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Back to single cam, and four valves as used in their race bikes long ago.
Way overdue improvements to suspension too.
Follow Ups:
Just one thing- it's an engine not a motor. A motor is electric. I know that people use the word motor all the time, but it's incorrect.
Engining down the E1 in my BEW the other day... :)
I have to agree with your premise, however we have "motors" on motorcycles and "motors" on boats....
Go figure...
Big football weekend coming up!
Will
In their broadest definitions, a "MOtor" is anything that induces *MOtion* or provides *MOtive power* and an "engine" is any device used to facilitate a process.
Casual conversation is the most useful kind. Let the specialists tear their hair out and break their nails, I could care less.
I'm very relaxed and sorry that I posted. People get worked up about this stuff. I will continue to call electric motors motors and internal combustion engines engines, and let others call a cat a dog if they want. It's not important.
"Relax"? It's just a figure of speech, but I'm sure you get the idea.
Edits: 09/15/16
"Just one thing- it's an engine not a motor. A motor is electric. I know that people use the word motor all the time, but it's incorrect. "
I sort of agree srdavis2000, but that is not the perfect definition. In fact even Webster's can't really figure it out. I could be said that the operation of a motor is reversible, that it will act as a generator if the shaft is turned, and that is one of the real qualifications. My family made the distinction but it was still not crystal clear. (we were car folk) When you told my Father you needed a motor he said "What, a wiper motor, starter motor or what ?". This is a guy who built a 283 with a Racer Brown roller cam that could do over 9,000 RPM.
But being reversible is not the whole story, and actually things have changed and you can't really count on words. Most electric motors of the old days would generate. But now they got electronically controlled brushless slotless motors that would only do that if redesigned to do so, and they do use permanent magnets so it can be done. The generator in an old car could be modified to be a motor. Electromagnetically induced motors (like a series or parallel wound) can be slightly modified to be generators, but PM motors do it already. It is reversible, you can turn the shaft and make electricity or put in electricity and make the shaft turn.
Note that these conditions are not absolute, but to call an internal combustion engine a motor implies that if you pumped exhaust into the tailpipe it would put gasoline back in the tank. I think that is the best explanation I can think of. Also what is Google ? Is it a search motor ? Can you put in a bunch of websites and have it output the keywords used to find them ? Nope. That is why it is not called a search motor.
Stuff like this is the intricacy of the language that any people do not understand. for example, what does "American" mean ? Most people take it to mean a US Citizen not realizing that Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians, Colombians are all also Americans. I am in some political groups and someone invented the term "USians" which I use. One guy said it was derogatory but he is wrong. I am a USian. Like some politicians want to keep illegal Mexicans out of "America", that is illogical because they are already in America.
Like in electronics, they say that like if your speakers are out of "phase" they put out sound 180 out of phase. they taught this i the schools and I had to correct them. The only time out of phase looks the same as opposite polarity is when you are dealing with a perfect sine wave. Try it with a sawtooth :
/|_/|_/|_
180 out of phase is :
_/|_/|_/
But opposite polarity is
\|_|\_|\
Totally different, try to design a switched mode power supply without knowing that, or any type of PWM circuit. And I knew that before I went to my first electronics class.
Many word are used wrong. But sometimes it is a matter of convenience.
Like they say African American to mean Black people. They do not say Kenyan USian or Libyan USian. It simplifies things. But it also distorts or obscures the meaning of what we want to say at times.
Now with internet acronyms it has gotten way worse. We need a new dictionary, or at least a compendium of the things like "LOL" and all that. Actually they are out there but they need to be updated about weekly because people are always coming up with new ones.
Anyway, Re the OP here (I really meant to earlier but...)all this ten valves and all that shit did not do that much, did it ? You still got overlap and the possibility of valve float. Now they are introducing engines with variable valve timing, and that is the way to go. I have experimented with that personally and it is the cat's ass when it comes to getting a wider torque range. They CAN go back to a single cam and only two valves per cylinder and with VVT can outperform five valve engines of the same displacement, and even run cleaner. And usually cleaner means more efficient.
There have been some schemes that vary the oil pressure to the lifters to increase duration at higher RPMs but those, well, I wouldn't want one. I do not like the concept. All that valve lash at lower RPMs ad then pump them up until what, they smack the pistons and you need a rebuild. Buncha shit as far as I am concerned.
Thing is, I still want a 1967 Chevy because they insist on putting Windows on cars. I am so close to dumping windows I can smell Linux at the front door. And the few cars of the 1980s I liked fell apart. I had two nice Buicks and the engines fell out of both of them because of frame rot. I don't like Fords, I was offered a 2006 Taurus with flex fuel ad a brand new transmission for free and I said no. And I will not drive a Chrysler product. It doesn't matter much because I wouldn't drive that much, I can't drive in bright sunlight or in the dark or when it is raining and this is Ohio. It is always too bright dark or raining here, that is just how the climate is. We only got three seasons here. Snow, rain and road construction. The state flag is the "ROAD CONSTRUCTION" sign, the state tree is the orange barrel and the state flower is the orange cone.
Very interesting thoughts on our language, thank you.
As far as Harley Davidson, I was kind of poking fun at their marketing savvy and should have said so.
When the twin-cam came out it was claimed that it improved pushrod geometry (which it did) but now we're back to the original design.
Overlap is a desirable and controllable perimeter of valve timing, enabling exhaust gas to assist with drawing intake air/fuel mix into the cylinder, although a carefully designed intake and exhaust system are required to get real benefit.
Valve float is minimized in four valve designs because smaller valves can be actuated more accurately at higher rpm than single larger valves.
Variable Valve Timing, first used in 1980 by Alfa Romeo and perfected by Honda has been standard equipment on mundane vehicles such as the Toyota Camry for several years and is much more useful to the average motorists (engineist?) than a five valve design.
I think these welcome improvements are in response to competition from Victory and further improvements will surface when deemed necessary.
Check out the variable valve lift system as used by BMW that provides throttling and reduced parasitic loss at cruse rpm.
Still waiting for an all electric, fully variable lift, and timing, solenoid based, parasitic free valve train myself.
This was once written about in the letters section of a car magazine many years ago.
The editor's reply was "when Cale Yarborough stops saying we blew the motor" we'll stop using the word motor too.
Great, now you tell me ,I just bought a case of motor oil to put in my motorcycle for my trip to Detroit "the motor city"
"Great, now you tell me ,I just bought a case of motor oil to put in my motorcycle for my trip to Detroit "the motor city" "
You can put it in a motor. You can also put it in an engine.
I think they used "motor city" just because "engine city" sounds stupid.
And I know they were called motorcars but that is no excuse.
I know that engine and motor have been used interchagibly for some time now, but a motor is an electric motor, and a gas driven device is an engine (internal combustion engine). Some of the more modern autos get complicated using both.
I used the terms interchangibly until an engineering professor set me straight many years ago.
Here is the definition of 'motor' from the Oxford English Dictionary:
"NOUN
1A machine, especially one powered by electricity or internal combustion, that supplies motive power for a vehicle or for another device with moving parts:
these electric motors are highly reliable
the sander has a smooth and powerful 520 watt motor
More example sentences
1.1A source of power, energy, or motive force:
hormones are the motor of the sexual functions
More example sentences
2British informal A car:
we drove out in my motor"
Other dictionaries have virtually the same definition but I'm sure they'll happily change their definitions of 'motor' when you tell them some engineer once told you so.
Either way almost all languages other than English only have the word 'motor' ie the italian translation of 'engine' is motore, the german one is motor, same as spanish and so on.
In the engineering world a motor is electric and an engine is an internal combustion device. I think that I noted that language has been used to the point of blurring the distinction. I'm sorry I mentioned it.
Definitely better but still.... I love how the counterbalancer that eliminated all the vibration was rejected and one that takes seventy five percent of the vibration was OKd by test groups.
With all this you still have a very heavy bike that doesn't handle well even with those suspension improvements. I'm not in to Japanese sport bikes but will take a BMW standard or Ducati Monster, both twins, over a Harley any day for performance and reliabilty. Cruisers don't handle and Harleys maximum lean angles is too low. That is something that may be needed by a rider to escape a dangerous situation.
But let there be no doubt Harley is the king of resale value and trailered miles.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
builds in NVH. :)
I rode my Harley up to Laconia NH with some friends in June to attend my first bike week in thirty years. We rode 1,003 miles the first day, so not everybody trailers them. The other guys I rode with all had Harleys too, and none of us had any issues riding up, or back (about 2,600 miles total). A couple of the same guys I rode to Laconia with rode to Colorado and back the following month. No reliability issues on that 3,500 mile round-trip run either.
"...but will take a BMW standard or Ducati Monster, both twins,over a Harley any day for performance and reliabilty [sic]"
I've owned my 2005 Electra Glide for eleven years now, since it was new. I've not spent one penny on repairs, other than routine maintanence (tires, oil changes, brake pads, etc.), and changes I've chosen to make, such as a different exhaust, and hotter cams. I sent an oil sample into Blackstone Labs from my last change, and they gave the engine a clean bill of health. No abnormal wear evident in the oil. And speaking of oil, my Harley hasn't leaked a drop. Not when I bought it, and not now, eleven years later.
I'll agree with you about foreign bike performance, generally no argument there. But with around 50,000 miles on my bike, I haven't even had to replace a single light-bulb. You're still talking the same trash about Harley reliability you learned forty years ago, when it was much more deserved then it is today.
When you're ready to ride again E, let me know. I'd love to take a ride with you. I'll even ride up your way to do it, if my bike can make it that far without breaking down, I mean!
I think HD went thru a VERY low period when owned by AMF.
Too much is never enough
AMF simply bought the sinking ship.
When I ride my 1973 Shovelhead to an event, weekend warrior HD riders (think Wild Hogs movie types) will ask me if it was one of the AMF years (it was). As soon as they hear that they'll invariably start trashing AMF, almost acting surprised that my bike runs, and that I've had it for the last 39 years.
I explain to them that if it wasn't for AMF's influx of cash, they wouldn't be dressing like pirates and riding new Harleys. AMF's finances allowed HD to hire more engineers, buy new equipment, and slowly overcome their quality issues.
As an admirer of American Capitalism, I have flag-waving admiration for how far Harley has Phoenixed from their former ashes. On the other hand, the old-school biker in me is somewhat embarrassed to go into one of their Neon and Mirrors Boutique T-shirt shops they call a dealership.
Can't have it all, I guess.
I had a friend who was an REAL 'outlaw' biker. Part of my education was to learn the correct order of manufacture of the various HD engines. I was a wedding photographer for several of their 'events'.
He had a non-running Panhead in his garage that quite a number of collectors / restorers wanted.
That you've got a runner is terrific.
Answer a question, if you can? Why did HD stop making the EVO engine?
My buddy also had mixed feelings about what he called RUBS = Rich Urban BikerS
Harley Stores are like Disneyland for RUBS. All that counterculture 'vibe' with an overlay of pure capitalism and aggressive markup on parts and 'goodies'.
Too much is never enough
I read your question before I went out tonight, but thought I'd give some thought to my reply. I was going to comment about some of the supposed technological improvements of the Twin Cam over the EVO.
But I also had another motive in waiting to reply. I knew I was going to be seeing one of my friends when I went out. He too is a REAL biker, much like the friend you described, one who wears a real poncho, as opposed to a Sears poncho, if you're into Frank Zappa references.
He's been a Harley mechanic for 35+ years, and I wanted his take on your question. His simple answer was that few, if any parts from the Evo are interchangeable with the Twin Cam motors. The TC motors are more complicated, require more specialized tools, and are less reliable (with a nod to Awe-d-o-file) than Evo engines.
Curious, I did a bit of searching when I got home tonight, and found the article linked below. I learned a few things from it, if you're really interested in a more detailed answer.
What makes one biker more REAL than another biker? I can believe that you are a true and "real biker" so I'd like to hear it from you first.I've sensed how bikers, especially HD riders, have evolved since the 1960's and 1970's, but I would have a hard time putting my observations and feelings about this phenomena into words.
Any help and insight here would be appreciated.
Edits: 09/15/16
If you have to ask, you haven't been paying attention for the last 30 years.
REAL bikers know how to work on their bikes and DO. All the real bikers I've met have been high function individualists. One was an amazing ballroom dancer, another spoke 5 languages. One massive guy was now a minister and presided over a wedding I photographed. All real bikers have prison stories. Or Brush with the law stories. One wedding I photographed had FBI 'in attendance' whom I photographed much to their chagrin. I was using Kodak TMZ @6400ISO and a 1.4 lens.
Most 'real' bikers have Tatoos. Some even say stuff like 'FTW' or related.
They are also, from what I saw, respectful to their elders and behaved themselves at the weddings I shot. Only ONE guy gave me any problems when he caught the garter and didn't want his photo taken. I think he was Fresh Out and still a little touch. I had my guy speak to him and we were OK after that. Just don't push it.
I don't think most 'RUBS' would pass the physical. Just LOOK at the corporate HD stores. Like DisneyLand for guys with too much cash. Real 'biker' stores are a little edgier and it helps to know what you want.
Too much is never enough
"All real bikers have prison stories."
Yeah, but not always them themselves. I know a biker who is an HVAC tech at a major university.
So the broad walks into a biker bar and wants to joint the gang. The leader say "Do you smoke ?" and she replies "A pack of Camels a day and a cigar after I eat dinner". He asks "Do you drink ?" and she replies "Sure do, beer and whiskey, none of that mamby pamby wine shit or coolers".
Then he asks "Ever been picked up by the fuzz ? and she replies "No but I've been swung around by the nipples a couple of times".
.
.
.
.
I hope they let her in the gang, she sounds like alot of fun.
There are a lot of opinions about what a "real biker" is, and no conclusive answers, because it's subjective. I could create a post in General, asking what a "real audiophile" is, and I'm betting I'd get a hundred different answers on that topic too.
I wrote "REAL biker" in response to Pictureguy's post where he used the term, except that I omitted his use of the word 'outlaw'. His "REAL 'outlaw' biker" conjured up a picture in my head, and I think I had a pretty good idea of the kind of people who were at the events he photographed. That image is what I think of when I think of "real bikers".
Your perception of REAL biker, or REAL 'outlaw' biker might be totally different than mine. I could give you my opinion of what the term means to me, but it would be just that, only my opinion. If you'd like me to do that, I'd be happy to.
Thanks for the response.I have no firm idea of what a REAL biker might be. I've never been into street motorbikes in a serious way and I've never belonged to a motorbike club of any kind, so my knowledge and perceptions are of course limited.
I would tend to assume that a REAL biker is one who has, over time, grown into the real biker culture somehow - and who is also the type that has no desire to ever stop being a biker. But as to what a "REAL biker" might actually be like, I have little or no clue.
Tell me what YOU think a "REAL biker" is and I'd be more than happy to leave it at that.
Edits: 09/15/16 09/15/16
I'm going to give you my impression of what a real biker is by way of an analogy, but I'm not implying it's definitive, simply because the subject is so ambiguous.
I don't consider myself a Grateful Dead fan. I like a couple of their studio songs, but that's about it. My perception of a real Dead fan would be one who bought many of their albums, had some of their bootleg tapes, and went to see the band when it came to their city. Maybe they even traveled to several nearby cities to catch more shows on the tour.
But then there's the Deadheads. The people who somehow traveled everywhere the band went, camping, actually doing the recording of the bootleg tapes. Their friends were mostly Deadheads too.
The fan's life is enhanced by their enjoyment of the band, but for the latter group, the band was their life.
Deadheads are similar to how I perceive "real" bikers, with regard to level of passion and commitment. I hope the analogy makes some sense to you. Or, another way I think of it is to use Justice Stewart's vague definition of obscenity: "I know it when I see it."
Because I grew up in the 1950s and 1960s, when Pictureguy said, "REAL 'outlaw' biker" in his post, this was the image which immediately came to my mind's eye. Life magazine's photos of California counter-culture, circa 1965.
I think I know what you mean now.
Great pics!
The guys I knew would NOT hang with the H-A group at all. A few minor disagreements over the years and a difference of opinion about what 'class' meant.
A few other issues NOT suitable for a pubic forum But the pictures get it done.
Too much is never enough
"His simple answer was that few, if any parts from the Evo are interchangeable with the Twin Cam motors. The TC motors are more complicated, require more specialized tools, and are less reliable (with a nod to Awe-d-o-file) than Evo engines."
If H-D truly ceased production of the Evo motor because it was too simple, too easy to repair, and too reliable, then what you have is a conspiracy theory.
With the factory now building Twin Cam motors with 40 or 50 percent larger displacements than the largest factory Evos, I think there's an alternative explanation, which your article advances:
"The early Twin Cams were originally built as a platform to more power. To this end the new cases were designed to more easily accept the installation of larger displacement cylinders and pistons than Evo designs. From the gate one could buy an 88 inch motor and then bolt a factory made 95 inch kit directly up with little to no fuss or hassle."
Although I think that displacement wars are silly, and I'm satisfied with my Stage 1 Twin Cam 88B-equipped FLSTF, I don't consider my bike "overpowered." So, I'm sure that there are guys out there who can totally justify a 96, 103, 110 and up.
I see it more as planned obsolesce, which seems to be common practice in all facets of manufacturing in today's marketplace.
The Evo helped redeem Harley's reputation of poor reliability. The Twin Cam began to address the engine's performance issues.
You'll note in my post that my experience with the reliability of my Twin Cam 88 is without complaint. Would I like it to be faster? Sure, but not at the expense of reliability. Everything's a trade-off.
...........riders in my neck of the woods referred to them as "Hardly Abelsons".
Not so much anymore. They've come a long way since then.
But they still produce too many two-wheeled Buicks for the riders in the cafe racer set to take them seriously.
"Two-wheeled Buicks", love it!
No, the cafe racers don't take them seriously. But then I wouldn't want to spend 17 hours in the saddle on a cafe racer, the way I did with my Buick on the trip from SC to New England a few months ago.
Apples to oranges, to be sure.
Tell me about it :-)
I rode a '67 Norton P11 from 1967 (when I bought it new off the dealer's floor) through 1982 when I sold it to a collector due to the extreme difficulty of finding replacement parts that were any good.
I lived in Boulder, CO and used to ride with a loosely organized bunch known locally as the "Boulder Crazies" that consisted of over a dozen gear heads who rode a diverse sampling of bikes including Triumphs, Beezers, Nortons, HD's, Ducati's, and even a lone Honda CB750 ;-)
We used to hang out at Shannon's bar on Pearl Street in Boulder and on weekends we'd race up Boulder Canyon to the Pioneer bar in Nederland, a trip of a little more than twenty miles. By the time we arrived in Nederland I could barely feel my hands and feet due to the vibration from that solid mounted 750 in my Norton. It was so bad, my hands were so numb that I could barely feel the cigarette between my fingers and could hardly light it. Then out came the tools needed to tighten the things that vibrated loose during the ride before I could go inside the bar to drink a beer or three.
Back then, some of the Harleys were even worse!
I recently had the pleasure to ride a new Harley Sportster that one of my neighbor's kids came home with. All I can say is that I wish that our bikes were so smooth and comfortable back in the day.
Ride safe,
SB
I was looking at a Norton Commando and Harleys around 1974, trying to decide. I talked to a few guys, and as it would be on this forum for hi-fi gear, suggestions were mixed.
Then a neighbor let me take his Harley around the block, and that was it, I was getting one.
My Shovel shakes a whole lot more than my Twin Cam, and doesn't perform nearly as well. But every time I ride it I still get a big grin on my face.
Thanks for sharing your Boulder Crazies story. Sounds like a fun bunch of guys!
I saw this the other week - the guys has skills, and balls!
Cheers,
John K
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