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I have had my 1.7s now for about 3/4 of a year and trust me, they are broke in and I am unbelievably impressed with them and uber-happy. I am wondering if other people who have heard or own these are familiar with a edge or stridant harshness in the high frequencies however. It is not continuous or evident on all recordings. The effect seems to come on power spikes even with lower volumes. CDs seem to do it more than vinyl. Don't get the wrong impression, I like everyone here, hear and question every little twinge that doesn't sound right.
I run an older but still enjoyable set of McIntosh separates, a MC7270 amp an C37 preamp. I used to drive Thiel CS3s with these pieces and never heard this, so I am discounting the electronics. The amp never clips and I am seriously not taxing its output if the meters are accurate, and I trust they are.
I've been racking my brain trying to guess why I'm getting this. Could it be from:
1. Cheap speaker cables? I am running just simple stranded 12 guage OFC bulk cable. I am waiting on some Anticables that I just ordered.
2. Is my Mac gear getting worn out?
3. Maybe my interconnect. I am using a Straight Wire Rhapsody S between the amp and preamp.
4. Just what the 1.7s do. Can't be fixed.
I appreciate some opinions or things to try.
Scott
Follow Ups:
Hi,
This is my first post on this site (great site by the way, lots of useful info).
I have 1.7s for a few weeks now (I also had 1.6 and SMGs before); they are not fully burned yet I think so what I will say may not be relevant.
I do have some of that "harschness" (which I did not have with my 1.6). It may be due to the tweeter which I think is a great improvement over the 1.6's but may call for something a bit smoother in terms of electronics.
That "harshness" is sometime present when I use my passive preamp. When I use my active tube pre, it totally disappears so ...
BTW, I use Nordost Red Dawn ICs (considered by many as "bright"). I don't but I do believe they let "everything" go through so I think that I have to be careful with what I feed the MG's with.
Try Rear Wave Attenuators, the attenuating resistor, and simply time (day night cycles) before changing electronics.
I agree the attenuator may do the job but I already own the two preamps : one is a passive (TVC) and the other (active) is a tube unit (a Conrad Johnson). While I prefer the passive, my wife prefers by far the "Lushness" of the CJ. Result is : if I use the passive, I have to reduce the volume to a "non acceptable" volume level. She will "tolerate" at least a 7 dB higher volume level with the CJ (I measured it with a SPL).
Conclusion : When I am alone, I put on the passive and when she is at home, we put the CJ "online". Must say I don't mind since I enjoy the CJ me too. It is different. The CJ is relaxing while the passive makes you feel like to "analyse". Both nice, but quite different.
What CJ preamp model do you use and what amp are you running? I have SS McIntosh separates and have toyed with the idea of using a tube preamp to sweeten the sound.
My Preamp is a PV15 (supposed to be pretty "neutral" compared to other CJ's models). The amp is a SS MF2250 - warm mids - plenty of power for my needs but again, more "neutral" than its "tube's brothers".
With a MC amp, I guess I would not look for a CJ pre. Like CJs, MCs have a "distinctive" sound signature (which is different than CJ's). I would try to stay in the same "brand" or maybe look for something a bit more "flavorless" (AR maybe ?).
Electronics are only a part of the whole thing. A too lively room may "ruin" your whole system. Jitter or an impedance mismatch could also do that (have you checked that - your impedance match ?). I myself was surprised to see the specs of my CJ preamp. It has a very low impedance sensitivity at the input compared to other preamps. My DAC has a very high impedance at the output. Lucky me, I already had a buffer at the DAC's output (I guess most users of passive preamps have or should have one of those buffers somewhere on hands). Without it (the buffer), I would probably have put for sale the PV15 the minute after I plugged it.
There may be other solutions more effective (and cheaper) than changing preamps. But again, it could be that (the preamp). One thing I have a hard time to believe (sorry guys, I read that kind of comments here and there and I disagree) is that a "good quality" cable would be responsible for harshness. If another cable "reduces that harshness", it is doing some roll-off (so it does not let the entire signal go through) and I don't accept that as a proper solution. Adding "warmth" and "flavor" is one thing; deliberately removing part of the signal is another (not acceptable to me). We spend too much money trying to "get the whole real thing" to finish the job by cutting some of the signal at the end (I would feel like throwing the towell when just about to make it).
One of the reason I like my 1.7 better than the 1.6 is because I believe they are "better" at handling high frequencies. I love that new tweeter and no way that I personnally would agree with a "roll-off" solution.
I am with you 100% with respect to not doing anything that would roll-off any of the high frequencies in order to make the sound more enjoyable. The bite in the HF that I am trying to solve is really minor, but still something I want to tame. I hope to take delivery on some Mouser chokes this week that many people (thank you) on this thread have suggested.
As a further experiment while I am waiting, I took the supplied attenutors that I tried early on and didn't like and gave them another listen. I may have tried them way too early before everything broke in. Listening with them on this weekend I found that they really did help manage the HF harshness. I was also really trying to see if they cut or rolled off anything, because that as you said is an anti-improvement regardless of what it may cure. I can't say that I noticed any drop in HF. It just seemed to take the edge off slightly.
For those who have experimented with the attenators and the chokes I would like to hear if you stayed with one solution or the other, or if you used both. I will certainly try my own experiments as well.
May I ask which chokes did you buy Bourne> ? What grade? thanks
J.W. Miller/Bourns (sold by Mouser):
5502-RC Desc.: Shielded RF Chokes 10uH 10% (9Amp)
5522-RC Desc.: Shielded RF Chokes 10uH 10% (20Amp) - Al Sekela's original rec.Have fun!
Edits: 02/18/12
Well, the Mouser chokes finally arrived and I put those in place of the attenuators. Thanks to all that suggested these. I'm no electrical engineer and I certainly wouldn't have even known about these without this forum. Nice improvement.
I tried both. I thought the 5522 had more impact than the 5502 and what Magnepan provided. It was particularly noticeable with live Jeff Beck (Live at Ronnie Scotts) and Larry Carlton (Last Night).
Flip 'em around and listen to the 'wrong' side of the panel. Swap the speakers L/R as you do so and the tweeters will stay 'inside' which I would try first in your smallish room....to maintain the most distance from the HF part of the panel to the side wall.
If you try this, be ready to adjust toe to the new dispersion pattern of the speaker....you'll want them toed 'out' more than right now.....
Too much is never enough
Isn't playing around with setup part of the fun? I had actually read a number of posts about setting up the 1.7s before I got mine last year. I was already primed to try a number of things. As some have suggested, I now have them tweeters facing in. That gives me better center focused soundstage. With the tweeters out my small room was not allowing the soundstage to spread enough I imagine. All I know is I like the effect better with a more centered image. I also have them tilted back some. I think that has helped some due to the small room I'm in. Tilting them helped the front-back imaging and raised the soundstage some. I am hoping to be able to put them in a much larger room someday and see how they do when they are able to command more air space.
The speakers were more than fully broken in (8 months) when I changed over to the Anti-cables. I have no doubt they are a providing a large improvement.
Yes, by all and any means, adjust till you bust.
And for those who think the HF is 'too bright', flip 'em around. Heck, flip 'em around anyway. I found it gave a wider soundstage while reducing HF glare. I was able to toe them out more which is what gave the above 2 benefits. I currently toe in about 11 degrees....MEASURE and do the math. I use the style edge on either side to the front wall. In my case I'm at 30 1/2" inside and 34" outside measure.
Cables? I'd use good stuff and put off changes till last...but I'm a cheapskate.
Too much is never enough
Thanks to everyone who offered an opinion. I have tried all of the placement suggestions awhile back and have had the quilt on the wall for some time. My post was after tring some of these things. I tried the atenuators supplied by Magnepan and didn't like the drop in high end resolution. I thought using those was akin to simply adjusting the treble. I took them off pretty quickly.
I recieved the anticables yesterday and was naturally pretty eager to try them. Well, shut the front door! I may have just solved my problem. As with any new cable/wire, the first 5 minutes were pretty unimpressive, but by the 1 hour mark I knew these were vastly better than my el cheapos, even though these are a huge bargan as well.
My local dealer had allowed me to try some Audio Quest and Nordost models in the $500-$1000 range. Maybe I didn't give them enough time on my system to give them a fair audition or maybe I really didn't want to like them because I wasn't in the mood to drop many hundreds of dollars, but they didn't do anything for me. The anticables started working well after just a few minutes.
I haven't had but a couple of hours with these and they are clearly not reaching their full potential, and that belief excites me. I really haven't heard the hard bite in the upper frequencies that I was trying to explain. I'm not saying it has gone completely away but WOW, I haven't been this impressed with a simple system change since I employed a power conditioner for the first time.
I am going to give these the full burn in time and if they get even a little better I will be ordering the interconnects as well. My current interconnect is a Straight Wire Rhapsody S. If the interconnect doesn't seem to be an upgrade as well, I'll just return it. Paul Speltz has a fair return policy.
For those interested in the anticables I can already say that the upper frequencies are more exposed while seemingly removing the occasional bite that I was getting. I was using Axiom stranded 12 gauge OFC bulk cable. It was very nice and super flexible, but the sound I now know was average at best. I'm now hearing the transient ring in cymbols and other percussion instuments. On the bass side, I'm getting less boom and clearly tighter notes. The bass note pitch on the lowest that the Maggies can muster up is also now more identifiable. I don't think I'm hearing better or wider soundstage, but the individual instuments are better placed with more air around single players.
I know I'm sounding like product hype and I hate that, but I start out believing new stuff won't make any differnence rather than setting my mind to believe because I've spent money it should. I have to proven wrong so to speak. Fun, a new toy that does seem to help my problem, AND it has improved the sound. Double win. BTW, I paid for 24 feet of Paul's bulk wire and he sent me 30. I am using bare leads straight into the Maggies and into my McIntosh barrier strip. I have no need for the convenience of connectors and I've never heard anyone say that a connector improves the sound. Buying the anticable bulk saves the cost of the connectors and Paul's assembly time. The only tedious part is carefully removing the very thin dialectric to expose the leads. Judy, Paul's wife advised using a Dremmel stone as one way to do that.
I will look into the chokes that were offered up as well. Thanks.
Lots of advice here. Here is mine FIX THE ROOM. That should go a long way towards improving your sound. Take plenty of pictures of the entire room and send them to GIK or some other "room" folks and listen to their advice and you probably won't spend as much as some of these cables or other esoteric fixes.
I noticed the same thing when I switched from MIT cables to the Anti Cables. It did take over 150 hours of burn time. But, what seemed bright at first, became more and more detailed. I also had that harshness on the transients playing through my 1.6's. Now the mids / highs are still there, without the harshness...even on (egads)...CD's ! (I'm a lifelong vinyl guy, but am actually enjoying the heck out of an $ 80 player now that I got anti-cables. My vinyl setup is a full-blown Linn Sondeck moving coil).
"I see sound waves"
"I recieved the anticables yesterday and was naturally pretty eager to try them. Well, shut the front door! I may have just solved my problem. As with any new cable/wire, the first 5 minutes were pretty unimpressive, but by the 1 hour mark I knew these were vastly better than my el cheapos, even though these are a huge bargan as well."
Have you tried putting the el-cheapos back on and testing if the sound quality goes down?
Sometimes it's just a matter of time, break-in time. As Wendell said, it isn't just how long it is played, but how many days (and temperature cycles) it has felt.
I heard similar things with breaking in my 1.6 and 3.6's, and I didn't change cables. The lows come in, which you hear, but less expected, some psychoacoustic effect makes the highs sound better too.
the book cases in the corner would be something I would avoid. The glass provides a fast reflection for sounds coming from the lower part of the speaker. Above that you have lots of corner reflections for each speaker and there is a delay from the sounds produced by the lower half of the speakers. Also, I would disagree with that quilt covering that much wall. I've always liked a more uniform surface area for the rear wall reflections, usually without drastic changes for the rear wall reflection distances. Don't be afraid of the rear wall reflection. It's part of what causes the Maggie magic. I do agree with the Anti-cables. I also have those with my 3.6s.
Alan, I had that quilt on and off the wall many times. I also believed logically that it was too much but it helped deaden the room. Thinking back on it, my Maggies weren't fully broken in yet. I put the room together all at once. Also, now that the Anticables have tamed and helped my higher frequencies this might be a good time to try a few changes.
As to the cabinets, the one on the left has no glass. It is all wood. The one on the right has glass doors, but for convenience I leave them fully swung open all the time. The one is full of records and I'm constantly changing so opening and closing the doors is time not needed. I really don't have anywhere else in the room to put them. The room is kind of small (11 x13).
Welcome to the wonderful world of Maggies. Enjoy
Alan
I use the stock resistors as well as Rear Wave Attenuators (RWA).
I have the RWA directly behind the first 3 wires (two of which are the "super tweeter"). It's been perfect ever since.
Another thing to mention. I've had trouble determining what sounds "real" since getting Magnepans. I had never really sat down to listen to music more than a few times a year. My only frame of reference is piano (which my wifes plays now and then), and acoustic guitar (which I played for 20 years). When I put in piano or guitar music, and they sound perfect, to me the setup is correct. Even if certain pieces of music don't sound "right" to my ear, it doesn't mean I'm not hearing what was intended.
I've also learned not to adjust the setup based on the exact same recordings every time. I've worked with the setup on just one or two songs in the past. Big mistake. Then they sounded "perfect" and many other tunes sounded "off".
It wasn't until I did a crossover upgrade on my 1.6 that music, which I thought was poorly recorded, suddenly came to life. What I thought was harshness in my speakers disappeared. No need for chokes or resistors in the tweeter attenuator.
Edits: 06/18/11 06/18/11
I agree with you that the need for an attenuator fades away with a good upgrade of the crossover, but if you haven't tried the choke then you don't know what you are missing. I have Alpha core inductors, Obligatto caps and Duelund resistors in my mid-treble xo's for the IIIa and the $5 choke from Mouser was an eye opener. It not only gets rid of harshness but it improves resolution with resulting improvement in imaging and soundstage. Try it, you'll like it.
My parents thought I was precocious, but it turned out I was merely prematurely average.
Same here. The crossover upgrade was great and I had no brightness. The choke really opened my eyes to what RF did. Once you hear it, you wont do a crossover upgrade without throwing in a choke for each driver.
Even fancy crossover upgrades can benefit from chokes. Sure it is gear dependent often but most report improvements, and if my Pass labs amp benefited I bet most amps will too.
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
One more thing, the MC7270 Amp you can turn off the POWER GARD in the back of The amp?
You may be runing out of POWER,MCINTOSH HAVE NO HEAD ROOM.Like Tube Amps.I have heard the power gard, i Sold MC in the 90s What tap are you on I would say the 8ohm is the one for the most power. If there pushed or in this case 1ohm Dip,you can hear The Amp Clip.
With a 4 ohm speaker like the 1.7 the 4 ohm tap will give maximum power
Alan
To Me Magnepan are a lot of FUn,Like The quad57 Thay Can only give about 80% of the Audio, an that with subs
I got the same Thing on my 1.7 from Day one,I have had the Mcintosh Mc 7270 One of the Best Mc i have ever had an it can be sweet tube like,An i have a pr of Thiels an thay can get HOT on top.
I drove My 1.7 with Tubes,krell,Mcintosh,Sunfire, 1.7 I am Glad there gone!
I lost over $300,but that ok,If you dont go you dont NO,
Most here just love to talk.Thay dont even have to see the speakers an thay well tell you how to fix goodluck
how far from the front wall are your 1.7's? a good rule of thumb is to keep early reflections (0-15ms) under 20% level. that would mean you need either about 8 feet (16ft/1130fps = 14ms) or some serious absorption. if the music in question has longer holds on notes in the midrange it will act more like a test tone and will need the entire 15ms for the reflected sound to become unrelated (frequency and amplitude) to the direct sound. on a test tone that does not change, distance as time has less effect than absorption does because the reflected sound is near identical (frequency and amplitude) regardless of time to the direct sound and will comb filter it (make the highs sound nasty).
Edits: 06/17/11 06/17/11 06/17/11
You can have speakers that display all that is there. Or ones that hide crap. you choose.
I use a Tube buffer for my digital.
Though with a lot of power supply tweaking, i have finally been able to run my Sony SCD777ES straight from the Bryston BP-26 preamp
I own Magnepan 3.6s
Scott, with the input given so far, there's already a good set of ideas of where to look. There's one that I'd like to repeat because, regardless of the ultimate remedy in your case, this one is still a good add on.
Like Neo and others said, Al Sekela's chokes: http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/Al_Sekela.html
I discovered Al's chokes around the time I began to feed my MMGs tweeters via line-level bi-amping. With the additional purity in top end sound, along came more evidence of the nasties that these chokes can fight, which they did. The chokes fixed the issue that was ruining the extended top end of many good SACDs and CD.
They actually did more good than just the curing of this problem, but that's another story.
If you send for them (they are real cheap) buy 4 instead of 2. (I don't know if the extra pair can be used with 1.7s the way I've used them. However, they may still be useful in fine tuning.) The thicker 5522 or the thinner 5502, both work (I own sets of both). I ended up using 4 of the 5522 -- 2 for the tweeters and 2 for the mid/bass panels -- because I bi-amp. The basic RFI problem can be treated with just the ones for the tweeter.
On the 1.7 do you put these chokes where the stock attenuators can be used?
Yes. Where the attenuator goes.* In high RFI environments like mine, the harshness is reduced, the upper harmonics also sound sweeter and more "correct". If you were to measure/sweep the actual output of the tweeter with the choke on, you would be surprised that it actually is slightly reduced at the very top. The audible perception is, however, counterintuitive to this. Harshness is reduced, not volume.[Some people have reported additional benefits by adding a parallel resistor (and I think it was also mentioned in this thread early on).]
*Perhaps because of bi-amping (though I also found it true when in "conventional xover mode" to a large extent) I wound up using an extra choke for each mid/bass panel (or in the case of conventional, at the speaker input.) Hard to tell with the 1.7s but if you do try the extra ones, keep the following in mind:
- The 2nd choke will work better in one terminal than the other.
- If it is working, the 2nd choke will help with improved imaging.
- YMMV but it is a simple matter of switching terminals and listening. Pay attention to the imaging changes as you do. Tone/timbre should also be slightly affected for the better.
- Remember, these are always used in series, not in parallel (don't short your amp!) This will make it tricky to add at the end of a banana plug termination...improvise (RatShack items can help).
- Instructions for bi-ampers are slightly different depending on line vs speaker level xover...call : - )) .
Edits: 06/18/11 06/18/11
Those chokes were out of stock when I ordered. See here for the ones I ordered instead:
http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=mug&n=174158
These should do fine. Perhaps Mart can find a way to append your input to Al's. This way others can find it easily.BTW, I had the same problem when looking for the original ones a few years ago. While I waited for the Mouser backorder to be filled, I tried other types of chokes (same value). None worked. They were of the toroidal type (donut-shape). I never saw the one you found!
Edits: 06/18/11
Ordered 5202's yesterday from Mosner. They were in stock
Alan
This sounds like the classic mismatch with the amplifier thing. It crops up from time to time for random users. It is very frequency specific and when there is enough energy on that tone you get an electrical and/or acoustic resonance that isn't getting dampened. Look for it at the crossover frequecies. You can use a test tone disc or a frequency generator to find it.
I wished there was an easier way to fix it but the only solutions I know is to find an amp that is a better match for your 1.7's. Apart from that you have rebuilding the crossover or trying an active crossover. Or perhaps a notch filter may tame that. It can be beaten and you do not have to live with it. I was hoping that the X.7's would be immune from this with the low order crossovers. That is exactly what got me into learning how to modify my speakers and electronics to begin with.
There is a very thin possibility that the resistance of the speaker cables is a little too high and you are losing just enough damping there. The higher the resistance the more damping falls off. This is a potential penalty for using cables that are either too long or too thin.
In search of musical bliss...
I'm not familiar with your listening room but I would try putting a dampening material directly behind your main listening position. Hang a heavy comforter and see if that fixes the problem. It could be an early reflection from a hard surface behind you, especially if you are relatively close to the rear wall while listening. Obviously a more permanent solution could be found if this ends up as the issue.
Could you name a few pieces of music that you find this occuring on?
Exactly what do you mean by "power spikes"?
If mine are doing it I've never noticed it.
Speaker wire is Kimber 8TC and my interconnects are silver made by Ben from the Polk Forum. I'm very happy with both products.
Number one tweak for any Maggie but especially those with a true ribbbon tweeter. Insert a 10 uH choke in series with the tweeter. Search the archives for more info.
My parents thought I was precocious, but it turned out I was merely prematurely average.
5. What I did with same issue in the 1.6. Use a larger resistor value in the tweeter attenuator, and put it in series with one of dear late Al's chokes.
6. Use Maggie Rear Wave Attenuators (found on ebay---I would be selling mine as well because I now have 3.6's)
The 1.7 is a 2.5 way (bass + treble+supertweeter), I don't know if changing the tweet attenuator will affect the treble+supertweet, but I suspect it will and this is probably what you want.
Flip 'em around and listen to the 'wrong' side. You may want to swap 'em L/R until you get the image / phase right, too.
THAN try the old 'fake ficus' trick and stick some diffusion BEHIND them........
Too much is never enough
What you are describing is less likely if the room is treated for proper acoustics.
I have had the same experience over the same amount of time. My equipment is older than yours,but the harshness comes exactly as you described only on certain cd's and certain labels. I find the harshness in (upper middle range) has moderated considerably, however. You have to use some acoustical imagination and ingenuity in arranging furniture and objects. I moved or got rid of as much metal and glass(print frames) as I could while keeping my environment comfortable. I went back to listen, to a dealer who uses much more expensive equipment than my own, with same familiar cd's . I heard nearly the same things on those cd's. The room environment and the position of the speakers is at least as important as the equipment- a well know mantra of the maggies. I believe the majority of classical cd's that I own are floored. Less so with the identical recordings on vinyl. I am still delightfully happy but have not given up on working on the acoustical surroundings. Peter Gunn think they are inherent in the design Jonathan Valin of Absolute Sound does not. So there you go . (But will buy a new amp and cd player for the fun of it.)
Cables could do it. Also I have 3.6r's and find that if I point them straight at me they can get a little bright but fired straight ahead there is no problem. Also whether you have the tweeter in or out may contribute to your problem
Alan
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