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I'm intending to put some v-caps in my tube amplifier, only problem is they apparently need abut 400hours of break in before they sound as they should.
I don't want to leave my amp on 24/7
How do I go about "cooking" these things before soldering them in?
I believe It can be done via the line outs of my cd player or tuner?
Any suggestions?
Edits: 01/01/11Follow Ups:
Some say that this fet an the tube are the same...an one sounds better that the other...right
You say
I'm intending to put some v-caps in my tube amplifier, only problem is they apparently need abut 400hours of break in before they sound as they should.
I have Some V-caps here for over a year .....[Youll break in be for thay do] Thay sound like crap....So if you dont like the sound after the breakin your out of the group....This is the bull that has been push,et for a long time when wire came on the seen, buy people in sales....give it time...yea.. youll learn to like the sound mybe... bS...Diff for the sack of diff means nothing...but hay it your $$$$ do what you will but...if you pay more it has to sound better...Look at Ralphs MA1s amps, thay can be diyed for For $1k pr an some time but some well pay over $15k, an if you dont like the sound give it time...Right more BS
PS. Black gate more bs .. I have them here i see no diff than the $1.from digkey
I have no prob with anyone liking any thing
but it just your one mans o-pine..No need to say it the way to go..
Goodluck with your dream...all anyone can say is there diff.
Just like this... Nuf said...Well is it?
Here's the "Cap Rack" chocka full of Black Gates
I've used an old computer power supply pushing 20v.I'm going to put a 1000hrs on them before soldering them into my amp(s)
Heads up Lew "Sonic Craft" has a load of Black Gates right at this moment, get em while you can!
(I'll post this info to the tube asylum Saturday afternoon)
Edits: 02/24/12
Hopefully the link will work.
RJM Audio
The - CAP RACK
I will need to break-in a number of CUTF V-Caps before too long. Would sure be nice to have a definitive solution to breaking in multiple caps simultaneously outside of the equipment..
I am in the same boat. I have some Vcaps and some other film caps to break in. A few years ago, I broke in some teflon caps in two ways: (1) I got hold of a DC power supply and applied the upper limit of the rated voltage to the caps for 24 or 48 hours. A guy at Relcap suggested this and he said that ideally the caps should get a little bit warm in the process. (2) I then took the same caps and put them on a cable cooker, an older NLA product that I happen to own, for another several days. The cable cooker puts a "white noise", i.e., a fluctuating AC signal, thru them. All of this seemed to help. Be aware that putting a capacitor alone across the output of a DC power supply is not going to make the PS very happy. You are better off to run a power resistor in series with the caps. Similarly, on the cable cooker I believe I ran a resistor in parallel with the caps. That's what I cannot remember, series or parallel.
Hey Lew,
Thanks for the info,
I don't have access to any 500-600v dc supply, sounds franken scary.
Nor a cable cooker, I read something earlier today that alluded to using a tuner (which I now no longer own!) and introducing white noise from the rca's?
Sure. A tuner or a CD player set on REPEAT will do the same as a cable cooker.
In real life, I am an MD/scientist, so I can periodically "borrow" a DC power supply from my own lab at work. (We have a couple of obsoleted ones that just take up shelf space.) However, Lambda DC power supplies are easy to find on eBay. (Lambda is a reputable brand. BioRad is one other.)
Now where does that pesky load resistor go, in series or in parallel? You just want to be sure that the DC PS or the white noise generator does not see zero or very low impedance at any frequency from hot to ground. The impedance of a cap to DC is infinite, if the cap is not broken. The impedance of a cap to AC is linearly and inversely proportional to frequency, i.e., high Z at low frequency, low Z at high frequencies. If you put R in series with C, the Z cannot ever go below that of the value of R. So I tend to favor the series connection.
Hi Mashley and Lew
Please explain to me the concept of breaking in a capacitor. What do you expect to happen to it? Is there any scientific data for anything good happening to a capacitor when you break it in? Does it ever gets worse when you break it in? How long time do you need to break it in? How did you arrive at this particular time? Do you feel a need to break in film capacitors as well?
My primary coupling cap used to be MIT RTX, which are multi-section, polystyrene dielectric caps. They sound pretty awful for the first many hours of use (don't ask me how many hours, because I don't know, never kept track). I once mentioned this to whomever answers the phone at REL, which make the capacitor. He suggested applying a DC voltage to the cap at the rated voltage or very slightly above, enough to make the cap get "warm", for several hours at least, prior to use, as a way of foreshortening the perceived "break-in" time. He described the physical process in terms of the dielectric conforming to the conductive element, or something like that. When I did as he suggested with an external DC power supply, for several days prior to installation of the caps, it did seem to help. I later added the AC break-in process empirically; it's not really different from just using the capacitor but it speeds up the process, and I don't have to listen to it when it is not yet cooked. You are free to argue that break-in is a myth. You can call this mental masturbation. And you may be right. I later did the same with teflon caps, which I have come to prefer vs the MIT RTX, altho I still rate the latter as very good. If you search the AA archives, especially the Tweakers Asylum, I am sure you can find reams of posts on theory and practice in capacitor break-in.
FWIW, I have never ever bothered or even thought about break-in of electrolytic power supply capacitors. I just install them and go listen to music.
Hi Lew and others
My impression is that you got upset by my questions. If you read my post again you will find that I have only asked questions, not argued any particular stand point. The way you talk about "cooking capacitors" I got the impression that it is a common held knowledge/belief that you get a positive effect by cooking your capacitors. As this a blank field to me a posted my questions.
Basically I think it a sound starting point to be sceptic about early and scattered observations. Having said that I also think that you should keep an open mind. If you and others that you trust repeatedly observe a particular phenomenon one should take note and ask questions regarding how the observed phenomenon could be explained. I think that that is part of the fun of our hobby.
Back in the late 60s early 70s me and some friends observed that different types of capacitors and later also cables sounded differently. This is common knowledge today but certainly was not back then. Most people were very sceptic to these observations until they had a chance to experience it themselves. I believe that it was Walt & Jung who wrote a pioneering article in "Audio Amateur" explaining that a capacitor is not just a capacitor but also an inductance and several resistors. Others have followed explaining why different dielectrics will effect the sound. There are numerous of other odd observations like that we can detect absolute phase in the audio chain and so on, that has been observed and then later explained. I would say that I am rather open to odd observations however there is a limit to my openness. I refuse to "cook" silver mains cords or even use them.
Back to the subject. Lew if I understand you correctly a reason for things improving would be that the dielectric will integrate with the foil by the heating process. If so, why is it not done at the factory? If I here a capacitor that I find is sub standard I really would not bother trying to cook it. There are others out there that will sound fine right from the start. Is there a particular reason for you and others to go the length of "cooking" it that I have missed?
Have you found that this "coooking" process affects other capacitors than pollystyrenes?
Dear decca,
For some reason, I did not read your post until now. I don't quite know why you felt I was being at all hostile to your original post, which contained many questions about capacitor break-in, most of which I am not equipped to answer. What I therefore did do was to relate to you and others my own personal experiences that lead me to believe there is some benefit to "breaking in" a capacitor, and I gave some details as to the methods I personally use, one suggested to me by a techno guy at REL who really seemed to know what he was talking about (even though I am incapable of re-stating his case), and the other devised by me just based on common sense (at least MY common sense). However, you asked many other challenging questions as well, which I admit I ignored largely because I don't know all the answers.
Now, why don't they break in capacitors at the factory (you ask)? I have no idea why not, but in fact "they" (insert any one of a dozen quality capacitor-makers) might be doing some break-in that we are not told about. Surely the best most expensive caps ARE tested for value, voltage tolerance, etc.
You also wrote, " If I here [sic] a capacitor that I find is sub standard I really would not bother trying to cook it. There are others out there that will sound fine right from the start." Yes but how many times in your life have you been able to test a capacitor before purchase? For me the answer is "never".
You also wrote, "Is there a particular reason for you and others to go the length of "cooking" it that I have missed?" As for me, I did state the reason both in my original post and just above in this post. "Cooking" (exposure to high voltage for 24-48 hours) was suggested to me by an apparently knowledgeable person at REL.
You also asked whether only polystyrenes need break-in. The question pre-supposes that we all agree that polystyrenes need break-in. Suffice to say that the process did seem to help for REL MIT RTXs. It may be my imagination, but I thought it helped with REL teflon caps, too.
Thanks for your answer Lew.
The subject about capacitors is an interesting one. I heard from a friend of mine that was over the other night that polystyrenes are actually baked at the factory in the production process. The foil and the dielectric are initially joined together. At this point the capacitance is lower than at the end of the process. After that the capacitors are heated so that dielectric shrinks resulting in the foil and polystyrene joining closely. This raises the capacitance to the value aimed for. So what you do may well take the production process a bit further. It would be interesting if you could measure the capacitance of the capacitors that you cook and see if there is any change in capacitance. It could be that the effect that you here is due to something entirely different, however.
I have some friends who are discriminating when listening. If there is an indication that there is a new capacitor that is of interest and not outrageously expensive (there are many of these about now days) we buy a pair and make a comparison with our standard. If it is any better it will be included in our arsenal for future projects or an immediate change if very good.
Many many years ago I bought 8-10 polypropylenes that were heavily promoted by TAS. I believe they were called Wonder Caps. After listening to them my reaction was that the only heating process proper for these items would be that performed by an incinerator. Since then I have become a bit more sceptical to buying more than two as a starting order.
The reference that I gave on authors of pioneering articles about capacitors was half right half wrong. Please go to the very informative site below, about capacitors were you will also get the correct authors.
http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm
IIRC, Wonder Caps were the progenitor of Infinicaps which then gave way to Dynamicaps, all from the same source. This suggests that Wonder Caps were metallized film caps, where the film was probably polypropylene. IMO, metallized film caps as a class, except maybe the new Clarity MR caps and Auricaps (and some say Dynamicaps), are not in the same class with the best film and foil caps. But I do recall when Wonder Caps were the "next big thing" and were well thought of. Perhaps you should have broken in those Wonder Caps back then. There are still guys in DIY audio who still to this day like them.
Perhaps I gave you the wrong impression. I do not sit around "cooking" capacitors on a daily, weekly, or even yearly basis. I have done it once or twice before in my entire life. Right now it so happens that I have a bunch of new film caps, and I have been thinking of doing it again, to cook them all at one go. In general, however, I try to choose parts carefully and then live with them for years.
As an aside, have you listened to the Russian oil caps available on ebay? I generally dislike oil caps but some guys really like those Russian ones. And of course they are dirt cheap.
Hi Lew
The Wonder Caps that I bought had magnetic connectors/leads witnessing of lack of knowledge of the manufacturer of the basics so I am afraid any cooking would not help in my particular case.
I have listened may times to paper in oil capacitors and I know that the very popular in some quarters. The ones that I have listened to all had a very marked roll-of in the heigh frequencies and sometimes a lack of inter transient silence. In certain cases this can be a blessing but generally speaking I see this as shortcomings. The sound becomes very soothing but lacks precision and airiness. Today there are so many other alternatives that I much prefer.
There is so much hype around capacitors that it is downright scary, with regard to brand name, materials used to construct them, break-in, paralleling, bypassing, u-name-it. Every style and approach has its adherents. I share your distaste for oil caps. I was using some fancy expensive VTV silver foil/oil caps as bypass in my Atma-sphere amplifiers. After several months, three out of four caps in two monoblocks were grossly leaking their fluids and were leaky electrically as well. That was my last experiment with oil caps.
"You can call this mental masturbation"
I will certainly not.
Even if I do not understand the possible underlying physical process that could explain the reported sonic improvement after the 'break in' of polystirene capacitors, all audiophiles know that the ear is the final judge. If you can perceive the difference prior and after break in there must be some explanation. We should not exclude 'a priori' a possibility just because we can not explain it.
For example, the Nobel French laureate Luc Montagner (the discoverer of the HIV virus) has recently accepted an offer from China to manage a giant completely new laboratory in Shanghai to carry out a research on ELECTROMAGNETIC EMISSION FROM VIRUS DNA IN HIGHLY DILUTED WATER SOLUTIONS.
Montagner says that China is the only country on the planet that do not refuse such ideas that he thinks are simply too much ahead of present times to be accepted in the West for funding.
Break in of capacitors in my opinion is much less demanding to be accepted as working hypothesis than ELECTROMAGNETIC EMISSION FROM VIRUS DNA.
Best Regards
Luca
ecc230
My impression is that some caps break in more than others. The old MIT caps were one that always seemed to need sometime otherwise they sounded 'chalky' to me.
Teflons seem to be far less demanding. Its been my impression that the circuitry involved with the act of replacing the capacitors is where most of the break-in seems to occur.
In my remark about "mental masturbation", I was only trying to avoid any potential conflict with anyone who may think that "break-in" of capacitors or other bits of audio gear is due to one's ear-brain becoming used to a new change in sound, rather than to physical alteration of components that may occur during initial use. I just did not wish to waste my time by arguing the point one way or the other.
As a virologist myself, I do appreciate the bit about LaMontagne, as well. Since HIV is an RNA virus (i.e., its genetic information is encoded in RNA, not DNA), I wonder that he would be involved in studies of "virus DNA". Moreover, if virus DNA has the potential for electromagnetic emissions, then the DNA genome of any living thing has similar possible properties. I guess viruses are a good place to start. Maybe we humans are a major source of EMI in our own listening environments; we should wrap ourselves in TI shield. (Just kidding, of course.)
The latter name is quite common in the US, so I fell into it by virtue of its familiarity. Did you know that Robert Gallo (self-proclaimed co-discoverer of the cause of AIDS along with Luc Montagnier, but not awarded the Nobel) and I go to the same barber? The barber never tires of reminding me.
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