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I'm going to order a pair of Erse inductors:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=266-906&scqty=2
and a pair of capacitors to replace the parts in my MMG crossover. I'm about to move and I don't have time to experiment with different caps so I'm hoping to just pick the best candidate and put the upgraded MMG's in storage until I get settled. I've been recommended the Daytons:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=027-246&scqty=2
and the Jantzens:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=027-934&scqty=2
Is there a clear winner between these? Is there another cap I should choose instead? I could spend up to $50 per cap I suppose. I'm looking for the most neutral sound.
Follow Ups:
Use the precisions from dayton and save your money. If they do turn out too harsh in your setop then you can bypass them with these:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=027-458
Or smaller values, you need less than 5% of the total capacitance to get most of the benefit. So it will not alter the XO substantially.
I found these to smooth out rough sounding metalized polyprop caps (like the precisions) and to sweeten the perceived FR, despite there being no difference in FR measurements. Still a head scratcher for me, but the audible effect is obvious. Nothing subtle at all.
you say
capacitors to replace the parts in my MMG crossover. I'm about to move and I don't have time to experiment with different caps so I'm hoping to just pick the best candidate and put the upgraded MMG's in storage until I get settled. I've been recommended the...X Y Z
I have found after 30years of doing MODs caps an tranfourmers an all the rest...that if you leave it the way it came from.. in this case Magnepan...if you dont like the sound get a diff speaker...like the true ribbions...better money spent..all you can do with the new caps is get a diff sound ...Who well say it better ...you...Maybe... get a real upgread... used maggys are out there... goodluck
I actually love the sound of my MMG's, but it makes sense that they would skimp on the quality of crossover components in order to hit the price point and that I could free up the sound quality "bottleneck" by using quality components.
Are you saying a capacitor upgrade is not worthwhile even if you love the sound of the speakers?
Are you saying a capacitor upgrade is not worthwhile even if you love the sound of the speakers?
NO...But how well you no if it better???...Oh it sounds better...Or someone here TOLD you it would.... than what...the other mmg you have..that not the way it works...well maybe if you run mono...Some here like to speak fo others thay sould give that a brake...I have 6pr of Magenpans here now...but likeing Maggys or not, is not what your doing here...you just wont to mod to get better sound... i say all you can do is get DIff. sound...better who knowes
Now if you had a nother pr of mmg Stock...an you moded one pr..you may see what you are doing....get a pr of Maggys that have the true ribbions
I have 3pr of MG 3as... Here dont have a $100. in all 3pr..Diff for diff sake means NOthing.....goodluck
You can't go too far wrong with the cap upgrade - it's cheap and reversible. Do not expect to hear huge differences; at least I did not, with my addmittedly 'brass' ears. It is 'different' but whether or not it's 'better' is up to you.
Suggestion for ANY mod you do:
- do one speaker at a time and compare, i.e. do the left one, then listen to the pair so you can tell the differences between left and right.
- Listen to mono recordings with the modded vs non-modded. This will highlight true differences between speakers instead of confusing the issue by feeding the speakers different (left and right) signals.
- Reverse the left and right speakers. This will change the tweeter in/out position as well, but these speakers are so room-dependant that unless you have a perfectly symmetrical setup, the sound will be colored by the room. So listen to a track in mono, listen for differences, write them down, then reverse Left and Right and see if the differences move with the speaker or stay with the room. Soundstage, etc will change but differences between channels due to the speaker will follow the speaker.
-For giggles, try reversing the left and right signals, leaving the speakers alone, while running mono. This will make sure 1) it's a true mono signal 2) the channels in your equipment is matched (source, amp, wires, etc). If, for instance, the gain of one channel is even .2 or .3db off, your ears will probably pick it up with critical listening.
I have found the above to be VERY revealing of many mods. The comparison is right there, right now, comparing a mod to a non-modded speaker. I tend to be skeptical of folks who take their speakers out of commission for days or weeks to do a mod, then listen to them and hear huge differences. I guess they have much better sonic memory than I. So far I've done (several) caps, inductors, Razor, (several) stands, and finally active line level x-over and bi-amp. It is fun!
Enjoy!!!
Very good advice there.
Some people here just aren't worthwhile to pay attention to....
Someone who really doesn't like Maggies telling you modding them isn't worthwhile? Do the math.
I would use the Erse inductor part number 266-904. There is a large enough difference in the resistance between the stock inductor and the Erse SuperQ that using the same value will shift the woofer's crossover point lower . Using a slightly lower mH inductor will keep this from happening.
Oh yeah, I prefer the Jantzen caps too.
Can anyone confirm that I should use a 2.0mH inductor instead of 2.2?
I used an on-line crossover calculator to figure this out. I used the measured resistance of the stock Maggie inductor and the MMG woofer panel and using a 2.2mH inductor value to come up with a crossover point. I then subtracted the resistance difference of the Erse SuperQ. To maintain the calculated crossover frequency, it took an inductor with a slightly lower value. I don't remember the exact value, but the 2.0mH Erse 16G Super Q was the closest to it.
I'm afraid that's incorrect information. Lowering DCR doesn't change the crossover frequency.
At the -3db frequency of the filter inductive reactance is already much larger than DCR.
Cheers,
Dave.
I actually found my stock MMG inductor and re-measured it. Davey's measurement is correct. While changing the DCR of a driver will change the crossover freq, the small change between a 2.0mH and a 2.2mH inductor won't.
So ggking7 order away that 2.2mH Erse SuperQ!
BTW, for the $2.56(pr) difference, I'd splurge on the Jantzen caps, but that's just me. Just be sure to report back on your findings ;^)
While we're on the subject, has anyone actually made a comparison of sonic differences (if any) between copper foil, round copper wire and laminated steel core inductors on Maggies?
Rickey, at the time I made comparisons of the Erse and a Jantzen ribbon I was already heading for bi-amping and had no need to invest in any premium-priced parts. In fact, the 2.2mH ribbon was not mine and was slated for installation in a friend's set of boxes. I only had one weekend to compare. Worse, the MMGs were not yet modded enough.Under those limited conditions, the 2.2mH Erse got the upper hand in dynamic impact at the bottom. Other things sounded equally good though slightly different due to the mismatch in DCR. My friend tried my Erse after he had bought the ribbon coil and lamented that he could have used them instead. (Yet, I suspect that he was trying to make me feel good and not like the cheap bastard that I can be).
I suppose that more of a difference could be perceived if I made the tests today. The MMGs frame is reinforced with the Stixbees and are Razored.
Regardless, the Erse are a terrific value in terms of performance. I still used them if I have to break the PLLXO bi-amp. In such cases, the loss in performance and clarity is not a punishing one (though it is clear if one has heard the bi-amp.)
Edits: 02/27/12
I was thinking (dangerous, that) that the copper foils might be of benefit on the hi-pass section of a mid-range but not really needed on a two-way Maggie.
Thanks again.
I tried both the Precision and regular Dayton capacitors this winter.
Personally my MMG's were a bit mis-matched from the factory, one speaker was noticabley brighter than the other. The Precision matched the tweeters. They also seemed to make the tweetwer more defined, not a huge difference but noticeable, more clarified. I listen to a lot of jazz, so cymbals, bells, etc were easier to 'see'.
There are a few people saying the Precision caps are 'harsh', so I tried the regular ones as well. They sounded a bit 'smoother' but to my ear, less precise. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=027-430
Since then I've gone to line-level active XO and biamp. In my humble opinion, the Precision caps are more accurate. I suspect they sound 'harsh' to some folks because some recordings are harsh, while the less accurate caps smooth/smear the harshness.
Again, just my opinion. The active x-over and bi-amp is a big step up from the upgraded x-over for sure, but a bigger time and money commitment.
At the time I fooled around with them, the Precision Daytons were a disappointment in timbral issues, more than anything else that I can remember. However, they were precise in response and, I agree, "harsh" they were not.
The most bothersome issue to me was that they affected the sound of pianos, more so the Steinways.
Surprisingly, this was more offending in the least expected of positions; used as the cap for the 2nd order slope (in original MMG xover design). Lots of people maintain that a cap in that xover position has no impact on sound as long as it has the proper value. It took me quite a while to begin suspecting that it was the real cause.
I was on my way to bi-amping anyway so, no loss, but I was still curious. Later, we put these in a friend's set of DIY speakers (cone). We both perceived the same thing and took them out.
Of the Parts Express caps for conventional xovers, the Jantzen CrossCap turned out to be really good all-around performers. (I still use them when I need to revert to a normal xover for tests.)
Then again, I was NOT looking to buy expensive great caps. That's part of the beauty with a PLLXO on MMGs...super cheap and great. With the money for some of these exotic caps one can get a 2nd power amp and still save!
Acroy and a few of us cats around here know this. However, we also know that bi-amping at line-level (be it PLLXO or active) is not for everyone. Among other things, this will expose the better "goods" as well as the worst "bads" in recordings. There are people for whom "Ignorance is bliss" is a most valid proposition.
Choose your caps carefully. May I suggest Obbligato Oil caps.
Edits: 02/24/12
Thanks, but it doesn't look like there are 12uF Obbligato caps?
On the violin: "Heaven reward the man who first hit on the idea of sawing the innards of a cat with the tail of horse."
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