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Months ago, when Dawnrazor first reported on the, now called, Half-Razored (aka HR) and Full-Razored (aka FR) tweaks for Maggies, I was not interested. I do value his advice very much. Not this time, I felt. No instance where I had ever put synthetic rubber in significant contact with my MMGs had been good. Yet, in recent weeks, inmates are reporting good results with D's latest contraption. So, I figured I should, at least, try the HR stage on my P-framed MMGs.
With the Memorial Day weekend coming up, I also thought I had the time. So, I ordered the Cascade material mentioned by Dawnrazor (link). Then, I spent the rest of the week in preparation for a set of tests. I thought that a holiday weekend would be enough to do the job. As it turned out, there were complications.
The first was that I added a test set for Plain/MDF (aka Plain) configuration. I had originally planned a comparison of P-frames (alone) to HR (alone) and to a combination of both. However, I was being selfish by leaving out a key comparison useful to many people: Plain vs HR. So, I added it. That was a good thing to do. The better attributes of HR vs Plain were clear from day one. They won my respect as an Outstanding Bang for the Buck & Effort tweak.
Second, surprisingly, when I added HR to the P-frames, one key performance benefit of P-frames, bass extension, was negatively affected, at first. Later, it came back, and better. Therefore, the delay itself was also a good thing. I should have thought so earlier; there is a break-in period involved with the application of this CLD material (duh!).
My (MMGs + Cascade material) as placed the first time, racked in over 157 hours. It was mostly music (me) plus TV programming (my wife) and movies (the subwoofer was totally taken off-line a week previous to this test). This includes 23 hours on a continuous loop of pink/white noise and music at around 80db while we had to leave on an emergency trip. Some hours were with the P-frames(PF+HR) on , others just HR on Plain. Not all were "listening time". Somewhere just past around 120 hours of playback, I did not detect any more changes.
Then, on Sunday, June 13, I yanked the original Cascade off. I needed to go back to "Plain" and make sure I was not "hearing things" or being unfair to stock MMGs (ask in discussion). I was not. Later in the day, when I put new Cascade back on, I got the same impressions that I had the first time around, minus the surprise.
Where the rubber meets the roa...ehrr...MMGs:
(Evaluation Summary of this Razoring stage. At the end, I have a link to more information than you may care for here)
- The Half-Razoring stage (HR) brings impressive things to the plate when added to Plain MDF MMGs. Had the HR tweak "hurt" anything vs Plain, I would have had no qualms with stopping right there. Bummer!!! Believe me, I was expecting damage (just being cheeky). However, it never did this. As far as dynamic impact, imaging, tonal/timbre and texture elements, this material damaged nothing that I could hear in relation to Plain MDF MMGs. It either improved these things or left them alone. The bulk of the improvements were in the midrange area. This included better textures, more detail, somewhat better imaging and, after about 100 hours, improved bass extension and slightly smoother extreme highs. A must "try", I'd say to owners of these stock MMGs.
- HR also provided solid enhancements when added to my P-frames (PF+HR). Initially, there were negative effects on sound. These went away after about 100 hours. After break-in, PF+HR either improved or left things the same, along the lines of what HR did to Plain from the get go. Again, the midrange section was main recepient of the benefits. However, in doing so, it appeared that HR also provided a better match for what happened up and down the audio range. The improvements were relatively less dramatic than with HR added to Plain. Still, PF+HR provided sound that was far better than what HR can achieve with Plain MMGs. Even if the P-Frames (alone) already did this, HR brought further refinements. This may be a very promising tweak for MMGs that have stand-bracing.
- HR alone does not equal P-frames and, thus, probably much less, the real frames. This was not surprising. HR grabs the inner frame only. Unless dealt with, the outer frame will simply keep doing its typical song & dance. It will keep on coloring and muddling many things (albeit less so with HR). P-frames and stand-bracing grab the MDF itself, not the inner frame. Frames, OTH, integrate the whole nine-yards. They replace the MDF and grab/couple the inner Mylar frame. The thought did cross my mind that the combo of HR + P-Frames (or HR + stand-bracing) could turn out to be a rough equivalent to framing. Pure speculation, at this point. In any event, even if I had true Frames, I'd give this thing a spin.
- I would have to try Full-Razoring (FR) later, which could impact things much more substantially. For the reasons above, however, I do not expect that even FR (alone) will be a "frames substitute" by itself. OTH, I am being proven wrong at every turn by this new incubus of D... So, who knows, it could be that we find room for a RazorMax adaptation, one that really gets us there. (It could save my marriage, because "The Boss" does not want the frames).
- If you don't like it, you can remove it. However, it is not as easy as I thought, and for good cause. This thing really grabs. After 2 weeks, I took it off just to make sure that I was being fair to "Plain" MMGs. My fingers had a hard time doing it. Like Dawnrazor recommends, just remember to avoid using the material on the bottom horizontal length of the Mylar frame, if you try it. Another precaution is to stay on that inner frame, do not let stick to the Mylar itself.
- HR is back on and stays on my P-Framed MMGs for my enjoyment while I decide on the next step...or my wife throws me out.
I can't believe how much time and attention I have devoted to this set of tests. I was driven by my finding that here, we truly have a very promising tweak for Maggies. This is something to be shared. This is not an ambiguous thing. It is real and I'd really want to make sure that other people don't make the mistake that I almost made. Dawnrazor has made one hell of a solid contribution. Try it!
Lastly, and conversely, Dawnrazor has yet to find out how great his baby, even at this stage, can sound as part of a framed or braced system. As he gets there, there may be more great ideas coming from him. Eccentric? Like always. Worth trying? Gee, I think we'll never stop being skeptics...we love to be, it seems!
For my expanded impressions & opinions (MAJOR RANT) see this. For mention of my ClunkerWare as used for the evaluation, please see my this or ask for more details)
Follow Ups:
nt
Hi guys. Looking at the link for the P-frames reminded me of the stands I made for my MG2.5R's. The wood I used was some 1"X2" Oak from HD. Since I still plan to make wood frames, I wasn't worried about any harm to the MDF panels. That's why the panels are fastened to the stands with screws. If you really wanted to, you could still use clamps and get the same effect.
What the pic doesn't show is that once the stands are attached to the speaker panel, the whole thing is then attached to a wood base. I think this setup gives you a couple of things. Wood added to the MDF panel to help soak up vibes and take the flex out of the MDF. Struts and a firm base to help couple the speakers to the floor.
Ha ha, Rickey, and looking at yours reminds me that the next step for me might, in fact, use the very same HD oak strips. I had been contamplating fixing them to the MDF, where the PFs run down the sides. Then, I would just cover them with the same old grill cloth, which still stretches well...no more uglies.
I kept postponing it because real framing still seemed to be the only way to go if the inner Mylar frame was to be dealt with.
After the HR results -- and probably more so, FR -- things have changed. That oak strip is thinner but probably stronger than what I am now using for P-Frames. So, it should be able to rein in the MDF just a well. Then, HR or FR would complete the picture. Presto!
Come to think of it, maybe I'll try this and THEN add FR. If the strips do the same job with HR, as PF+HR...Wow!
Then I could start saving for ribbon-tweetered Maggies.
Hey Rickey,
I think you are right about the mdf flex. I just got finished mounting the stock panels into my new speaker stand and I was amazed at how much the mdf flexed and I swear one of the panels was warped a tad.
They arent moving now :)
Didnt you use a cutting board for the base?
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
Hey Dr. I used a cutting board for my MMG's. A cutting board the size needed for my 2.5's is a bit more EXPENSIVE. I'm thinking I could make something myself and save a few coins. Right now they're just anchored to a wood panel.
If you think a 48" MMG panel has flex, a 72" MG-2.5 will shock you.
Hey you might want to try the link below. These guys are pretty cheap for unfinished cutting boards.
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
Thanks for the link. Those are good prices.
Hey Jben,
I cant believe you spent so much time on this and are still only half way there!!
Thanks for giving the HR a try. It really works! Had I to do this over, I would have started with cascading the pole pieces and not the frames. They both need to be done, but the HR is good, and the FR is great. In my "write up" I should have put that first and not last. Getting the vibes BEFORE they start and make it to the frame is much better.
Your conclusions line up with the others who have tried it, and my own as well. I can see where a wood frame and the cascade would compliment each other nicely and probably is the ultimate in terms of vibration control, though doing the pole pieces may take the frame out of the equation enough that the results are maybe not worth the effort. This needs some testing.
Lastly, and conversely, Dawnrazor has yet to find out how great his baby, even at this stage, can sound as part of a framed or braced system. As he gets there, there may be more great ideas coming from him. Eccentric? Like always. Worth trying?
That day is close at hand. I finished mounting my stock frames in my speaker stands today. They are definitely braced way better than they ever were.
And yes, I do have at least one more tweak up my sleeve. I have to try it but if it works as I think, it could be a good improvement. Nothing to do with vibration....
Thanks again for your effort, and do let us know when you do the full monty!
That was an interesting finding on the break in of the cascade. While I never heard such a thing, it is not far fetched. One I am sure I did the application on a friday and it was almost a week until i could play the system again. On wed I usually put burn in tones on at super low volumes in preparation for listening on thursday and friday. Perhaps just being applied and out of the package and time has the same effect. Said another way, perhaps the system being on or not has little to do with it (though I can see where having it on would be a benefit). Also I was using subs and perhaps it wasnt too audible with the subs on.
Anyhow I am glad you are digging it.
PS...80db for 23 hours and your neighbors still talk to you??
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
Regrets? Yeah, right! Look, my own quest for cleaning up the top end of my MMGs first, made me leave the bracing/framing for last also. Only if I could have their tweeters singing sweet enough would I keep them. Seems to me like that's what you were aiming for, as well. In the process you have helped me and you are helping others with the exploration. And it's fun!!!
Anyway, the break-in period could have gone unnoticed had it not been such an uncommonly tight (and long) test for me. For example, not using the subwoofer, not even for movies since the previous week -- and for two weeks during the [unplanned] extended test -- made it more clear. When HR, initially, robbed the P-frames of their extended bass, I was prepared to accept it. The rest of the cumulative improvements with PF+HR were sooo well worth it!
Ironically, it was the bass in PF+HR that first alerted me to the break-in process. That night, I was having the place all to myself. I love my long-term test music selection (G2), and that's all I was having.
The first one on, Joss Stone's "I Believe It To My Soul", opens with a full ensemble and strong bass introduction. All very enjoyable with P-Frames (alone), in the past. From earlier in the testing process, I already expected that with PF+HR, the bass would be lost or weakened in this piece. Yet, I also knew that EVERYTHING else would be, at the very least, slightly better or the same. Overall, more engaging.
So, it started with the full ensemble intro. What!? My jaw dropped. Some of the strong bass was back! Then Joss' voice opened up. Full, luscious, and impossibly Soulish, she started singing it...and so did I, "I believe...."
The other bass-rich pieces in G2 were checked next. It was there, as well. It also started showing up in frequency sweeps. Slowly but surely, it came back.
Yes, a subwoofer would have hidden this evolution. So would a change, like going to Full-Razoring soon after HR. With me being such a darn sloth, it was easier to encounter it.
BTW, the closest neighbor was on vacation for over two weeks. That helped with late night listening also.
Hey Jben,
Thanks again for the test.
I merely met regets for ME in that I lead with the half razor...should have started with the full.
Everyone is trying the half and I appreciate it and it is an improvement, but nothing like the full thing.
I know you will get there eventually and it will be worth the wait.
Lets see if anyone else has your break in experience. I have to say that is very unexpected though plausible...
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
ooops! I guess I read too fast.
On the subject of the break-in, I am having to wait patiently for it to happen again. Since June 13, when I took the Cascade off, tested, and then added it new again, I have barely listened to music. With my daughter, who lives in France and her friends visiting with us for a few weeks, I lost control of the room. At least they are watching TV with the MMGs on.
But it will take its time. This afternoon they all left me alone for an hour. I rushed to listen to some music. The MMGs are now FP+HR. Sure enough, the same pre-break sound (which ain't bad at all, of course) but now I know that it will get even better in a couple of weeks.
It may be that instead of doing Full-Razoring next, I replace the P-Frames with oak strips. The hope is that, along with HR, this will sound as good as PF+HR. Then, I would go to FR over these. It is just a thought, at this point.
The downside is that I would miss hearing the Full-Razoring on Plain MMGs, which I've been looking forward to lately. OTH, I fear that I'll spend the year doing more testing than doing relaxed listening and enjoyment...
Yeah Jben,
I appreciate your madness, but man I wish you would just enjoy the music once an a while.
Often i leap in and while I understand testing (i used to listen extensively when I was making cables) some times you just have to do it and listen.
But you my friend have your own path and I can understand that.
FWIW, removing the strips on the pole pieces is MUCH easier than from the frames as the strip and adhesive is much much smaller....
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
No, my name is not John Murdock (obscure film reference). I did, however, come to a realization several days ago: I've been chasing a phantom. How many tweeter technologies can you name? I'm sure you couldn't name as many woofer technologies (I'm not including the various implementations in that list, but only truly unique driver types). Why?
It all crystalized when I sat down in front of the 3.6s and heard them sing. Someone in this forum bent my mind against the idea of the ribbons. I took the red pill and discovered a game changer. The QR is a great design, but no tweak on earth can make it behave like a ribbon.
I think the biggest shocker was a CD I took because, as much as I love the music, certain passages get painful (when played loudly) on every system I've heard - except, now, one. That's the grandest trick of all. Andy, among others, mentions the truth of ribbons often. Until now, I've been able to ignore him. I'm glad I'd never heard them - would have skewed my outlook.
Why the hell am I gushing like this? I feel like a school kid with a crush on a girl with whom I had my first date on the night before she went off to band camp for a couple months.
What does any of the foregoing have to do with razoring? Well, I HRed (all I can do) my MMGs the night before auditioning the 3.6s. I didn't listen to my speakers again until after that fateful audition. I was very happy with the sound of my modded/hybridized MMGs - especially after auditioning 1.7s (saw them as a project with great potential). My reaction to the 3.6s was different - better in every way right out of the gate.
Thirty years ago (give or take) I had a brief encounter with a pair of Apogee Scintillas. I was younger and didn't appreciate how rare their magic was, but just as I was really getting into it, the amp tossed in the white flag. It was a Nakamichi with a design Nelson Pass claims was essentially stolen from him, and it kneeled, begging for mercy in a minute and a half. I shrugged and left. Now, with a half century in my rearview mirror, I have my first encounter with Magnepan's ribbon. This time, the amp was actually Nelson's creation and it not only failed to choke, but it also failed to strain. I experienced the rapture of the ribbons and it changed my perception.
I can't wait until that second date and there will be a preacher present for this one. I wonder how long the honeymoon will last?
---
I think my point is that I'll never be able to comment on whether the HR treatment did any good - for MMG panels screwed into hardwood. I'm ruined.
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
No doubt the magnepan ribbon is world class. I have heard it on some 20s and well if Steve Winey makes available his rumored 1.6s with the ribbon tweets, I'll buy it in a heart beat.
Though I need a new room for them and more dough and I never thought the Pass would handle 3.6s. Thanks internet forum. FWIW, I WAS going to buy a pair anyhow but stuff happened and I realized my rooms would be forever too small for them.
Lucky you have or will have one large enough to NEED the 3.6s.
BTW, Rickey is right!
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
As I understand it, the ribbons cannot be purchased outright. A core must be sent to Magnepan in order to get replacements . I wonder how many pair of trashed ribbon equipped maggies are out there? If one could find such a pair, the ribbons could either be used (if they're still good) or sent to Magnepan for replacements which could then be used for some Son-of-Frankenpan MMGs. If new frames are part of the equation, incorporating ribbons seems well within reach.
There is more to like about the 3.6s than just the ribbon, but they do demand quite a bit of space. I will have 5' behind mine - finally, some breathing room. Imagine what a pair of sub enhanced MMGs with ribbon tweets could accomplish. I bet they'd blow your mind!
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
Hey waz,
Great minds. (newform research comes to mind, but the mid bass is all wrong IMHO)
As a matter of fact, I had posted about this 5-6 years ago and well the same old stuff, everyone tries to talk you out of it....What is that line about 1,000 men appointed to guard the past?
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
"If Steve Winey makes available his rumored 1.6s with the ribbon tweets, I'll buy it in a heart beat."
What 1.6 with ribbon tweets?
HIs personal pair of 1.6s is said to be tweaked...with true ribbons
Here is the closest post I could find but nothing definitive.
No one here remembers the bending of our minds
I'm thinking you could make one yourself for about $2000 . . . $3000 if you wanted to go first class and start with a 1.7. Might actually be a solution for me, the only other options I can think of are split IVA's, mini maggies, or some kind of Frankenpan which I'll never have the time to build.
Waz, I am sooooo glad that your ears still can tell the difference that those tweeters can make!
Thirty years after those Scintillas and you can still smell the good sauce.
It's hard to put into words really, because they almost seemed to have less treble as they bombarded my ears with more nuanced highs than I can remember hearing from a stereo system before. The plucking of strings is rendered with the most absolute realism I've ever heard from a speaker. Cymbals, bells or anything struck strikes your ears with the richest, truest harmonic textures one could ever hope to hear. There was definitely more treble, but it was so well shaped that it never became overwhelming.
Oh yes, my ears are still doing okay. I know I've lost a little of my top end, but not, it appears, enough to steal my enjoyment of superb treble.
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
over time! :-))Enjoy them for 6 months in your new room and figure out where best to place them. Then you can contemplate the long list of improvements that you can make! :-))
I think of Maggie this way (any of the Maggie sisters!). She definitely comes from the wrong side of the tracks ... dressed in op-shop clothing with lank, greasy hair. But she's got a nice figure hidden under the sack dress she's wearing! :-)) So some judicious plastic surgery on her face, a designer wardrobe and some culture/elocution lessons can turn her into a real babe, to enchant and beguile the most surly of men! :-))
Good luck ... how can you stand the wait? (Remember, building projects always go over time! :-)) )
Regards,
Andy
Edits: 06/28/10
.
.
I remember too. I bought my MG-IIIA's on faith, having had Maggies for years but never having heard one of the ribbon models. Never. I remember it was Saturday morning and I hooked them up in my room, put on some music, and everything changed...
Everything.
bb
Welcome!
Buy the 3.6's and a pair of Grant's stands. You'll be very happy and you will be able to sit and listen to music instead of working on your speaker projects.
Leave the fuse in for a while. Until you really see how your amp drives them. Some of the best have been humbled by their appetites.
Isn't it amazing?
bb
As I listened to them I was struck with the thought that I couldn't sense anything that needed improvement - they sounded simply delicious as they were. I auditioned the 1.7s a couple weeks earlier and decided I wanted a pair, but I had plans to immediately rip them apart. Their midrange was far better than anything I'd heard in a stock maggie, but the treble had issues not unlike those of my MMGs (which improved with the mods).
I plan on having Mye Stands waiting for the delivery of the 3.6s. That's the extent of the mods I have planned at the moment and I have a feeling that situation won't change for a while.
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
Sounds like a good plan to me!
Hang on to your sub woofers. A little reinforcement never hurt.
bb
All along, after I tried the HR mod with the P-frames, I kept thinking that someone with Grant's stands should try HR and report. I don't know where it would be placed (lazy, I guess, pictures are posted around).It just seems like the similarities between PF and stand-bracing leave the doors open for HR (and, perhaps, FR) to do its good in just more than MMGs and the few other reported models.
Perhaps Grant can pitch in with his own thoughts on the matter. He's always struck me as the open-minded type.
Edits: 06/26/10
You do realize you can "PF+HR" the 3.6's don't you?
In the back room of a Pawn Shop, hooked to a cheap Pioneer receiver, one listen to the 2.5's hooked me on ribbons. Even on that poor setup, I knew the ribbons added serious potential to Maggies. Then some guy comes up wih the idea of damping the driver frames themselves, and it actually works.
Were I incredibly wealthy, I wouldn't give a second thought to ripping into a $5,000 pair of speakers - I'm not, so I do. At just over a tenth of the cost, a pair of MMGs lends itself to extreme modding without the concern of spoiling a significant investment. The same simply cannot be said for the 3.6, although I do consider them a true bargain. I do not, however, think that's the only explanation for the fact that they tend to remain pretty much stock for most inmates.
I'm not kidding when I say that I wasn't really sure what to expect out of the audition. There were the recommendations by owners, but I still had all these negative ideas about the 3.6s - complicated speaker level crossover, big and thirsty, my amp isn't exactly a monster, and how will my ears react to all that treble (as someone has warned)? Believe me, I had my share of positive expectations - why would the ribbon lovers lie?
They are like any other speaker in that a subwoofer system is necessary, not because of any apparent deficiency in the speaker (when it's in the recording, it comes out with sufficient authority), but because of the deficiency in all too many recordings. Aside from that, they are better in every respect than what I have now - and not by a narrow margin. They don't seem to me like a project waiting to be executed. They kept quieting my mind as they sang so many familiar tunes in an unfamiliarly limpid manner.
The 3.6 hits the ground sounding glorious. I have no doubt they can be improved (just look at what Andy has done), but my first listen was as pleasing as anything I've experienced in the world of music reproduction. I think the honeymoon will last a few years at least. The truth is, we inmates are a restless bunch - they will undergo a transformation or two!
It's only a matter of time ;-)
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
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