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"For the life of me, I CANNOT understand a criticism like this!"

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Doktor Brahms

In Reply to: RE: Vanska and the Minnesotans finally complete their Sibelius cycle posted by Chris from Lafayette on August 14, 2016 at 09:10:46

Unfortunately, Chris, I can.

Let me be clear: since Sibelius is on my shortlist of favorite composers, BIS is a critically important presence in my music collection, and I view Robert von Bahr as a truly heroic figure. And of course I've been collecting the new Vanska/Minnesota cycle, with this last disc soon to be ordered.

Having said that, I can understand the criticism leveled by Musicweb International's reviewer. Especially with Vanska's recordings, I sometimes struggle to hear the lower dynamics. But this is due almost entirely to the compromised nature of my hearing, which makes the lowest part of the dynamic scale challenging to apprehend. And I'm not even sure I would accept the "genuine concert hall experience" claim, because I attend about 18-20 live orchestral concerts a year (on average) in various venues, and what I hear on some of Vanska's recordings is not what I hear in the concert hall. And oddly enough, it's also not what I hear in a lot of other BIS recordings, such as the recent discs out of Bergen. My guess? Vanska's approach to dynamics is like Celibidache's approach to tempi: let's see how close to the breaking point I can get this.

Your enthusiasm about the performances in view here causes me to anticipate my first listening, but I will reserve the right to be dissatisfied with the dynamics. Is that OK? And if Vanska's dynamics are too much for my bum hearing, well...there's always Ormandy!

Thanks for your post, and for addressing the two reviews. I guess it's one of those YMMV things.

Follow Ups:

DB - I do understand where you're coming from - Chris from Lafayette 12:18:40 08/14/16 (4)
But are you suggesting that the BIS engineers somehow expanded the dynamic range for this recording (beyond what naturally occured in the musicians' playing in the hall)? Or perhaps, if I'm reading your post right, you're thinking that Vanska himself is the culprit? Dave Hurwitz kind of suggests that too - he considers Vanska's extreme dynamics a mannerism. For me, the extremes of the dynamic range are simply an expansion in the arsenal of devices which the conductor can employ to generate even more expressiveness from the music (when used properly - and that qualification is of course a whole can of worms in itself!).

As I say, I do see where you're coming from, so perhaps we just differ as to how extreme a range of dynamics a conductor should use. There are probably a lot of other variables which enter in too, such as the particular piece being played, what kind of hall the orchestra is playing in, etc. Here's a link to Dave's review if you haven't seen it already:
- http://www.classicstoday.com/review/vansko-finishes-not-hot- (Open in New Window)
- RE: DB - I do understand where you're coming from - pbarach 15:56:50 08/15/16 (2)
  I haven't heard the Minnesota Orchestra in many years. However, I have heard the Cleveland Orchestra in Severance Hall many times. Their pianissimo is as soft as anybody's, e.g., the end of Mahler 9. I never have trouble hearing the softest notes they play, and they are not deafening me at full blast either. In contrast, I can't hear the opening of Vanska's Beethoven 9th at a reasonable volume at home without getting NAILED (and not in a good way) at the louder sections of the performance.
  
  I don't claim to know what BIS does with these MN Orch recordings, but they aren't listenable on my system.
  - RE: DB - I do understand where you're coming from - ahendler 16:48:07 08/15/16 (0)
    A recording can never capture the dynamic range of a live concert
    Found the Vanska 6&7 on classics on line. Will listen after the olympics
    Alan
  - Interesting - Chris from Lafayette 16:36:49 08/15/16 (0)
    I have no problem at all listening to this new Sibelius album (haven't heard the Vanska Beethoven 9th) - as long as my wife and cat are not in the house! ;-)
- RE: DB - I do understand where you're coming from - Doktor Brahms 13:26:39 08/14/16 (0)
  Thanks for the link. I read the Hurwitz review and found it unsatisfying. He seems to be saying that if an interpretation strikes him as quirky and he doesn't like it, it's a bad performance. Am I being unfair? At any rate, I appreciate the fact that Vanska is not just doing a by-the-numbers cycle with his current orchestra. Good for him for trying to find some innovative twists to his approach to scores that he's done probably dozens of times. Mr. Hurwitz surely recognizes that what he hears as mannered intervention might strike other listeners as fresh and invigorating.
  
  And you're absolutely right about the dynamics: I see them as Vanska's "thing," rather than any unnatural intervention on the part of the BIS engineers.
RE: "For the life of me, I CANNOT understand a criticism like this!" - rjan 11:36:50 08/14/16 (0)
"And I'm not even sure I would accept the "genuine concert hall experience" claim, because I attend about 18-20 live orchestral concerts a year (on average) in various venues, and what I hear on some of Vanska's recordings is not what I hear in the concert hall"
Unfortunately this is not an argument, unless You have attended the recording session. Couldn't find anything wrong with dynamics.

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