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In Reply to: RE: And just the opposite again ;-) posted by AbeCollins on November 08, 2016 at 08:41:06
Once I do discern that I like something even just a little better, I'll miss it when it's gone, so I will go for it.
Many DAC makers base their whole thing on Upconverting PCM and DSD to multi rate DSD.
PS Audio, Exasound, Lampizator, the new Myteks, among others I can't remember.
They must do it because they believe in it, not because they are going to rake in the bucks from suckers like me!
As a musician, I always go for a reed, mouthpiece or horn that may sound only a little better, but better is better to me.
And I still listen to CDs and SACDs , but mostly use HQ for DSD 128.
Anyway, thanks to all for your replies.
Follow Ups:
Now those same companies are jumping on the MQA bandwagon. Do you really think they believe in it and are not out just to make money.? Really
Alan
I don't believe for one second that DSD is universally better sounding than hi-res PCM, but the magazines needed something to write about. This generated advertising revenue for the mags and demand for the makers of DSD capable DACs. Some DAC makers updated their products to the new technology even if they didn't believe in it... just to maintain appeal to the broader market and not be left behind. So they all (almost all) got on board and everyone was happy.Until the next new thing came along.
And as you already mentioned, here we go with MQA. Everybody better get onboard or be left behind. The magazines are all behind it. The reviewers are all having nothing but great things to say about it. It's the next new thing that we all need. Sell your old gear before it tanks in value! Buy a new MQA capable DAC. ;-)
Edits: 11/08/16
There's no Objective Base in all this.
It's All Perception.
Mine is different than yours.
End of story, I guess.
Oh, you mean like John Siau of Benchmark Audio? ;-)
"DSD is a marketing term, not a technical term. It doesn't mean anything except what Sony and Philips decided it would mean."
"I consider DSD a lossy format. Anyone would if they were familiar with the steps audio is taken through in order to maintain the illusion that it stays 1-bit throughout. Delivering a DSD file to the consumer is only excusable if this happens to be the format that the ADC physically operates in and if the data it spits out is delivered to the consumer as is, with nothing more than the occasional "Philips" style splice."
"We now have one of the senior design engineer at Philips during DSD's development calling it a "lossy format"..."
The experts can argue all they want.
It doesn't change what I hear.
+2, as do I and DSD 128 reproduced correctly, does in fact has its merits, and here I'm referring to a better sense of seperation of notes, much more airier highs with greater extension and lower bass notes which in " my system " dig deeper without overhang, or smearing of the notes themselves.
Granted one has to increase the volumn somewhat, as I believe it's due to the compressed nature of many PCM files, that DSD is heard as smoother, more refined or relaxed if you will........, but when heard correctly........, to " my ears, and in my system " it comes across as more organically correct, as far as tonal purity goes.
But as stated above........, there's an emphasis on " to my ears ".
measuring peak level distance from 0db.
.4 db difference.
Doesn't really matter to me, I set the Volume by ear for each File.
As do I, but on my dac it comes across as more centrally balanced, if that makes any sense?, and I've to adjust the volumn from my amps readout from 46 ( DXD 705 or 352 ) and upwards to 52 ( DSD 128 ), yet I'd guess it's now certain dac implement said settings for each.
Either way.........., I can enjoy both for what they do. And once again to my ears, I'm glad to have a dac which does both of them extremely well.
First off excuse my misspellings, as the eyes aren't what they once were. But in truth........., I'm most happy for myself that I can make out said differences to begin with, the rest of it like most things in life remain subjective at best, as no one rule applies to all, in which case I'm for diversity as well as individual thinking or rational logic.
Excellent - we're in complete agreement there. ;-)
Granted one has to increase the volume somewhat, as I believe it's due to the compressed nature of many PCM files, that DSD is heard as smoother, more refined or relaxed if you will........, but when heard correctly........,
I'm not sure what you mean by the 'compressed nature of PCM files'. Are you talking about the sound or the compression of digital bits?
In any case, I find many PCM files to sound more dynamic than the somewhat (to me) unnaturally 'polished smooth' sound of many SACD and DSD that I've listened to. The expected 'bite' in some tunes appears almost as if they were artificially sanded away with fine grit sandpaper. If there's supposed to be some 'bite' and 'edge' in a tune, I don't want it artificially relaxed and polished. But that's just the way I hear it. I personally tend to prefer hi-res PCM.
"Bite" isn't something I necessarily value.
What-Hi-Fi talks about that all the time, they usually want more.
/
Hi, I didn't mean that an edgy Instrument shouldn't sound edgy, or a Violin digging in to the strings shouldn't have that grunt.
I was referring to overall peaks in the playback.
I never really go for Concert Hall realism in PB Volume.
One reviewer said he wanted 5th Row Concert Hall Volume in his home,
which for me is ridiculous, and he may end up damaging his ears that way, IMHO.
I've come to the conclusion that it's pointless to have these Format Conversations.
So I for one will bow out at this point.
I would not suggest that one is necessarily 'better' than the other.
I agree, and we are all lucky to have so many alternatives,
both in Music selection and playback equipment.
I do sometimes think there's a lot of negative energy directed at DSD.
Certainly not every woodwind player uses the same equipment I do.
It's the results that matter.
Not that many wouldn't sound better if they used what I do, tho...
Well, there I go again!
As long as Trump doesn't outlaw DSD, I'll be Ok.
Blue Coast says the DAC matters more than the format.
My DSD-only Dac sounds better than my Mytek, so I use it most.
Maybe in a few years I'll get something better yet, and for all formats.
Of course, I'll be 105, but Hey...!
This is because of your system and how it is setup. It also have something to do with your pcm expectancies as described..
"This is because of your system and how it is setup ."
Says the master of 'safe' generalities.
Care to go out on a limb, out of your comfort zone of inane gibberish? Can you be a little more specific in your claim? Let me help you:
- What is it about my system?
- What about how it is setup?
Hi Abe,
That's exactly what I was trying to say. Yet as I do tend to rotate between said DSD 128 and DXD 705, I can say that said differences to me are that while I hear DXD 705, as having a weightier, more accurate presentation, with DSD 128 I'm just as content with the manner in which it seperates each instrument in a cleaner manner, and in hindsight I was an early proponent of SA-CDs, as I for one loved the way in which they integrated the highs as compared to standard redbook cd recordings.
But in the end, it's what the end user likes, no!.
Yes, exactly 'what the end user likes' !!
If we had only DSD I'd be perfectly happy with it. But since we have hi-res PCM, I do prefer it ever so slightly over DSD. But I don't dislike DSD as both DSD and PCM can sound wonderful.
Valid point Abe,
I'm not saying one is better then the other, as seemingly I enjoy both myself. But in many ways it can be viewed much like the never ending debates like analog vs digital, and tube vs solid state technology.
But as my illness forced me to leave behind vinyl, I've to say this whole computer audio thing has my toes tapping in time, so much so I wish I had gotten into earlier........., whom knows, maybe just maybe I'd be enjoying an Aurender A10 by now!.
Sweet Dreams indeed......., but only dreams, I should add.
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong with your own recordings - DSD may indeed be the best FOR YOU. But look how this thread started - you were trying to justify your own preferences with a dubious (IMHO) correlation to higher bit rates. I'm afraid I can't necessarily go with you down that road.
There are probably other reasons I like DSD128.
I suspect most here have never heard it...
I suppose only Analog has Complete Wave Forms.
Do you hear the little stair-steps in the PCM wave forms? ;-)
Seriously, do yourself a favor and spend 25 minutes watching the video at this link:
I base my opinions on listening, not Articles.
I don't know Why I like DSD 128 so much, just throwing out some ideas.
If they are wrong, that's fine.
My ears aren't wrong.
Nor are yours.
Edits: 11/12/16
I don't know if you saw the old Peanuts cartoon, where Charlie Brown is walking along with Lucy, and is saying, "Wouldn't it be a terrible world if everybody thought the same way and had the same ideas!". Lucy thinks for a minute and then replies, "Oh, I don't know. . . if everybody agreed with ME, they'd all be right!".
Nevertheless, you are under a misapprehension if you say that the DSD waveform is somehow "purer". What you seem to be doing is trying to justify your preference for DSD with questionable reasoning IMHO. But I agree that there's nothing wrong with your preference for DSD per se.
I do prefer DSD 128, but I don't know why.
I have absolutely no Tech knowledge about Digital Audio, or Computers, for that matter.
I know how to use them, but that's it.
And I feel that a lot of negative energy goes toward dissing DSD,
and from some who don't even listen to it, or haven't heard it at its Optimum.
I wonder if Oppo or the entry level PS Audio really show what DSD can sound like.
I don't dislike 24/96-192, but my equipment sounds better in DSD.
In fact my Lampizator Only plays DSD, up sampled PCM or DSD.
Blue Coast says the DAC matters more than the Format, but there is no agreed-upon Standard for what Music could or should sound like, it's different through every piece of equipment, so there's no Absolute Playback, just your rig, my rig, somebody else's rig.
And there's always something better, if you could just afford it!
If I'm a DSD Cheerleader, so be it!
But you don't need to come to our Games...
But you are Welcome anyway.
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