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In Reply to: RE: microRendu review & snapshots of its internals (the guts) - pics posted by soundchekk on August 22, 2016 at 10:34:51
HW cost > $100? Without a power supply??
Soundchekk: "No way.
They intend to play in the traditional audiophile audio league.
That's a strategic decision you take.
At 129$ you'd sell ten thousand(s) like Logitech did.
Or you sell a couple of hundred/thousands pieces at best at that high price.
I'm wondering if anybody seriously buys that $1400 power supply?
Ok. Ok. You never know. I've seen people spending 1500$ on software. ;)"
I agree with you Soundchekk. While I'm sure a number here will disagree with me that I do not believe (and have seen no evidence) that the hardware is capable of making the playback sound better through a good asynch USB DAC, I can appreciate the software and its flexibility.
Assuming there are no issues with software licensing (since a bunch of it is open source), I think if they sold a microSD card with the software for something like $100 would be reasonable for those who want to buy their own Raspberry Pi 2 or maybe Pi 3. Perhaps a whole package for $200 with Sonore Edition Pi hardware (with a nice metal case) and a reasonable SMPS power supply.
But at >$600 without power supply? Looking the way it does? Clearly they're aiming for the "audiophile audio league" and not to the sensible audiophile looking for actual value IMO.
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Archimago's Musings: A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
Follow Ups:
The microRendu replaces whatever streaming device you already use in the audio room. If my customers feel the unit is as good or better compared to whatever they were using before...I'm satisfied.
In regards to making our software available for the Pi...this is off the table for reasons already discussed above.
You comment about value is rather offensive. On Friday night I logged into a unit from remote and helped a customer setup JRiver. I removed his library, loaded it again, checked his settings, and confirmed playback. This was free support and nothing related to the microRendu. I think there is some inherent value there that you overlooked.
What a joke of a post. Birds of a feather....Another arm chair engineer who could not market a viable product if your life depended on it. So you lash out.
"Clearly they're aiming for the "audiophile audio league" and not to the sensible audiophile looking for actual value IMO"
This about a $640 product?????? How many Roon ready products do you know of that are less expensive. I know of one or two.
Hysterical. The Sonore design team, Jesus R, John Swensen, etc. could have you for breakfast. Like your friend, you are a knat they will flick away
EDITl The most comical part is you also have never heard or seen it.
Edits: 08/22/16
Speaking of "birds of a feather".
As if "The Sonore design team, Jesus R, John Swensen, etc." and other cults of personalities have any magical abilities to change the laws of physics and bend the truth of computer science in engineered products.
A wise man knows that he doesn't *need* to experience everything to be able to be skeptical when he has experience and tested other things and can extrapolate the knowledge.
If Jesus, John, etc... can come up with some engineering evidence, then it's worth a look. Swenson's commentary when he posted on the Regen last year was enough for anyone to read between the lines to question the principles of his beliefs. $640 isn't a big deal but why not spend money elsewhere - like on good music!?
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
$640 isn't a big deal but why not spend money elsewhere - like on good music!?It all depends upon your objectives. I was skeptical too, as to how its sonic performance compares to my linear power supplied Touch.
Results? I find it offers a worthwhile level of improved transparency, low end response and low level dynamics. The Touch remains a great product, but mine is now used in the garage system.
Total investment closer to $1000 using HD-Plex linear supply.
Edits: 08/24/16
You don't even have the conviction back your rants. And you are a helluva bore.
Design and market your own player. Don't be envious of a company that sold 1000 units in 3 months. Envy is not becoming.
Selling 1000 units in 3 month. Great argument !!!!Proving what!?!? 1000 audiophile nuts with big wallets running after the next gadget?
I know John Svensson quite well btw.
He's IMO not the most innovative guy. He's pretty much a quality guy.
He pretty much just takes what's there or already known stuff and
applies a little tweaking.
Basically he built a high quality USB hub and now he built a quality Raspberry Pi or rather a Pi Zero.This all is no rocket science my friend. And for sure not worth 640$ - IMO.
Obviously John has quite convincing communication skills - at least towards his target group "the audiophiles" and "audiophile press". He even managed
to survive the rather tough squeezebox forum.
Don't forget John S as well as e.g Thorsten L. never really built up
their own long lasting businesses as far as I've been able to follow that.
It's one thing to be an excellent engineer and another to run your own business.On the other hand, try to recall what G. Rankin - the Great - has been selling you audiophiles for years.
"Asynchronous USB Audio - The holy grail"Some of you/us had and most of you should have realized by now that "Asynchronous USB Audio" wasn't the holy grail of computer audio.
We had quite some arguments about that for quite a while during those days.
And I do think that that marketing myth even slowed down the evolution
of USB audio for quite some time.All these great engineers, bound to a business, are selling you, what's on the table. Nothing more and nothing less.
Most of them are even aware of the flaws and weaknesses.
Obviously business interests prevent from talking about these.
The (audiophile) industry sells and lives from "Progress" and not "Perfection".Even if some of us ask for perfection, they argue around it and sell you progress.
Which is fair enough!!! Many people are happy with that. It's a free market out there.
Enjoy.
PS: I'm not defending Archimago btw. I do have my problems with his methods and conclusions myself.
Edits: 08/23/16 08/23/16
This does not need to get personal. John is not here attacking anyone.
Hey Soundchekk.
Right. We have our disagreements but it's good that we can also agree to disagree on some things while other thoughts resonate. Life's complex.
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
Isaak writes: "You don't even have the conviction back your rants. And you are a helluva bore.
Design and market your own player. Don't be envious of a company that sold 1000 units in 3 months. Envy is not becoming."
Gee what conviction are you looking for? Taking out a credit card and spending $640 dollars to compare every time Swenson claims something he never proves ? Anybody around here can do that.
It takes more conviction to not be swayed by every hyped product out there and truly stand by one's beliefs and call a spade a spade because it's *obvious*. It's like arguing with folks who have faith in all those Synergistic products!
Anyhow. I stand by the principle that what the uRendu does can be replicated by anyone with a Raspberry Pi and a little knowhow. The software looks good and intuitive. And if they sold just the software at a price like $100, I'd be happy to buy it as I stated above.
Trust me. I have no envy for Mr. Swenson et al. I know not how many they sell nor really care. Good luck to him for making money. It's a tough business and marketing is part of the game. Just interested in what is or what isn't...
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
I'm not against people doing this. In addition, when we work on projects that are open source everyone in the open source community benefits from it. For example: All the native DSD work we have participated in is available to everyone including our hardware and software competition. Anyway, IMHO if you are going to do a DYI audio project you really are better off using a CuBox.
Just for the record the µRendu is not based on the Raspberry Pi. It is based on a SolidRun System on a Module (SoM) with a lot good engineering work on it's carrier board where all the audiophile related optimizations occur.
There might be others but the Bryston BD-π is the only audiophile streamer that I am aware of that uses the Raspberry Pi.
Right, thank Abe for the clarification. Also thank you for the pictures of the guts of the machine!IMO, the SolidRun SoM is nothing special and costs something like $65 at most (surely less than that in bulk with just 512M RAM). As for the carrier, good engineering perhaps but I have doubts that this leads to audible difference from say a reference implementation of USB, low power infrastructure, communications bus made with good quality parts. I assume this was probably an custom design with both Swenson & SolidRun's input to interface with their processor board?
I maintain that the best part of this whole system is the software... And wouldn't mind buying that separately.
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Archimago's Musings: A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
Edits: 08/23/16 08/23/16
Furthermore, let's not forget that Solid Run Clearfog is $90!
Have a look at its carrier board.
Bibo01,
Very COOL... SFP!
Bob
If ClearFog Base had a TDM header like the Pro version, it would be capable of I2S/DSD output too.
Try to imagine: a ClearFog + reclocker added internally to a DAC which would have SFP input.
That would be REALLY cool!!!
Nice Bibo.
BTW: Anyone here running an optical home network?
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
I posted this in the AudioStream review of the micro.
Optical fiber to Ethernet isolators can result in connection issues. Some users have reported connection issues resulting from firmware deficiencies on the devices and compatibility issues between the various components from different manufacturers. As such, we don't generally advocate the use of these devices. However, I understand that need for some to go "to infinity and beyond." That said, we are sponsoring Ted Brady (CA member) to develop a how to guide related to the use of these devices. The how to guide will show recommended setups and suggest components that work together well. I'll post a link when the guide is complete.
Yes many people do. Read CA tons of posts of the subject
Thanks Bob,
Will look into that. Does seem to be a lot of expense for the infrastructure as well as the converters. Hopefully things have become more reasonably priced since I looked into this a couple years ago...
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
Not costly at all, Ebay is a good source for surplus and generic fiber gear.
Do you pride your self on being out of touch? For someone who presents them selves as an "authority", you leave a lot to be desired.Total expense for optical isolation should be no more than $120..$200 if you go nuts.
You had egg on your face after being schooled on the microRendu, so this was a lame attempt to pivot. Try again.
Edits: 08/24/16
Thanks Bibo. ClearFog - nice looking board. USB3 and dual gigabit ethernet on board is interesting and novel in a little computer like this...
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Archimago's Musings : A 'more objective' audiophile blog.
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