.
I have no argument with anyone who feels that his/her system is optimal for him/her. But just don't come here and boast/berate others for different, more rational approaches such as yours.
Fred, I have no idea what you are talking about.
Fred has difficulty discussing any notion of specifics.
You have clearly not followed E Stat's many posts on his 'optimised' system. So why jump in?
You are correct that I have not followed all of E-Stat's posts. I was just commenting on the microRendu which is an optimized computer with modified Linux OS.
Edits: 01/22/17
Please explain what is meant by optimised computer. How does it compare with others like the Total system components and others? Are your other components 'optimised' also, and how?
When one goes around saying that this and that are 'optimised' and when this influences others, one has to be specific about the attributes and reasons. Otherwise it is just adding to hype and self declarations.
Anything done to improve the sonic performance of a computer is an optimization. Applying AudiophileOptimizer to Windows is an optimization. Using a computer that has specialized hardware and OS is an optimization. Placing a computer on a Synergistic Research Tranquility UEF Base is an optimization. Plugging a computer into a power conditioner is an optimization. Using a REGEN or an iFi iUSB 3.0 is an optimization. Using an upgrade USB cable or Ethernet cable is an optimization . Powering the optimized computer and or hard drives with a LPS is an optimization.Optimization
noun
the action of making the best or most effective use of a situation or resource.
Edits: 01/23/17 01/23/17
The microRendu is a single purpose computer for music playback only. Heck, you know this.
Check out this Fred. It's coming this week.
I thought it was just me. ;-)
if he pleases. He's like a friend of mine who once said "I don't hold Webster as an authority"
Everyone else here but the dour Brit understands improved efficiency and processing. In the fmakian dictionary, however, the word takes on a different meaning - one of an unattainable and single realization of some arcane concept.Fmakian dictionary for "opimised" . I confess that I don't understand this strange fetish.
Edits: 01/21/17 01/21/17
but don't try to generalise and mislead others.
I don't live in your alternative universe where language is "crafted" by the individual. :)
At the expense of further confusing the issue with more facts, I don't use a "PC (personal computer) system" for playback.
Do you understand? Most likely not. No one here actually expected you to answer the question about the microRendu that both Mercman and I use.
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit. Right?
Too funny!
just tell us why, in simple terms, you have an optimised system that others should look up to. You have never been able to do so by hiding behind irrelevant remarks.
(I'm only too happy) to repeat everything I've already posted and add a few details. Despite the fact that you have not given me the courtesy of answering any of my questions.why, in simple terms, you have an optimised system that others should look up to
I've never, however, made the latter claim. At the expense of repetition (of which this post is mostly composed) I opine that I have:
1. A player that comes out of the box optimized
2. Taken additional steps in the system to optimize playbackLet's begin with a proper definition of the word "optimize" so that we are singing from the same hymnal. I posted that here.
Now, onto your post to which I first responded:I observe that with my microRendu, there's no need for arcane hacking of the registry. Andrew Gillis has already optimized a stripped down "audio toaster" version of Linux for the sole purpose of streaming a digital signal.
Previously, you have said :
"You can have a very good working system in windows with a lot of features disabled."
True. With a microRendu based system, however, any feature unnecessary to the task of streaming a digital signal simply isn't there. No need to disable anything Sherlock.
Why? Let's compare your general purpose Pipo computer with the uRendu
The Pipo contains a full version of Windows 8.1 and contains an HDMI port, four USB ports, a headphone jack and a 80211 b/g/n capable WiFi transmitter:
It is quite evident why you also found that output from one of the front USB ports is desirable to those on the back attached via additional cabling. So, what do we have that is unnecessary and should be disabled?
1. HDMI video output
2. Extra USB ports
3. Analog output from internal DAC/amplification
4. WiFi transmitterContrast that design with a device optimized solely for the purpose of streaming a digital signal. Pics courtesy of Abe who always does a splendid job of lighting:
What here requires removal or disabling? Nothing . One input. One output. One power jack. One SD memory card expansion slot. And it is fed by an HDPlex linear power supply (as found in my system profile) with an R-core transformer and lots of filtering.
You've also observed:
"To optimise a system, one adjusts parameters to a predetermined outcome."
Yes, that's what the Sonore team did for over a year in the development of the product.
Other parts of the system come into play as well. You mistakenly said:
"Below there is a post claiming that the poster has an 'optimised' high power system playing FLAC!"
No Virginia, in my system the microRendu plays WAV files. It is the file server that does the conversion. While you failed to answer my question about potential issues arising with FLAC, I understand the need to provide latency free delivery of a WAV File to the player. That's where using an i7-860 based unit with 16 GB of RAM solves the problem. Let's visually review the results of the server decoding a FLAC stream (in addition to all the other processes):
I'm thinking there is little concern that there will be latency given that the CPU rarely even blips 1% over any period of time. And with 16GB of memory, there are gigabytes available to cache the results (13263 MB to be exact). Now, how about isolation from this general purpose computer? The answer takes on several aspects:
1. It is physically located on a different floor of the house than the music system
2. It is connected to a separate mains fusebox than the music system. In my home, there is one for the downstairs and one for the upstairs.
3. The audio system uses two 20A dedicated lines to the upstairs box
4. The sources use aftermarket power cords and go through a conditioner
5. Shielded CAT7 ethernet cable is used. Arguably, something like Audioquest Vodka would be better but since a five foot run goes for $338 and mine is a fifty foot run, I'm not going to optimize that aspect of the system. :)Finally, the proof is in the pudding. You've also posted:
"Even in an average but well configured system, one can hear fine differences, though not as finely 'balanced' as in a high end system"
Do I have a high end system in your opinion? Remember details and pics are available in my profile.
This is an audio site devoted to enthusiasts who wish to learn from others and share their own experiences in good faith and good cheer. I have answered every question you've posed to me - sometimes on multiple occasions without your returning the favor.
Are you going to provide an adult response that provides any facsimile of constructive and specific observations about any of the details covered ? Or, will you continue to stand like Dorothy repeating your mantra to Toto - "There's no such thing as an optimised system, there's no such thing as an optimised system"?
Honestly, I don't know why I bother attempting to have a meaningful discussion with surly folks who are unwilling to engage in intelligent discourse.
Sheesh!
Edits: 01/22/17
...but I commend you for trying! Your graphic aides might help but he's not fond of pictures.
"Viewing a panel of charts on The Faerie Sorcerer's blog? :)"Ain't that the truth!
I have an SOtM SMS-200 coming to compare to my microRendu. Lots of fun here.
Edits: 01/20/17
You first have to understand that a CD is Digital Stored on a Plastic Disk that is spinning.... Vs. "computer" which is Digital Stored on a Spinning hard Drive or a Solid State Drive. They are both Digitial on different Mediums. You can store digital music on a Thumb Drive, an SD Card, a Micro SD Card --- It doesn't matter that much where the music is stored.... What matters are the components that are used to play it back, The DAC, the Streamer etc.In other words there is not much difference in the technology. So, you can't just compare cd vs. computer..... It's all of the quality of the components. The CD player has a built in DAC.... So you are already using a DAC.
If you put together quality components with music stored on a hard drive it will be equal to or exceed a CD player... You have more options with a computer..... CDs are dying and have been dead for myself for 5 years.
Cut-Throat
Edits: 01/19/17 01/19/17
First of all, what do you have for a system for inmates to take into consideration before anyone responds (CD Player, Preamp)? Secondly, what are you trying to accomplish. If you want better sound quality, inmates may provide specific inputs (better player or outboard DAC). If you want comparable sound quality but the "flexibility" of having everything stored on a Server, that can take us down a different path. I like diversity and randomness, so I stream everything I listen to from free online sources (Accuradio) - which works for me. i.e., Classic Rock or Trumpet solo's. I just let it play not knowing what will come up next, and just skip over a piece if I don't like it.
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