Planar Speaker Asylum

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Planar Speaker Asylum

My new 3.6'a ribbon screws are screwed: the holes are stripped out

65.25.174.233

A few days into Maggie 3.6 ownership and I figure time to just check on the screws in back. All the bigger 'body screws just fine. The right speaker's Ribbon tweet screws a bit loose but snug up perfectly. Then I get to the left speakers ribbon screws and more than half of them are totally stripped out. The screws turn and turn and actually turn quite freely.
I called Magnepan and complained they have idiots with power tools running amok!!
I talked to the floor manager. Told him I can fix them, but they need to stop the idioot who is doing this.

Follow Ups:

RE: My new 3.6'a ribbon screws are screwed: the holes are stripped out - russ69 10:28:15 02/25/10 (1)
Quality is always an interesting discussion. It's sometimes hard to comprehend but quality is about producing the lowest level of quality that is still acceptable to the customer. Magnepan has that nailed. You don't build a Cadillac if the customer is looking for a Chevy. As long as the buying customer is satisfied you are doing your job.

Thanx, Russ
- RE: My new 3.6'a ribbon screws are screwed: the holes are stripped out - thebordas 20:22:36 02/25/10 (0)
  Personaly, I am extremely happy Magnepan has kept their production costs down, otherwise my 3.6R's would have cost me the price of te 20.1's! I think they are a terrrifc bargain and if any problems are present when purchasing new Maggies...use your dealer to remedy the problem.
  dave_b
Maybe Magnepan should take a que from Harley Davidson. - RickeyM 19:04:53 02/24/10 (18)
At one time, Harley was doing not so well because their product was considered shoddy and unreliable. Then someone pulled their head out of their butts and said enough's enough. We going to engineer a good product and build it in such a way that we don't take a back seat to anybody.

Simply put, if a given company cares enough, they can cut way down on defective merchandise going out the door.
- Absoloodle - and as I understand it (re. H-D)... - andyr 00:19:53 02/25/10 (17)
  1. That was when a woman became the CEO?
  and
  2. They became much more profitable?
  
  Regards,
  
  Andy
  - RE: Absoloodle - and as I understand it (re. H-D)... - russ69 10:16:02 02/25/10 (16)
    No a woman was not the CEO at Harley. What happened is that the parent company (AMF) pulled all the money out of Harley and spent nothing on R and D. It's when they sold the company to the small group of management that turned the company around. The AMF "suits" ran it into the ground, the core enthusiasts saved the company.
    The history books are not finished at this point, they had great success in the expanding markets of 1990-2005 but things are not as bright now and their continued success is in question.
    
    Thanx, Russ
    - RE: H-D ... - andyr 00:26:47 02/26/10 (15)
      I read a great story in the local newspaper a few years ago about a local motorcycle cop who had to retire from the Force because he contracted MS.
      
      As you might imagine, he loved riding his bike and he said he chose a Harley ... because it had sufficient "wallow" in the steering to put up with the shakes resulting from his MS. Whereas the steering on a Jap bike, he said, was so pin-point sharp it would've flicked him off immediately!! :-))
      
      Regards,
      
      Andy
      - RE: H-D ... - thebordas 05:57:08 02/26/10 (14)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by andyr on February 26, 2010 at 00:26:47
        
        That story and "Wallow" comment apply directly to the Maggies less than rigid stands....I kinda like my 3.6's the way they are. Maybe the movement of the panels in reaction to the musical signal sets up some sort of pleasing harmonic resonance:O)
        dave_b
        
        RE: H-D ... - MaggieLover 11:57:59 02/26/10 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by thebordas on February 26, 2010 at 05:57:08
        
        "Maybe the movement of the panels in reaction to the musical signal sets up some sort of pleasing harmonic resonance"
        
        It called smearing.
        
        Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
        
        Mark
        
        RE: H-D ... - thebordas 13:14:12 02/26/10 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by MaggieLover on February 26, 2010 at 11:57:59
        
        My comment was in jest...but I am happy:O)
        dave_b
        
        RE: H-D ... - MaggieLover 20:04:42 02/26/10 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by thebordas on February 26, 2010 at 13:14:12
        
        This quote is from the recent Absolute Sound review of the Mye's: "What�s the result of what amounts to about a half hour of labor? Simply stunning. The first and most notable improvement is in the bass, which develops far more punch and tautness. Another one is more silent backgrounds. They seem, for lack of a better term, �blacker,� or, if you prefer, quieter. Finally, the mids and highs are greatly cleaned up. The sound absent the stands seems to be more smeared and fuzzy. Transients, particularly in the treble, possess increased snap and speed."
        
        Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
        
        Mark
        
        RE: H-D ... - thebordas 20:56:11 02/26/10 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by MaggieLover on February 26, 2010 at 20:04:42
        
        Thanks, I have to say however, that I am already hearing what they are describing.
        dave_b
        
        RE: H-D ... - MaggieLover 06:54:03 02/27/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by thebordas on February 26, 2010 at 20:56:11
        
        That's was my point from my earlier note. No one can accurately assume "I am already hearing what they are describing" . Listening to others systems yourself is the only way to find out how your sound compares. I hope your system sounds good, but if I based my opinion soley on your earlier description, I would be unenthusiastic. I won't do that because individual impressions on such a subtle subject, and the ability to accuratey convey the meaning of those impressions to others is an almost impossible task. Even the accepted "descriptive" language of HiFi is open to interpretation by each of us, and when descriptions also use terms not included in that lexicon, the situation gets worse.
        
        Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
        
        Mark
        
        Edits: 02/27/10 02/27/10
        
        RE: H-D ... - thebordas 07:31:46 02/27/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by MaggieLover on February 27, 2010 at 06:54:03
        
        Until I have the extra cash, i will have time to decide if it's something I want to try..thanks!
        dave_b
        
        RE: H-D ... - MaggieLover 08:19:17 02/26/10 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by thebordas on February 26, 2010 at 05:57:08
        
        That story and "Wallow" comment apply directly to the Maggies less than rigid stands....I kinda like my 3.6's the way they are.
        
        Perhaps you wouldn't be as satisfied if you could hear the improvement over stock a pair of Mye stands make.
        
        Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
        
        Mark
        
        RE: H-D ... - thebordas 08:42:46 02/26/10 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by MaggieLover on February 26, 2010 at 08:19:17
        
        Anything that tends to overly damp, focus or tighten up the natural bloom of the sound is the anti-christ to my sensibilities. Live music at Boston Symphony Hall flows and washes over you with ease, dynamic freedom and bloom...highs are sweet and shimmery(not sharp or lazer focused), mids are full and warm with burnished bite and texture (not congealed or packed too tight) and the bass is enormously rich and powerfull (not anemic or restrained). If stands would tend to dial in those negative aspects I mentioned more tightly, then count me out for sure. One thing I even have to remind myself of, is that my cabling and PC choices, combined with some other very minor tweaks, give me what I hear described by other Maggie owners who have had mods and or purchased stands to try and obtain.
        dave_b
        
        RE: H-D ... - MaggieLover 11:51:59 02/26/10 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by thebordas on February 26, 2010 at 08:42:46
        
        One thing I even have to remind myself of, is that my cabling and PC choices, combined with some other very minor tweaks, give me what I hear described by other Maggie owners who have had mods and or purchased stands to try and obtain.
        
        All conjecture on your part. I've heard 1.6's and 3.6's both ways and Mye stands allow you to hear through the music better. The bass is better, tighter and deeper, certainly not anemic, the midrange is clearer and the soundstage is more realistic. Altogether a more expressive listening experience, I've never regretted the purchase, If you actually have heard modded and well setup speakers and still prefer what you have, than at least that's a decision you've made based on experience and preference. However, your assumption that you can get without mods what others get with them, based only on the words people use to describe what they hear, is IMHO only wishful thinking.
        
        By the way, I attend an average of 50 live concerts a year, just about every week. They include classical, jazz, folk and some rock, Except for the dynamics that no home system can match, with good recordings what I experience at home often comes very close to the live experience.
        
        Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
        
        Mark
        
        RE: H-D ... - thebordas 13:25:28 02/26/10 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by MaggieLover on February 26, 2010 at 11:51:59
        
        Hey Maggie Lover, I was waxing content from a third person POV. Not meant to be declarative...only expressing my hesitation over tampering with an already good system. Deep down, I'm pretty sure I will eventually do at least the stands. As for surgery...nah, I just couldn't bring myself to allow my 3.6's to go under the knife:O( Question, why no scuttlebutt around here about Mapleshades Maggie stands? Just no Trolls or just no good? They sure look alot more substantial than the Mye stands!
        dave_b
        
        RE: H-D ... - josh358 08:41:31 02/27/10 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by thebordas on February 26, 2010 at 13:25:28
        
        I looked for the Mapleshades online, but couldn't find them.
        
        Anyway, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Mye stands are a non-destructive mod -- they go through the existing foot mounting holes and have clamps that hold the frame in the middle.
        
        I don't see why you couldn't try this effect to see if you like it before committing yourself to Mye stands, BTW. Just put something heavy on the existing feet and clamp a couple of angled supports to the speaker. It won't be as rigid as the Myes, but any support of the upper part of the panel is going to result in a significant improvement in that to-and-fro vibration, so it should give you enough of the effect to let you know if you want to spring for the Myes. I'm planning to try it myself, I can't see spending $600 on speaker stands for $600 MMG's!
        
        BTW, I know what you're saying about the ease of natural sound and the overprecise, clinical sound of stereo, but letting speakers vibrate won't give you what you're after, which is the missing hall ambiance and the ease that comes from low distortion and flat frequency response. Letting the speakers vibrate will mostly just smear and color the sound and rob the speakers of bass extension -- the real kind, not the thumpy, boomy peak-and-dip stereo kind (although I suppose there's a risk that you'll emphasize the speaker's bass resonance).
        
        RE: H-D ... - thebordas 12:42:17 02/27/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by josh358 on February 27, 2010 at 08:41:31
        
        Thanks, I'll see what I can come up with...let me know how your temp trial works out.
        dave_b
        
        RE: H-D ... - josh358 14:38:01 02/27/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by thebordas on February 27, 2010 at 12:42:17
        
        Can't wait to try it. I'm thinking I'll modify my (very primitive and incomplete) MMG feet with an oak floor board and MDF front piece (part of the original design but never implemented since I wanted to experiment with the height), then try adding Mye-style braces. Still not sure what I'll make the braces with, if anyone has any ideas I'd love to hear them, the only metalworking tools I have here are a hand drill and hack saw.
        
        I also want to experiment with a triangular bass extension wing on the woofer side -- I'd previously tried larger wings and a baffle extension, but they didn't sound very good. And baffle stiffening (steel down the sides, under the oak trim?). I'll report back here, but I suspect it won't happen for a month or two because everything was disassembled while the space was being renovated.
        
        RE: H-D ... - MaggieLover 19:36:11 02/26/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: H-D ... posted by thebordas on February 26, 2010 at 13:25:28
        
        I've seen pictures of the MapleShade stands, but have not heard them. Theye were not in the latest catalog.
        
        Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
        
        Mark
Elizabeth, what's the latest?? - delaney@rea-alp.com 12:03:40 02/24/10 (0)
Very curious... I admire your tenacity to try and fix the loose screws... Did your dealer offer to replace the one 3.6R? Has Magnepan offered? Everyone is different, but I'd be asking to speak to Mr Diller asap about a replacement 3.6R.
RE: My new 3.6'a ribbon screws are screwed: the holes are stripped out - colebearanimals 10:05:32 02/24/10 (0)
Hi, I'm a cabinet maker by trade. Screws into MDF is a lousy sinereo. Not sure how many screws are involved here. The ultimate fix? Install threaded inserts and use machine screws w/ lock washers. Paul
I must have missed something. - plumbob 09:51:51 02/24/10 (4)
If I dropped 20K on a local dealer and received defective merchandise, there
should only need to be one phone call. Especially since he's a straight
shooter. He has clout with the manufacturer if needed. If not, he has the
problem. If a second call if needed, it wouldn't be to the manufacturer.
The only question would seem to be whether the dealer's fix is acceptable
(which seems to be the case) or a replacement or compensation is necessary.
This also moves the liability for the fix to where it should be. I'm
assuming this transaction was legitimate and occurred in a normal location.
I'm not disagreeing with any of the, probably appropriate, comments here just that they are not relevant to fixing her problem, mostly to its cause.
- I guess I am more forgiving. I do not need to get irate over a minor issue, I complained.. that's enough - Elizabeth 20:47:09 02/24/10 (2)
  Going ballistic over some little thing is not for me.
  ( I got angry, yeah, but...
  i do not need brand new replacement speakers hand built be the owner whe then commits seppuku .Nor do I plan to fly my Cessna into Magnepan Corporate Headquarters as a "message" that they can't mess with me.
  i figure it is something I can handle. i just wanted to complain. I did complain, and broadcast it here. Beyond that I do not need a revenge killing, human sacrifice, nor even a severed pinkie.
  (If the speaker was really messed up it would be different.)
  - Magnepan have to ask for your forgiveness, before you offer it. - Norman M 09:09:21 02/25/10 (0)
    Heck, you've gone way more ballistic over this than I would. First I would have called them and very politely and forgivingly asked them what to do next? (BTW I don't think I would have wasted any of my time by posting and then replying to this thread.) If I concluded that your dealer's and/or Magnepan's response was unsatisfactory, I would have quietly gone ahead and disputed the charge with my credit card company.
    Firstly and lastly this is a "business", and a hobby next.
    
    Now if I were in charge in Magnepan's headquarters, I would have aplogized and shipped you out a new pair and arranged for return of the defective set. Furthermore as a demonstration of good faith I would send you a free pair of refurbished MMGs (they must have some of those in stock as returns from buyers who have stepped up the ladder) as compensation for your trouble.
  - You're letting them off lightly, Elizabeth. :-)) nt - andyr 00:21:34 02/25/10 (0)
    .
- RE: I must have missed something. - thebordas 12:19:46 02/24/10 (0)
  Absolutely, I forgot to mention that my 3.6's came with the new vertical crossovers and one of them had cosmetic issues....needless to say, my dealer ordered me a new one immediately. Screws loose? Fageda 'bout it..bam!
  dave_b
RE: My new 3.6'a ribbon screws are screwed: the holes are stripped out - thebordas 05:31:21 02/24/10 (8)
Did your Maggies arrive unopened from your dealer Elizabeth? Just wondering.
dave_b
- Yes arrived with packing 'bands' all in place (not something many folks can make - Elizabeth 08:45:39 02/24/10 (7)
  The plastic packaging bands big companies use to ship with still in place. And I know he just ordered them.
  My dealer is a foursquare type anyway. No shady stuff there. Maybe a little pressure, a little BS slips out here or there, but all in all, a good guy.
  He's a "a wire is a wire' sort, and can't seem to hear High Freq. stuff I (at age 60) easily notice. but I've been a customer for... Jeeez, 27 years?
  If it was any dealer in my area to hand $20,000. to.. It would preferably be him. Yeah 20 large..
  Instead of a new car I bought a stereo. I hope I like it!!!!! !!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!
  - I feel your pain - Joe Schmo 13:22:35 02/24/10 (3)
    Sorry to hear about the screw problem, but congratulations on the new system!
    
    Now me on the other hand, I opted for the new car ...... a 2010 Toyota Tundra. Yup, bought it two days before the big news! If you see a grey streak flash past you on the interstate and a voice shouting "enjoy the Maggies in rememberance of me" as a Tundra careens off a cliff and explodes, you'll know it was me. :-(
    
    BTW, joking aside, I love my new truck and I'm not at all worried.
    
    Enjoy your new Maggies.
    
    -Joe
    
    They're not that big!
    - My old Contour SVT I have had for 11 years can STILL go 140 mph - Elizabeth 13:40:10 02/24/10 (2)
      I LOVE MY CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      - My old Focus SVT ... - mrr 23:53:02 02/25/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My old Contour SVT I have had for 11 years can STILL go 140 mph posted by Elizabeth on February 24, 2010 at 13:40:10
        
        Hi,
        I drive an 8 year old Focus SVT myself. Great car. Ford really messed up when they phased out the SVT group. They were building some very nice vehilces. Just the right combination of speed, comfort, and affordability. what do they have on the market today in a similar vein? Nothing.
        
        Enjoy. Makes the decision to buy sound gear much easier, doesn't it?
        
        bb
      - Wow, you have one of those! - Keith944T 18:04:00 02/25/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My old Contour SVT I have had for 11 years can STILL go 140 mph posted by Elizabeth on February 24, 2010 at 13:40:10
        
        You do have good taste!
        I had an Omni GLH turbo for a while that was a cool little sleeper, but the Contour has much more class!
  - RE: Yes arrived with packing 'bands' all in place (not something many folks can make - thebordas 09:26:31 02/24/10 (2)
    I think it's refreshing to see someone choose a stereo over a new car...art over practicality. Did you purchase a whole system?
    dave_b
    - all Bryston, amp,pre,D/A, Phono with Maggies and a Rega P-5 - Elizabeth 13:37:31 02/24/10 (1)
      I WAS gonna buy a used Audio Research Ref-3 and a PH-7.. with my new Maggie 3.6 and the Bryston 4B.. But I did not have enough money to do that and still get the Bryston D/A and a nice new TT.
      So I bought the Bryston 4B-SST*2, the BP-26 with the separate 1.5 phono section. And the D/A converter. The Maggie 3.6 and the Rega P-5 with a Benz Glider. including a 7 meter Hero for pre to amp run. It might have been a little over 20 large...
      - RE: all Bryston, amp,pre,D/A, Phono with Maggies and a Rega P-5 - thebordas 16:06:20 02/24/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: all Bryston, amp,pre,D/A, Phono with Maggies and a Rega P-5 posted by Elizabeth on February 24, 2010 at 13:37:31
        
        Enjoy and expect to spend the next year or so getting the system tuned to your preferences...it should be fun and exciting!
        dave_b
There's a lot of justified griping, but Elizabeth did you - Keith944T 20:13:21 02/23/10 (19)
ask the dealer and/or the folks at Maggieland what their policy is on this?
And what they would do for this?

I'm just asking because I didn't see that posted in this thread.
I can also understand your reluctance to ship them off for something you believe you can fix yourself. (I personally might not do it myself because I'm too lazy to take off all those staples I've heard so much about)

Now there is no excuse for poor quality control and PG is in a position to have seen the evidence of the lack therof. But here is just something ELSE to consider though...

I don't have a clue how many speakers Magnepan puts out a year, and, with all due respect PG, it would seem the most speakers you could get done in a year is what, 52?
And yes, I think the odds are you are going to hear more from people with things wrong with their speakers or people with old or second hand speakers.
And it seems the number of people posting here isn't THAT large either, and maybe only a dozen or so consistently?
All I'm saying is that maybe we don't really have enough of a sample base to say how many of the speakers are built that badly.
I've seen $100,000 Porsches with carpet that didn't reach where it was supposed to. Brand new Ferraris that the shift knob came off. (and worse too)

Now back when Wendell did post here, I did speak with him and I posted what I got from our conversation back then.
However, I've had another talk or two with him since and the impression I get is that he sees this forum for tweakers and modifiers, not their "general customer".
- How many? - Peter Gunn 06:25:27 02/24/10 (6)
  52! Holy crap, why don't you dig my grave already :^ )
  
  It's more like 25, and that's in a perfect year where nothing interferes. Still it's been a while now so it adds up to a lot.
  
  First, delam is delam. We all wish they'd use a better adhesive, they don't, so be it. It can also be dealt with if you catch it at the right time, so it's a minor quibble and not what I'm talking about. It is also the only time people know they have an issue before sending me anything.
  
  The problems bothering me people never know they had. There is no way to know how badly a tension button is applied or if the mylar is on wrong unless you de-sock them. It comes as a shock to the owners. I have also seen enough old models to know these problems do not occur on them. They simply do not.
  
  Now, the OP's problem I have not seen, but I have seen other casual errors of this type. That's the sort of thing I'd expect to once in a while slip thru a production line, and if that were it, no big deal.
  
  But tension buttons so badly applied the mylar is literally buckled, the wires stretched and distorted and beginning to rip off, the mylar so mislaid it is literally rippled and as a result the wires are not laying where they should be.... this is inexcuseable. It's also becoming a far too common sight, and it's hardly hard to miss. It also does not occur on older models.
  
  Mis-laid mylar I have seen 3 cases of. I have heard about 2 others. But it's SO obviously wrong when you see it one can't imagine how it got thru the door.
  
  Tension button issues however I can't count on 2 hands. This is almost pandemic. I cannot recall the last pair I saw that did not have at least 1 mis-applied button. Probably the 2.7's I bought for myself last year. This may be due to their application method. Old ones (like my 2.7) are put on with rivets. They are always perfect. New ones are screwed in.
  
  I don't think people post about it because as I said, most don't know they have these problems and those that do took care of it, what's to post about? For the record the pair of mine that guy listed to sell on here last month had buckled tension buttons, and probably because it was so cold when he shipped them to the new owner they pulled enough that they actually ripped the mylar. I had to send the guy a patch to fix them. This should not be happening.
  
  It's all about the music...
  - This is a problem of 'young people in general vs older generation.. - Elizabeth 08:55:45 02/24/10 (5)
    This may cause consternation, but in general, none professional folks under 45 just do not give a damn about work. And under 35 they are hardly able figure out what work is supposed to be. Under 35 they seem to think God owes them a nice job with zero hassles. And the expect to have a friendly, 'fun' work environment.
    Shit! when I started working, you just worked and the bosses could and did fu*k you over six ways every day. Now, the whiners cry mama if the supervisor squints at them.
    I hated it when I would bust my ass doing a 20,000 XX job and nary a "ok, do this next..' the 20 somethings do a 500XX job and got lavish praise as they complain they got 'hot, almost SWEATY!!" from the exertion.
    - RE: This is a problem of 'young people in general vs older generation.. - Frank I 09:24:01 02/24/10 (4)
      I think Elizabeth your point is very valid. People complain that manufacturing is done outside of the US. Actually I have noticed that American goods are not manufactured as they once were. We destroyed our manufacturing system in this country by exactly as you say the generation of people today just do not care. American auto makers driven out of business with p9or quality products. Now we are seeing the problems with Toyota which are now manufactured for the US market in the US. I seen the quality issues with my 2007 Camry. Side panels falling off and parts missing screws and I am not talking about the design problems with the gas pedals. The general attitude our workers and products we do manufacturer are poor. There are some exceptions but overall poor attitude of the younger generation needs much to be desired. While many will take a hard stance on products being manufactured in China I have noticed is that most of the products are well made and manufactured properly.
      - Unfortunately - plumbob 10:07:32 02/24/10 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: This is a problem of 'young people in general vs older generation.. posted by Frank I on February 24, 2010 at 09:24:01
        
        Foreign car manufacturers made such inroads in this market
        because of products produced by the young generation of 20
        to 40 years ago. (I think that's us.) And the current
        young generation is a product of ?(not us again). It's true
        that our past level of living has allowed the present
        younger generation to mature relative to responsibility more
        slowly than we did. But in over 40 years of working in all
        sorts of organizations and businesses, I can't say that quality
        control problems are directly related to age groups. Doesn't
        mean they can't be addressed. They should be. Is the historic
        perspective that the marketplace would provide the correction,
        not working?
        
        RE: Unfortunately - josh358 10:28:10 02/24/10 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Unfortunately posted by plumbob on February 24, 2010 at 10:07:32
        
        I remember watching the degradation in the quality of American manufacturing when I was doing engineering in audio and video facilities in the late 70's/early 80's. Take Ampex, for example, the remarkable company that introduced audio tape to America and then invented the practical videotape recorder in the late 50's. You had a panoply of their products, and the earlier they were, the better they were made. With every generation of audio and video recorder, the parts grew skimpier, the quality control shoddier, the reliability lower. And it wasn't just Ampex, it happened in every American industry.
        
        Does it have something to do with the spoiled me-me-me self-indulgence of we boomers, and the generations that followed? I tend to suspect that it does, that we moved from having high expectations of ourselves to having high expectations of what others would do for us. Thanks to post-war prosperity, we grew up to be, in effect, spoiled rich kids. And so we started making crap, while the Japanese made a fetish of quality, and now we try to make an "easy money" living -- lots of government services but lower taxes, an emphasis on short-term profits, takeovers, leveraged buyouts, monopolies, get-rich-quick derivatives that create imaginary paper profits while the factories that actually create wealth move offshore, borrowing money from the Chinese so we can buy goods that others have made and then wondering why we're growing poorer. And the frustrating thing is that both liberals and conservatives are guilty in this. We blame everything on the other side, but the sad fact is we're *both* to blame.
        
        But, whatever the cause, I had the sad experience of watching storied companies that had pioneered their fields, companies like Ampex and RCA, go the way of the dodo thanks to products that while they were far in advance of anything else technologically became increasingly unreliable and shoddy as time went on.
        
        RE: Unfortunately - Peter Gunn 10:40:51 02/24/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Unfortunately posted by josh358 on February 24, 2010 at 10:28:10
        
        "I would not be one of those who will foolishly drive a nail into mere lath and plastering; such a deed would keep me awake nights. Give me a hammer, and let me feel for the furring. Do not depend on the putty. Drive a nail home and clinch it so faithfully that you can wake up in the night and think of your work with satisfaction -- a work at which you would not be ashamed to invoke the Muse. So will help you God, and so only. Every nail driven should be as another rivet in the machine of the universe, you carrying on the work."
        
        Henry David Thoreau
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        RE: Unfortunately - josh358 11:10:24 02/24/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Unfortunately posted by Peter Gunn on February 24, 2010 at 10:40:51
        
        That's a great quote.
        
        The house I living in was built in 1695, and boy, those Yankees didn't mess around with construction.
- RE: There's a lot of justified griping, but Elizabeth did you - MaggieLover 21:58:17 02/23/10 (9)
  All I'm saying is that maybe we don't really have enough of a sample base to say how many of the speakers are built that badly.
  
  I have to respectfuly disagree.
  
  First, I have seen several pairs of Maggies naked, and regardless of how well they may sound for their cost, their low cost is directly related to significant shortcuts in manuufacture. It really doesn't take a whole lot of training to recognize 2nd rate workmanship. Its readily apparent in the frames, the feet, the tension buttons and the way they're attached through the mylar to the pole piece, the wiring, the use of paper and the use double sided sticky tape under the buttons. and most of all the way the panels are attached to the frames. The list goes on. With practically any high end speakers today, when you take off the grille cloth the speakers still looks first rate, and perhaps even better. When the grill cloth is off the Maggies, it is very apparent how they can be sold at such reasonable prices.
  
  Second, although the number of regular posters is far more than 10-12, your argument about insufficient sample size seems reasonable at first. As you point out, the posters on this site are only a small subset of the Maggie owener population. It begs the question therefore, if we here who are more knowledgable are seeing a significant number of construction flaws, one can only wonder how many undetected flawed or substandard Maggies are being owned and played by the general public who just don't know better.
  
  Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
  
  Mark
  - Then you should have bought some rebuilt Apogees. - morricab 06:18:57 02/24/10 (1)
    nt
    - RE: Then you should have bought some rebuilt Apogees. - MaggieLover 06:40:45 02/24/10 (0)
      That really has nothing to do with this issue.
      
      Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
      
      Mark
  - but this isn't the point - wazoo 04:42:12 02/24/10 (3)
    The issue is not about the quality of materials or the basic design. The issue, and it is a serious one, is simply the workmanship - how those parts are assembled. All of the things about which you commented are design elements, not shortcomings in the actual assembly of those parts.
    PG (and, I believe, the bulk of this community) is not asking for Magnepan to design their speakers differently; he's only asking them to take pride in their manufacture - to build them with care and attention to detail. Keith's point that PG may not have seen a proper cross-section of these speakers to accurately assess Magnepan's real quality standards is well constructed, but I also respectfully disagree. Even though the number of speakers he has modified is a tiny fraction (of a fraction) of Magnepan's annual output, I think he is in a better position to comment on this matter than just about anyone who doesn't work at Magnepan (and, apparently, they either don't know or care).
    I agree with your last point (and it's why I respectfully disagree with Keith). I was lucky. The only construction issues I found in mine were some really poorly crimped connectors. Sure, the evidence that these speakers are built on the cheap is overwhelming, but that's a different matter entirely. Quite a few loonies in this forum have tackled that issue head on, and we've discovered how marvelous the Magnepan transducers actually are. I think the truly amazing thing is how well a pair of Maggies performs in spite of the construction flaws that plague them.
    I think the central theme of this thread is the importance of Quality Control. Perhaps an ISO9001 certification (and the requisite controls) would be good for Magnepan. Honestly though, such a certification (and its required practices) is completely unnecessary if only their employees would execute their work with pride and craftsmanship. That's all we're asking.
    
    "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ
    
    Edits: 02/24/10
    - RE: but this isn't the point - delaney@rea-alp.com 12:22:51 02/24/10 (0)
      Believe me, the assemblers out in the shop at Magnepan may as well be making widgets, as IMO, most of the 'shop' employees are not likely to be customers of the product line. That does not excuse quality control issues at all. Typical manufacturing quality control issues that must be/can be/and will be corrected.
    - Correct again - Peter Gunn 06:39:11 02/24/10 (0)
      I am complaining about issues that were never seen 12+ years ago. If it never happened then, it should not be happening now.
      
      It's all about the music...
    - Correct! - MaggieLover 06:13:36 02/24/10 (0)
      Certainly agree! Cheap manufacture in itself is certainly not a crime if it meets the design objectives, is reliable, and allow the manufacturer to save money on construction. If part of those savings are passed on to the customers, as Magnepan seems to do, all the better. But when quality and reliability suffer from poor design or manufacture, as customers we all have a right to be disappointed, complain, fix the problems ourselves if necessary, and ultimately spend our money elsewhere if we so choose.
      
      I'm reminded of a number of posts I've read in the asylum and elsewhere over the years by former Maggie owners complaining of terrible sound and high distortion. They thought Maggies were junk and could not understand how they were so highly rated. At the time, I did not know what to make of it. I guessed that not everyone was a Magnepan type of guy (or gal). But now I'm thinking that perhaps some just had defective speakers. Its not a stretch!
      
      Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
      
      Mark
  - Maybe there are only - Keith944T 04:25:43 02/24/10 (1)
    a dozen or so handles that stick in my head. I admit I didn't do a scientific study, nor even count names.
    
    I wasn't really suggesting there's not a problem. With the situation that just happened to Elizabeth, it's obvious there is. I'm just saying maybe there aren't enough numbers being reported back to the company for them to think there is a significant enough problem to fix.
    - RE: Maybe there are only - MaggieLover 05:53:35 02/24/10 (0)
      I'm just saying maybe there aren't enough numbers being reported back to the company for them to think there is a significant enough problem to fix.
      
      The first part of this statement is probably true. There probably aren't a significant number of problems reported.
      
      Most people would be tolerant of less than perfect sound, as long as the speakers played "reasonably". And unless they had a pair to compare to, they might not even think they had a problem at all. I lived with a periodic buzz for a year on my left speaker, which only occurred on a few cuts on very few albums with certain high level low bass notes. The problem was very sporadic. When I finally took a look, it was a loose and poorly applied tension button, which I repaired with PGs assistance, eliminating the buzz. I'm sure only one person in a hundred would go through the effort to fix a problem that happened so infrequently. But it was still a problem and I never called them about it. I fixed it myself.
      
      If people don't complain enough, the second part may be true primarily as a result of the first. But quality control and superior construction shouldn't result solely based on how many people complain about a product.
      
      Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
      
      Mark
  - Spot on, bro! :-)) nt - andyr 22:11:31 02/23/10 (0)
    .
- Taking off the tweeter column is not removing staples, just the screws - Elizabeth 20:49:17 02/23/10 (1)
  The tweet is a separate piece and the screws that hold it in place are the problem ones. Folks take the tweet off all the time to replace broken ribbons. It is a simple task, a child could do it. (Thus I feel fully qualified)
  As for expecting someone else to do it. NO WAY!! I explained my reason. And I feel telling the story here, and calling Maggville was enough.
  - I understand - Keith944T 04:11:12 02/24/10 (0)
    that the tweet is seperate, I just thought that maybe the repair to fix the stripped hole may require removing the sock.
    
    And I have no doubt you can fix it (never did).
    
    You were obviously wronged by faulty workmanship on a brand new purchase and brought it to our attention.
    
    I was just curious what the Maggie people had to say about the situation and what they offered, if anything, to remedy their mistake?
Screw that! - Norman M 17:52:16 02/23/10 (3)
Magnepan should immediatelty ship out another 3.6R, which they have inspected and found to be perfect. At the same time they should arrange for the pick-up and return of your damaged speakers, at their cost. If you ever chose to sell your damaged speakers you are bound to reveal the nature of the damage which undoubtedly would reduce their value, I wouldn't want to buy them at all. Let Magnepan know to SCREW THAT, if they will!

Edits: 02/23/10
- RE: Screw that! - MaggieLover 22:03:15 02/23/10 (2)
  And there should be universal free healthcare and peace on Earth. But they are not likely to happen either ;-)
  
  Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
  
  Mark
  - Healthcare and warfare, huh? - Norman M 07:45:34 02/24/10 (1)
    Totally irrelevant; one pays their good money for a given product and is entitled to receive such product in perfect undamaged condition; otherwise the transaction is flawed (as are the speakers themselves).
    - RE: Healthcare and warfare, huh? - MaggieLover 11:52:42 02/24/10 (0)
      "Totally irrelevant; one pays their good money for a given product and is entitled to receive such product in perfect undamaged condition; otherwise the transaction is flawed (as are the speakers themselves)."
      
      It was said in jest to point out that getting Magnepan to replace the speakers and ship them for free was as likely to happen as free healthcare and world peace. I have NO political agenda here. At best Magnepan will probably suggest either returning them to the dealer or direct to Magnepan at the owners expense. This is what about 95% or more of companies do when problems exist even as a result of manufacturers defects.
      
      As to your assertion of a flawed transaction when receiving damaged or flawed goods, you're 100% correct. Unfortunately, receiving an item in less than perfect condition these days seems to be extremely common. The manufacture and delivery of flawed or cheapened goods are a reality in a world where large numbers of units of inexpensive goods are demanded by a public willing to either accept or overlook flaws as inevitable.
      
      Whenever I buy household electronics such as broilers or toasters or coffee brewers, I'm always amazed by the number of minor and not so minor flaws that get past their quality control before being shipped. Its also amazing how many "respected" brands do not function as well as you would expect or fail because of some overly thin $.02 piece of plastic. Its an epidemic. As an example, a large number of Frigidaire refrigerators from the 1950's were working well 20, 30, or 40 years later. Some are still working today, but most recent models are not expected to have a life of more than 10-12 years.
      
      I'm sure that for $3500, Magnepan could deliver a pair of 1.6's that would have all the quality anyone on this site would desire, and it would probably still be good value for money. But most current owners would not buy themat that price. The beauty of Magnepan is that they can provide the level of sound they do at the current price points, the occasional flaws aside.
      
      Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
      
      Mark
I feel your pain - E-Stat 15:29:10 02/23/10 (0)
I had a similarly disappointing situation myself. Here I am, anxious as a kid waiting for his new bike when the truck arrived. My face fell when the driver said "I've been dreading this delivery all day". I want to make it clear that in my case it was not the manufacturer's fault - it was some orangutan at the trucking company who drove his forklift through the crates causing damage to both the frames and the panels.

rw
PS What is the underlying panel: MDF, Chipboard, Plywood? - Elizabeth 11:36:23 02/23/10 (2)
I would like to know what the underlying panel is made of. Is it (most likely) Just MDF (Medium density fiberboard) or some kind of plywood?
Helps to know in advance for repair matrials
- Nevermind I called Maggieville and they said MDF - Elizabeth 11:43:53 02/23/10 (1)
  MDF, Never let you Maggies sit in the rain!!!!!!
  - RE: Nevermind I called Maggieville and they said MDF - esande 11:53:53 02/23/10 (0)
    I hope you can find it in yourself to run it up the ladder in Maggieville and dump a serious load of heavy ordinance on them. The underlings don't need to know this, the bosses do. Otherwise it will never be fixed.
RE: My new 3.6'a ribbon screws are screwed: the holes are stripped out - sailor321 11:33:48 02/23/10 (0)
a little wood glue on a couple of toothpicks. If you are careful it will not be noticeable and will hold very well. If you take the ribbon out it will be better
So it goes.........
Make sure whatever fix you apply is reversible. - Al Sekela 10:40:17 02/23/10 (5)
You need to be able to remove the tweeter in the event that it fails.

I agree with you and most of the other posters that this is inexcusable, no matter what the price. The cost of quality is the cost of conformance and the cost of nonconformance (Crosby). Saving a few bucks on employee training usually ends up costing a lot more in rework, repair, and lost customers. The Japanese learned this from W. Edwards Deming. American experts Philip Crosby and Joseph Juran brought the concepts back to American industry. See the link for an interesting perspective on the concept of cost of quality.

Magnepan has survived by shunning the self-destructive fashions in corporate management, but has unfortunately also remained aloof to the useful ideas that would reduce their total costs and improve their customers' satisfaction.
- Godfrey article on the cost of quality (Open in New Window)
- Interesting... - esande 11:43:22 02/23/10 (2)
  I work for a piece of what was the Bell System. Formerly there wasn't much latitude given to not doing it right. As a manager, I've studied the theories you reference. Nice post by the way.
  
  But I think that QC for a small manufacturer is not the same as for a nationwide (or at least regional) federally regulated company. If I screw up too much the Feds are on my back like white on rice.
  
  If Magnepan screws up what are the consequences? Almost zip. Of course people have been pointing out for years here that "you get what you pay for", almost everyone who has taken one apart can describe their choice of materials and maybe their apparent QC level.
  
  But they aren't horribly bad at what they do. I'm enjoying my 1.6s right now. Does Magnepan need better QC? Yes, no question about it.
  
  Are we likely to get it? Obviously talking in here about it for years has had no effect.
  
  What is their warranty return rate? Probably pretty low but we'll never know. I'd be willing to guess that very few of their customers check things like ribbon screw tightness as Elizabeth did.
  
  In the old Bell System we did check that kind of thing, and we still do. But we have the resources to do it. But If I were a line supervisor at Magnepan I would have been fired for allowing those speakers to get out the door.
  - Yes, one of the self-destructive tendencies of big companies - Al Sekela 10:42:35 02/24/10 (1)
    is to over-elaborate what should be a simple thing. I was exposed to the Quality College when I worked for a division of Honeywell. I could see how the concepts were framed to get traction in a large corporate culture. All Magnepan really needs to do is to get a few critical heads extracted from sunshine-deprived places, and boil down the concepts to their own needs. It would cost them almost nothing. I suspect the actual defect rate now is closer to 50%. It could be zero.
    - Good one, Al. LOL - Travis 11:35:19 02/24/10 (0)
      "All Magnepan really needs to do is to get a few critical heads extracted from sunshine-deprived places"
      
      "If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
- That is why I plan on FIXING IT MYSELF!! - Elizabeth 11:32:54 02/23/10 (1)
  Fixing stuff like this is easy. I just have to find the right material to fill the underlying hole and re insert the screws. I want a permanent, fix that leaves it as if new.
  (Like i always change my own car oil, The dealer wants to much money, and the quickie places suck: "Gee lady, your drain plug is stripped.. we can helicoil it for $100." my response: you F#@(&$&@# a$$(*^& did it in the first place. They Say: Nooooo we would NEVER do that. This actually never happened to me because I already know better.)
  The Moral is: you want it done right: DO IT YOUR SELF (if you can)
  - RE: That is why I plan on FIXING IT MYSELF!! - RickeyM 19:11:07 02/23/10 (0)
    A great fix for stripped screw holes in MDF is to drill the hole a out to accept a wooden dowel, 1/4" or 3/8" shold do. Securly glue a piece of dowel in place, cut to size so it fits flush with the surface of the MDF panel. Lay the ribbon in place and mark where to drill a pilot hole in the dowel. Drill pilot holes in the dowels and securely fasten down the ribbons.
    The new hardwood dowels will hold screws better than MDF EVER will and such a repair wil not harm the speakers value at all.
What a drag! You deserve much better QC than that! - Webnick 00:08:25 02/23/10 (33)
Who did you complain to Elizabeth? We've all known that Magnepan puts out a product that uses rather poor materials, but a serious fit and finish issue like that seems out of place for them. They should send you new ones since these are new directly from the factory. Bummer.

PS Where are the pix?
Illegitimus non carborundum.
- We all deserve much better QC than that - Peter Gunn 07:05:08 02/23/10 (31)
  I have been reporting this for some time and every time I do there are people on here who tell me to "shut up" and "stop bashing magnepan" and "you think you're so good" and various other comments which bear no realtion to the issue.
  
  It truly appears to me that magnepans quality control is nothing more than - Does it play? Then ship it. There is not one aspect of their construction I have not yet seen done in a slipshod, poorly executed manner. It's not predictable either because it's not always that way. Now everyone makes mistakes but this kind of stuff should never leave the factory but it always does. They either don't care or they don't inspect anything. Among the issues:
  
  MDF frames made up from broken or "short" pieces
  Not enough staples to hold a driver in
  The staples not bent enough to hold driver in
  Poorly laid voice coil wires
  Barely crimped and loose spade connectors
  Bad connections at the terminals
  Tension buttons so badly applied they
  1 - are not touching the mylar and buzz
  2 - have stretched and crowned the wires leading to delam
  3 - buckled the driver mylar itself
  4 - they have torn the mylar
  Bracing bars put on so badly they soon fall off or arrive that way
  A very sloppy job done applying the coatings
  Actual mis-laid mylar
  And now stripped screws can be added to the list
  
  I think the reason for that is the impenetrable shield of the sock and edge trim and how they now attach both. They figure nobody is ever going to get thru it to look, so what happens underneath is their little secret. In fact sock stapling is the only area they show undue gusto. Those things can withstand a cat 5 huricane.
  
  I really think it's time for the mass appeal letter from us saying we know what's going on and it better stop.
  
  My apologies as well to the OP.
  
  It's all about the music...
  - RE: We all deserve much better QC than that - MaggieLover 22:14:29 02/23/10 (0)
    Tension buttons so badly applied they
    1 - are not touching the mylar and buzz
    
    This is one I can relate to. The tiny machine screw which attaches the tension button through the mylar into one of the holes in the pole piece could not be tightened. The screw was not too small, the hole was too big! I had tp replace the screw with another non-ferrous one of slightly larger diameter to resolve the buzzing which resulted. Based on the design, I would guess that the button screws over time will loosen to one degree or another on a lot of speakers, although it may not alwsys be audible.
    
    Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
    
    Mark
  - Magnepan roulette - mbnx01 10:41:42 02/23/10 (0)
    I received a pair of new MMG's that had white glue all over the FRONT of one of the speakers. It was really a mess. Made me wonder what kind of idiot would look at that and say, 'ok, let's put these in the box and ship them'.
    If that's how they treat the outside of the speakers I'd be afraid to see the inside.
    I owned two pair of MG12's inside of a few years...one pair sounded dramatically better than the other. And this is weird, the pair that didn't sound as good was bought new from a dealer in Minnesota. But when I called White Bear lake they told me that serial number was built over three years ago. NO WAY Magnepan has three years worth of stock. I'd say I got sent someone's b-stock, wouldn't you?
    Buying a new pair of Magnepans? Let's spin the wheel and see what you get.....
    
    "Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
    -Greg House
    
    Edits: 02/23/10
  - Maybe if Magnepan charged their retail price plus.... - stevenk 09:40:01 02/23/10 (24)
    what you charge for your upgrades, they could afford better quality control that you demand. Magnepans are cheap speakers that produce phenomenal sound. By holding costs down, tradeoffs are made. Without them, you'd be out of the speaker upgrade business. Get over it.
    - Excuse Me? - Peter Gunn 15:43:29 02/23/10 (11)
      Who the hell said anything about costs? Are you even bothering to read what we're talking about?
      
      I'm not asking them to spend one damn penny, I'm ASKING them not to completely screw the product up when they make it and then SHIP it that way. If they don't have competent employees then they need to start firing people. There are a lot of people out of work who I am sure would be more than willing to do these jobs right.
      
      If you see this differently somehow, please explain to me what money magnepan saved stripping this customers ribbon screws out?
      
      What money do they save mis-applying tension buttons?
      
      How much extra will it cost them to actually stretch the mylar over the frame properly?
      
      I suppose you think it's OK Toyota sells cars with pedal problems? Why should they spend money to fix that, right? So some kid gets run over, he should just get over it, right?
      
      I can't believe you literally just said you think it's OK for magnepan to sell products that are broken because they are cheap enough. It truly boggles....
      
      It's all about the music...
      - RE: Excuse Me? - esande 18:10:08 02/23/10 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Excuse Me? posted by Peter Gunn on February 23, 2010 at 15:43:29
        
        You're completely right, just calm down.
        
        Nobody has said that they have evil intent.
        
        It's just another factory, actually. Fuckups happen. Maybe they happen too often. I think if what you say is correct they happen too often for an American manufacturer,
        
        It happens way more than would be acceptable in my industry, that's for sure, if your view is correct.
        
        In the USA, we WANT to buy American-made products. I got a pair of really nice boots from Pennsylvania last week. Really nice hand stitched leather waterproof combat boots. You probably know the company, it's in your area. Flawless perfect. And not exorbitant.
        
        It CAN be done right, right here in the USA.
        
        It pleases me to pay American craftsmen a fair dollar for fair work.
        
        But I see no reason to be satisfied with a lesser product.
        
        My standards are high because I entrust my dollars to the best my countrymen can do, I'm not an aristocrat but if I'm paying top dollar I expect the best.
        
        Now Magnepan is not exactky the best. I know that. But bad production mistakes are NOT ACCEPTABLE.
        
        That's all there is too it.
        
        RE: Excuse Me? - Peter Gunn 18:21:52 02/23/10 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Excuse Me? posted by esande on February 23, 2010 at 18:10:08
        
        Why does everyone think I'm not calm?
        
        I'm always calm. I might be PO'd, but I'm calm.
        
        :^ )
        
        I see this stuff way too often, and more people all the time are mentioning it. I have never seen any of these problems on a model made in the 80's however. Never once. That alone speaks volumes.
        
        I have no problem with them using 4 buck inductors, just install the damn thing correctly please...
        
        The pair of MMG's I'm building frames for now has a bad driver. One corner of the mylar is mislaid, quite badly. I'm sick and tired of seeing this.
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        RE: Excuse Me? - stevenk 18:36:19 02/23/10 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Excuse Me? posted by Peter Gunn on February 23, 2010 at 18:21:52
        
        Then mod somebody else's speakers.
        
        RE: Excuse Me? - Peter Gunn 19:21:53 02/23/10 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Excuse Me? posted by stevenk on February 23, 2010 at 18:36:19
        
        Are you shooting for king idiot of the board for the week, or the whole year? Your employer must be damn proud of you if you carry this philosphy to work with you.
        
        Yet you still haven't explained why it's OK for any company to sell "new" products which are already damaged or not made correctly? You can't, you're just a broken record...
        
        Guess what though? It's going to happen to YOU one day. Then it will be a laugh riot.
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        RE: Excuse Me? - stevenk 19:27:34 02/23/10 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Excuse Me? posted by Peter Gunn on February 23, 2010 at 19:21:53
        
        My parents taught me not bite the hand that feeds you.
        
        RE: Excuse Me? - Peter Gunn 20:21:33 02/23/10 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Excuse Me? posted by stevenk on February 23, 2010 at 19:27:34
        
        Awww... now it's homespun wisdoms.
        
        The problem with your little aphorism is it is a contract. The hand feeding you assumes the obligation of making sure the food is edible, does it not? If it tried to feed you poison I think you'd be within your rights to bite it.
        
        This entire argument of excusing the inexcuseable is rediculous. You desperately need to go read some Mark Twain and grow up.
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        RE: Excuse Me? - stevenk 20:51:45 02/23/10 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Excuse Me? posted by Peter Gunn on February 23, 2010 at 20:21:33
        
        Enough with your childish character assasination. Getting back to my first point I merely stated that IMO Magnepan puts out an excellent SOUNDING product at a bargain price by today's standards. Their customer service is A1 and they repair and rebuild 30 year old speakers.
        
        That's good enough for me. If I want high build quality I'll buy
        Wilsons or some other undgodly priced product whose price can justify the labor and high quality control you so desperately demand.
        
        To criticize a company for their business model because it interferes with yours is narcissistic and parasitic. Or here's an idea, take it up with Magnepan. Why preach to the choir? If the product is so poorly built that it makes your job harder, then try a different speaker line man. No one held a gun to your head and said please make these crappy speakers better. We'll all be happier not hearing about it.
        
        This is my opinion and the last time I heard, I have a right to voice it. I used to enjoy this board until it became a bully pulpit for your sermons. I rarely frequent it now but I do still enjoy my Magnepans, warts and all.
        
        RE: Excuse Me? - Peter Gunn 10:22:55 02/24/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Excuse Me? posted by stevenk on February 23, 2010 at 20:51:45
        
        Wow, you clearly have some issues.
        
        "A bully pulpit for your sermons." ??????
        
        Please find me the last thread I started where I preached about anything. And as far as advice I've given to those asking, I am so sorry you know so much that having to read my posts is a waste of your precious time. By all means, stop reading and replying to them, it will do us both a world of good.
        
        As far as making my job "harder", it does nothing of the kind. The speakers are BROKEN moron, THEY CAN'T BE FIXED AND I AM NOT FIXING THEM. This is a quality control issue I can do little to nothing about, other than inform owners their speakers suck. And you this think is MY issue?
        
        Yeah, they'd all be better off playing busted speakers and not having a clue in the world, just like you. Head in the sand, and blissfully ignorant. It's time for your soylent green.
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        Poor quality control is a "Business model?!?" - RickeyM 04:30:31 02/24/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Excuse Me? posted by stevenk on February 23, 2010 at 20:51:45
        
        Poor quality control is an open invitation for the competition to come in and grab some of your market share. See: Japanese auto import industry.
        
        "A gun to his head" but he's Mr. Gunn! (no text) - Hi-fi Nut 22:43:53 02/23/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Excuse Me? posted by stevenk on February 23, 2010 at 20:51:45
        
        x
        
        RE: Excuse Me? - Frank I 19:12:41 02/23/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Excuse Me? posted by stevenk on February 23, 2010 at 18:36:19
        
        LOL
    - Ding! Ding Ding! We have a winner! - mbnx01 10:46:56 02/23/10 (11)
      You know the drill.
      
      "Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
      -Greg House
      - RE: Ding! Ding Ding! We have a winner! - DrChaos 11:27:20 02/23/10 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ding! Ding Ding! We have a winner! posted by mbnx01 on February 23, 2010 at 10:46:56
        
        No, it shouldn't take extraordinary money to fix basic QC.
        
        It mostly takes will and competence. They have good speaker designers, but it doesn't sound like they have good speaker manufacturers.
        
        And it could reduce warranty & service costs.
        
        You've hit the nail on the head, I think - mbnx01 12:22:40 02/23/10 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ding! Ding Ding! We have a winner! posted by DrChaos on February 23, 2010 at 11:27:20
        
        I think they are happy with things as they are. This is just not a company that is open to change. It's that, 'We're perfect here in Minnesota' mentality.
        
        I don't see this improving until they are bought out or current Management retires.
        
        Unfortunately when WD from Magnepan came out here to the forum and wanted to start a dialogue with customers he was chased away by the 'forum police'. Yup, the 'let's beat up the old man who isn't up on internet rules' crowd threw away the best opportunity we'll ever have to have these concerns addressed.
        
        "Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
        -Greg House
        
        RE: You've hit the nail on the head, I think - esande 12:34:15 02/23/10 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You've hit the nail on the head, I think posted by mbnx01 on February 23, 2010 at 12:22:40
        
        I was there. I didn't do any beating, and nobody else did either. All that was being asked was that he register properly as a manufacturer, as I recall. I could be wrong about this.
        Maybe he realized that he'd get all kinds of flack from us, and wisely decided to withdraw. Maybe he did have technical issues. Regardless, he had no obligation to be a participant here.
        Magnepan is a private company and doesn't have to explain its business decisions to stockholders or users. All they do is manufacture and sell speakers. They are quite responsive on the phone and people seem to like the speakers.
        What more do you want (well let's not go into that)?
        
        Edits: 02/23/10
        
        RE: You've hit the nail on the head, I think - Jim Treanor 12:46:44 02/23/10 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You've hit the nail on the head, I think posted by esande on February 23, 2010 at 12:34:15
        
        Maybe he has withdrawn actively here, but I suspect someone there checks in every now and then to see what's going on. If nothing else, I expect that once the 1.7 gets into retail distribution there will be at least a modicum of interest in the feedback from forum members who've either purchased or given it a good listen.
        
        Jim
        http://jimtranr.com/ListeningRoom.html
        
        Edits: 02/23/10
        
        RE: You've hit the nail on the head, I think - esande 13:02:46 02/23/10 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You've hit the nail on the head, I think posted by Jim Treanor on February 23, 2010 at 12:46:44
        
        You're probably right on that, Jim. If I were Magnepan I'd want to know what my customers (and biggest fans) were saying about my product.
        
        WE know that THEY know we're here. And this forum is not exactly private.
        
        I know that G2 is something that every organization does. Magnepan may not think of it in those terms, although they should.
        
        If they hear the message and don't do anything about it it is probably because they don't feel they have to.
        
        If that is the case it's not good.
        
        RE: You've hit the nail on the head, I think - DrChaos 15:31:35 02/23/10 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You've hit the nail on the head, I think posted by esande on February 23, 2010 at 13:02:46
        
        Maybe this will help motivate them:
        
        Hey Magnepan, you have good speaker designers.
        
        But consider the reality of the world:
        
        a) your patents DO expire
        b) Asia manufactures stuff even cheaper than you, and their quality is getting much better faster. And that's because they're not indifferent nor lazy about it.
        
        RE: You've hit the nail on the head, I think - mbnx01 16:17:34 02/23/10 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You've hit the nail on the head, I think posted by DrChaos on February 23, 2010 at 15:31:35
        
        I believe the patents have expired long ago. Anyone could make a Magnepan. I wonder why no one is?
        
        "Lock up when you're done and don't touch the piano."
        -Greg House
        
        Edits: 02/23/10
        
        You are correct - Peter Gunn 18:26:40 02/23/10 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You've hit the nail on the head, I think posted by mbnx01 on February 23, 2010 at 16:17:34
        
        All the patents have expired.
        
        The saddest part is if they open a plant in Dhaojong province and make 8 year old chinese girls build maggie copies they call "Ultra Slim Miracle Big Speaker" the quality control will be tenfold better than what the wetbacks (Redwoods term :^ ) in White Bear Lake turn out.
        
        However, the real question is can they be made even cheaper? That's probably why it's never happened :^ )
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        RE: You are correct - pictureguy 21:21:30 02/26/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You are correct posted by Peter Gunn on February 23, 2010 at 18:26:40
        
        Quality is free. It pays for itself in reduced warranty claims, better customer loyalty, better employee retention and better consistency.
        
        That Magnepan is 'up against the wall' is too bad. If they can turn the quality corner and being a modern, statistically driven program, they can succeed. The use of '6S' principles of workforce and management organization will help them succeed. Management needs to commit to the future.
        
        Quality is an inherent feature of the design an execution and can NOT be 'inspected' in. QC as it is popularly known catches mistakes which should never be made.
        
        Training, specifications of manufacture, proper materials and commitment will help small outfits like Magnepan turn the corner, become more profitable and survive.
        
        This is not a good example of a small company, but Nissan sells fewer (better) cars than in years past and makes more money.
        
        Look at the Wiki article about Kaizen. This is how it all started. While Toyota has really taken a few hits lately, they will bounce back because they have the corporate culture to do so.
        Too much is never enough
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen (Open in New Window)
        
        So called "wetbacks" and quality control (given that you mentioned my name) ... :-)) - andyr 01:48:31 02/24/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You are correct posted by Peter Gunn on February 23, 2010 at 18:26:40
        
        Mr Gunn,
        
        You mentioned that you rarely come across manufacturing defects in Maggies built before the end of the 80s ... yet, nowadays it seems to be endemic.
        
        That is indeed a sad thing but I would suggest that the culprit is not necessarily the worker. After all, the same Turkish migrant worker builds Mercedes in Germany that builts (GM) Holdens in Oz ... yet the Mercedes quality control means that the cars produced in Germany seem to have less faults than those produced in Oz! :-))
        
        So perhaps it all comes down to management philosophy in terms of the "value" of QC? And kaizen. (Was Magnepan pleased to take Elizabeth's call? Did they immediately call a QC meeting about this screw-stripping report?)
        
        Regards,
        
        Andy
        
        RE: So called "wetbacks" and quality control (given that you mentioned my name) ... :-)) - Peter Gunn 05:54:11 02/24/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: So called "wetbacks" and quality control (given that you mentioned my name) ... :-)) posted by andyr on February 24, 2010 at 01:48:31
        
        First off Mr Redwood, that may not have been the best example because I think Mercedes came in last in customer satisfaction and quality last year.... :^ )
        
        All I know is if a thing is made improperly it is ALWAYS the fault of the worker that made it. (Even if it was so because he wasn't trained properly. He still did it.) That said every worker makes errors, even the best of them. It's the responsibility of the company to insure those errors don't make it out the door. Still, things slip by, that's life. But we're talking about visually obvious flaws occuring at an alarming rate.
        
        Your categorization that I am saying problems are endemic now is also not what I said. I said you can get 5 lovely examples and then come across one built by Beavis & Butthead. However I would say this tension button problem appears to be close to becoming a constant concern. I have never seen an older maggie with this issue. Not one, yet it's far too common anymore.
        
        Your last paragraph confuses me. What does it matter if they answer the phone or hold a meeting if the things keep going out the door? Something is rotten somewhere in Denmark. I guarantee if you had gotten the parts for your Frankenpans and they came with buckled drivers and stretched and distorted wires, a pleasant phone call from minnesota wouldn't make it right with you.
        
        Maybe they should move the factory to Alice Springs and you can run it for us. :^ )
        
        It's all about the music...
  - RE: We all deserve much better QC than that - MaggieLover 08:53:12 02/23/10 (1)
    I'm very familiar with the less than stellar construction of the whole line from the MMG's through the 3.6's. But I wonder, do things improve at all with the 20.1s? After all while they are the premiere speaker of the line, and a lot larger than the next biggest model, they do list for 3 times the price of a pair of 3.6s and 6 times the price of a pair of 1.6's/1.7's. Does any of that significantly additional cost result in improved construction quality?
    
    Maggies, because you can never be too thin!
    
    Mark
    - RE: We all deserve much better QC than that - Peter Gunn 09:25:31 02/23/10 (0)
      Something I've noticed that's funny (well, it's not really funny) is they use the same number (or even fewer) staples to hold the driver of the 3.6 in as they do the MMG, even though it is considerably longer.
      
      3 series models with drivers practically falling out is sadly pretty common, and this is what prompted Redwood to add the metal bars he did to his.
      
      I can't imagine things magically improve on the 20.
      
      It's all about the music...
  - RE: We all deserve much better QC than that - thebordas 07:19:32 02/23/10 (1)
    I guess I'm just lucky, because my 3.6's have no issues at all. These issues would indicate however the importance of dealing with a very reputable and responsive dealer.
    dave_b
    - RE: We all deserve much better QC than that - Peter Gunn 07:29:31 02/23/10 (0)
      I have always pointed that out. I'll get one pair and everything is perfect, and the next pair is a train wreck. There's no rhyme, reason, or predicting it and this is an issue beyond dealer control.
      
      It's speaker Russian roulette. There are a lot of blanks, but there's a bullet in there somewhere and somebody is going to get it, you can count on it.
      
      It's all about the music...
- I agree - neolith 05:28:20 02/23/10 (0)
  Obviously, it is easy to overdrive the screws into the MDF frame but the assemblers at Magnepan should be aware of this and have turned down the torque control on the powered screwdrivers. I have ~20 yr old MIIIa's and have removed the tweeters several times to make mods and the screws are still tight. At ~$4000 per pair, they need to make it right.
  �
  
  I plan to procrastinate my demise for as long as possible. In the meantime, I practice by putting off all the little stuff.
  
  Edits: 02/23/10
That is verrry disappointing. :-(( I wonder whether they appreciated getting your call?? ... - andyr 23:23:13 02/22/10 (0)
They should have ... in the spirit of "kaizen". :-))

Mebbe it's now time to take the socks off, so you can be duly horrified at the primitive method Magnepan use to secure the bass/mid panel to the frame. :-))

Regards,

Andy
You go girl!! - stevenk 20:45:26 02/22/10 (5)
Probably exactly what happened. If you pull the loose ones out and squirt some Loktite in, then put them back, they should hold OK.
steve
- RE: You go girl!! - pictureguy 21:11:28 02/26/10 (4)
  Take it from someone who was in hi-rate / hi-pressure manufacturing for 30+ years.
  Quality is not 'inspected in' or 'reworked in'. It is built in from the beginning.
  Rework and inspection is (almost) a waste of time in a properly running facility where everyone knows there job and has been trained properly. Where Specifications on operations are documented and known. Where Statistical Process Control is used to monitor the line. Where any deviations will result in first, a reaction than a corrective action. Specifications will be altered to change to the procedure in question if it was wrong.
  People work well in an enviroment where expectations are known and doable and where each employee is given the tools to do his or her job and the training to do so. Leadership must be front line and active.
  
  Anyway, from the look of Magnepan shipped quality issues they are running a real behind the times operation using poor technique. That good stuff gets out of the plant means that while the design may be 'budget', the product performs and can, if built to specification, do its job.
  
  Too much is never enough
  - RE: You go girl!! - esande 22:16:03 02/26/10 (3)
    Yes what you say is correct. As long as the design is good, the techniques are good, the expectations and requirements are clear, and the management is engaged the product should be good. Unfortunately it isn't.
    
    My organization is TL9000 compliant (the ISO equivalent but in telecommunications). We are very good but we still have a failure rate.
    
    Not high but still measurable. And we've been doing this since 1896. Nothing is perfect, nothing. There is always pressure to reduce costs and do more with less. That is the nature of the model. My view is that from a management standpoint Magnepan can accept a higher failure rate than I can afford in my business.
    
    If my network drops below a certain metric in any number of measures I get sanctioned. Magnepan faces no such regulation. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm a government contractor, and not a low bidder. Yes I trade on my reputation and so does Magnepan. But Magnepan doesn't have to prove their worth to anyone but individual clients, unlike me. Much less with ISO/TL compliance statistics.
    
    But they have to prove their worth to us, the clients.
    
    They basically rely on word of mouth. It seems insane to base reputation on that in the age of the Internet, when a boatload of information is available, albeit anecdotal, as to transgressions both large and small.
    
    But the word continues to be that yes, they do eff up regularly on the line. But that's lost in the noise of "Wow, those speakers sound great!"
    
    And "Boy do they honor that warranty!"
    
    But it's an effed up model because most people aren't capable of seeing the flaws that do exist. Certainly you've heard of stonewalling problems. Well, Magnepan does that in a best-cost model. They staple the problems under the rug. If that sounds cynical it's because I'm a realist.
    
    Well, guess what. It's nothing new. How many problems does Toyota sweep under the rug? I trust a Japanese apology about as far as Pearl Harbor.
    
    I count on Magnepan to do the right things in manufacturing, and they are hard things, about as much as I trust any unaccountable corporate entity to do anything responsible.
    
    That is, probably not very far.
    
    :-)
    - RE: You go girl!! - pictureguy 22:30:52 02/26/10 (2)
      I've been in hi-tech cleanroom manufacturing semiconductors for a LONG time.
      The start material alone is worth over 100$ per slice. (6" epitaxial silicon wafer) and is worth a bunch as sometimes hundreds of finished parts.
      Point is that we sure hat throwing something in the trash after the product is being tested and you discover something fundamental was done wrong or omitted altogether way back in the line.
      
      Magnepan needs to adopt a serious attitude.
      I'm thinking of flying up there and volunteering my services. I am 6S certified and have worked as a manufacturing process technician in semiconductor house for over 20 years. Degreed engineers would shut up and listen to me. I'd slap 'em around and they'd like it.
      We were not only ISO but had certs from car manufacturers and mil spec. Our spec was our final arbiter. I walked more independent auditors around than you'd believe. We said what we would do and did what we said. Magnepan is obviously run on the back-slap, mom and pop level.
      Too much is never enough
      - RE: You go girl!! - esande 23:04:09 02/26/10 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You go girl!! posted by pictureguy on February 26, 2010 at 22:30:52
        
        We don't do anything on the cheap either in my shop. Believe me I know what it takes to do what it takes, I've been in my industry for 26 years. I went from being an operator to being a manager through many intermediate capacities in those years. I've done everything it takes to become an expert in a very challenging field. I can't believe they can't put a screw in right after 30+ years in business.
        
        If I did that stuff in the Bell System I'd be talking to you from a pay phone in the Union Mission.
        
        But the fact of the matter is that they don't HAVE to be accountable.
        
        As long as the status quo is acceptable from an accounting and a customer satisfaction standpoint, and it is, they don't have to do anything about it.
        
        Only until people stop buying the product, which is unlikely, or until the reviews turn bad, which they won't. The reviewers are besotted with the product because all they have to do is listen to it, it's cheap favorable publicity. And I don't necessarily disagree with that.
        
        What I do disagree with is the lack of response to the really scathing reports of bad product coming from WBL. Either of us could deal with that issue but I don't see them hiring you or me at our regular rates and giving us contracts real soon now.
        
        :-)
        
        RE: You go girl!! - pictureguy 00:07:52 02/27/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You go girl!! posted by esande on February 26, 2010 at 23:04:09
        
        Agreed on all points.
        
        I wish they'd do better.
        
        The way one wag at work put was.... 'If we made cookies, we'd be killing people'.
        Too much is never enough

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