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In Reply to: RE: A dim wit and a weasel, that I am posted by unclestu52 on July 26, 2007 at 13:35:17
That's comforting to know as there are more than 70 PWB products. I'm betting you were thinking the number was somewhat less than that. :-)
~ Cheerio
Edits: 07/26/07Follow Ups:
I have explained my postion many times. If have not tried it myself, I avoid comment, I have not tried everything, and with some things I have tried, I get negative or no results. Is that so complicated, and are you claiming to be able to read my mind? Betcha you wouldn't be able to know what I am thinking right now. Again, I have never claimed to be omniscient (you can ask Clark about that one....8^) ). I was simply restating the obvious.
Oh yeah, tried your clock on the window sill of an open window. Sounded worse than in the center of the floor in front of the amp.
Stu
I try not to generalize too much regarding results, esp. negative results.
That was no generalization, merely an observation. I was assuming your recommendation of the window sill was a generalization, though. But again, no biggie. In fact,if you notice, I generally post posiive rather than negative results.The way things have been getting recently, frankly, disgusts and offends my thinking. While I certainly appreciate the civility you and May have extended towards me, others have disintegrated into diatribes I really abhor. The fact that they were not always aimed at me still upsets my sensibilities. We all can disagree but still do so in a civilized manner.
Think I'll simply drop out of further discussions on the subject.
Stu
Not that I really matter in the big scheme of things, but locally I do and I'm getting more interested in arriving at a conclusion concerning things "Beltist".
Your success with the clock, which is ostensibly one of them, has piqued my interest. I can't afford to buy one at this point, but hope to satisfy at least some of my curiosity with some controlled testing on the cheap.
Your experiences are very valuable to me as I believe them to be the most dispassionate and unbiased ones being posted.
Regards, Rick
> > > "Think I'll simply drop out of further discussions on the subject" < < <
It is a pity unclestu because I feel you are quite close to getting to the quite revolutionary point (in audio terms) which we reached over 25 years ago. But, I feel it will only happen when you do some experiment which you CANNOT explain in any of the conventional ways you have been doing so far. Only when it actually happens to you will you begin to realise that "there is something else going on" which cannot be explained from within conventional electronic or acoustic theories - no matter how much one stretches, pulls, pushes, squeezes them to try to make sense of what you are hearing.
I have seen your latest responses on Tweakers Asylum re 'degaussing'.
Quote from your response in Tweakers Asylum section.
> > > "Yeah, I know it sounds pretty bizarre, but at least I am not claiming 'morphic' resonances here. In my experiences, magnetism is a an often overlooked factor in many electronics: not simply from an actual magnet but also by induction. Small field build up can affect the significantly larger fields, like a cartridge. If you have a powerful enough degausser, try degaussing a TT platter (I hear positive effects from doing it to an LP-12 aluminum platter and even to VPI acrylic platters !)." < < <
Followed by cheap-Jack's response :-
> > > "So to claim applying a strong magnetic field by using a demagnetizer on a PVC record is a parapsychological effect, like unfounded sonic improvment by some rainbow films & by freezing a picture, & the likes." < < <
The response by cheap-Jack to your experiences is similar to the responses we get to our experiences i.e it MUST be parapsychological. I, you (and many others) know that your experience (and ours) is NOT parapsychological - the point where I differ from you is not regarding your observations and experiences but regarding the explanations as to why.
If you have tried 'treating' (by degaussing) the aluminium platter of the LP-12 and gained an improvement in the sound I think you would find that this is a similar improvement we (and others) gain from 'treating' the platter of the LP-12 (but we do NOT do it by degaussing). Try the experiment of degaussing the aluminium platter of a PASSIVE LP-12 - just sitting passively on a shelf (not connected into the AC supply or to the audio system) and THEN explain any positive effects in the sound you gain !!!
Ditto with the acrylic platter. Try the experiment of degaussing the acrylic platter of a PASSIVE turntable - just sitting passively on a shelf (not connected into the AC supply or to the audio system) and THEN explain any positive effects in the sound you gain !!
Your conventional explanation to do with degaussing a vinyl record seems to be to do with 'having an effect on the stylus/cartridge' and therefore on the audio signal ----------->
> > > "Since they claim there is momentary melting when the stylus runs through the vinyl: that, coupled with the strong magnetic field of the cartridge will, I suspect, slowly reorient the polar molecules over time and repeated play. Applying a degausser will partially return the vinyl to an amorphous state, instead of having a magnetic orientation which can create induction." < < <
I.e 'something affecting the audio signal'. But, how would you explain 'something affecting the audio signal' when there is NO audio signal being picked up by a passive stylus/cartridge/turntable ?
20 years ago we were demonstrating 'treating' passive turntable platters (aluminium/acrylic/glass/epoxy type/you name it) on turntables just sitting passively on a shelf and improving the sound to the amazement of all concerned - retailers, reviewers, manufacturers, distributors.
Your reply to kenster was also quite illuminating !!
> > > "Try using the demagnetizer with the record in the sleeve or even in the jacket. The AC field will reach the vinyl. I normally use a hand held Geneva which claims to have a strength of 2800 gauss, the strongest (they claim) for a hand held unit." < < <
I would suggest you try another PASSIVE experiment. Try the experiment of taking the vinyl record OUT of it's jacket and demagnetising only the jacket cover, then listen and you will experience an improvement in the sound by merely having demagnetised the vinyl's jacket cover !!!!!!! Explain THAT !!
I like your reply to cheap-Jack regarding him having a negative experience with such as the demagnetising procedure :-
> > > "Obviously your experience was negative. My experiences have not been negative at all, and others who have tried it report similar results to mine. I will not speculate as to why your experience was so negative," < < <
I think I would like to copy that response as my general reply to everyone who asks ME why they are not able to hear what we and many others can hear.
Regards,
May Belt.
Hi May,
I very much enjoy your posts, and would like to try and discover if I can hear the effect of "treating" things in the room not directly in the audio chain.
I've been following the threads, read your website and contemplated the info. I guess you could call me a hard-bitten engineer and as such am very sensitive to the importance of conducting experiments properly to try and "get a handle" on what's happening. You've experience is in the same vein so you know the importance of correlating cause and effect by trying to change only a single variable at a time and evaluating the result. A key issue is being able to reset the variable to avoid confusing interactions.
Most of what I've read so far concerning the application of your discoveries don't provide much useful information. ("you just have to try everything", seems to be the result.) Except for Stu, no one seems to be trying to control the experiments. So I'm looking for no more than three things I can try that tend to have the grossest effect. And are resettable. Is there one or more of your free tweaks that you would suggest as the most obvious, reliable and resettable?
You repeatedly mention treating identical or similar devices to the operating ones as proof that something unusual is happening. Does that similarity have an effect on the outcome or is it just an attempt at consistency? For instance I have a power amp sitting around with a steel case but not being used. If I degauss it or align it's screws or paste a sticky note on it with a positive thought will that be more likely to affect my perception than doing the same thing with a steel strongbox?
Finally I have an unrelated question: Since you have made it clear that what is affected is the listener, why not treat the listener directly? I'd be tickled to have a pin or tie-bar that would make things sound better. I could even use it at the symphony.
While I'm unimpressed with the extent explanations, that doesn't mean that the effect may not be real. Like you, I'm also unimpressed with the majority of the the extent explanations on AA. So what? I've found any number of things in my life that have proven true despite having iffy explanations.
Thanks, Rick
Rick, There is no one a more ' hard-bitten engineer' than Peter !!
> > > "So I'm looking for no more than three things I can try that tend to have the grossest effect. And are resettable. Is there one or more of your free tweaks that you would suggest as the most obvious, reliable and resettable? " < < <
It is extremely difficult to suggest which of our free tweaks would be guaranteed to give the 'grossest', 'most obvious or reliable' effect. People react differently to different things. Some swear by the beneficial effect of placing a plain piece of paper under one of the four feet of a piece of equipment (I would emphasise - under ONE of the FOUR feet - not under one of three feet or under one of five feet but under one of four feet !!). But some might not hear the beneficial effect of tying a Reef knot in a cable (again I would emphasise it must be a Reef knot, not a Granny knot or any other knot). Others might not hear the effect of the plain piece of paper under one of the four feet but have Reef Knots tied in as many cables (all over the house) as possible to great beneficial effect. Others hear both 'tweaks' and many of the other 'tweaks'. It is not possible to guarantee which will have the grossest effect but most of our free tweaks can be removed (take you back to square one) so you can do before, after and back to before listening experiments. Another peculiarity is the following. Sometimes people THINK they might have heard an improvement in the sound but are not sure until as soon as they remove the particular 'tweak' and listen again, they cringe at their sound because it is perceived as much worse!! They then realise that the improvement in the sound HAD been there, but they had not been absolutely sure, had been uncertain, until they had removed the beneficial 'effect'.
> > > "You repeatedly mention treating identical or similar devices to the operating ones as proof that something unusual is happening. Does that similarity have an effect on the outcome or is it just an attempt at consistency?" < < <
The similarity is mainly to do with consistency. If you believe that some 'treatment' is to do with RF interference or EMI or static (affecting the signal going through the equipment) and you do the same 'treatment' on a passive but NON identical piece of equipment and get a similar effect - there will always be someone who will claim that the result of the experiment is null and void because the NON identical piece of equipment might be quite different in other respects and THAT difference would account for an effect.
Referring to some of the experiments I described for unclestu. There is an interesting mention relating to this subject in an article on P.W.B. treatments written by Jimmy Hughes in October 1987 issue of Hi Fi Answers. Jimmy describes 'treating' the spindle of the (passive) Linn LP-12 turntable whilst listening to the Compact Disc player and improving the sound - of the Compact Disc player !! And vice versa - 'treating' a (passive) Compact Disc player and improving the sound whilst listening to the LP-12 !! Jimmy goes on to describe how he demonstrated such a technique to Mr. X from one of London's top specialist dealers, to "looks of utter incredulity". Jimmy's article was entitled "New Horizons - Prepare to suspend disbelief" and was written 20 years ago !!
> > > "For instance I have a power amp sitting around with a steel case but not being used. If I degauss it or align it's screws or paste a sticky note on it with a positive thought will that be more likely to affect my perception than doing the same thing with a steel strongbox? " < < <
Now, this is a difficult one to answer without you have some understanding of the concept of 'morphic resonance'.
Let me try. You have to visualise the power amp in a steel box and a steel strongbox in the environment as both being a problem (for us). So, treating both will be effective. Or, put another way. If you 'treat' the amp in the steel box first and gain an improvement, then you can go on to 'treat' the steel strongbox and gain another improvement.
Now comes the part to do with 'morphic resonance' (and morphic messages). In addition, attaching a beneficial note to the amp in the steel box will give a greater improvement - particularly if the amp has a Brand name. Beneficial message should read as follows.
Say the amp is a Pioneer amp. The beneficial note should say THIS PIONEER AMPLIFIER PRODUCES GOOD SOUND > O.K. Naming the Brand name (if there is one) is more effective that not. With the steel strongbox, the beneficial message would just be STEEL STRONGBOX > O.K.
Read Dave and Carol Clarks experiences when they experimented writing similar 'morphic messages' with our Red 'x' Pen. I repeat their observations in my article "Myth, Mirth or Magic?" in Positive Feedback Online
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue30/belt.htm
Dave Clark's experience was to react immediately as soon as the beneficial message Carol had written was changed to one which read "Bad".
In Carol's article about the Red 'x' Pen, she describes using our specially treated pen and writing beneficial messages with great effect.
Also, in my article "Myth, Mirth or Magic ?", in the third paragraph, there is a link to the 60 or more pages of discussion I was involved with in the Stereophile Chat Forum where I described many of our experiences.
> > > "Finally I have an unrelated question: Since you have made it clear that what is affected is the listener, why not treat the listener directly? I'd be tickled to have a pin or tie-bar that would make things sound better. I could even use it at the symphony." < < <
A difficult question to answer again until you have had experience with such things as our 'treated' Foil and heard a beneficial effect on the sound. That is why we describe many 'free' techniques to try to get people to experience, for themselves, just what can be achieved. Once you have had positive experience with such as our Rainbow Foil, things will not appear as 'strange'- then I can suggest that the next time you go to a musical concert, you 'treat' the watch you are wearing with a strip of Rainbow Foil etc. Do you carry credit/store cards in your wallet.? Do you carry anything in your wallet with a bar code ? All these can be 'treated'. Would you buy a programme at the concert ? This can also be 'treated'. We DO have a 'treated' pin - a CCU 'treated' safety pin (for attaching to carpets, curtains and cushions and upholstery) - in fact Dr Richard Graham (who compiles and edits our Newsletter) always attaches one of these 'pins' to his theatre seat when he visits the ballet, the opera or a concert.
Regards,
May Belt.
Thanks May,
The reef knot and paper it will be. I definitely like the idea that they can be reset reliably. It's a lot harder to know if you've managed to remove chemicals.
I'm pleased that there isn't seen to be special relationship between the active player with the "passive" unit being treated. Other than being yet another thing in the room. Seems bit more straightforward.
I am a firm believer in superstition, more precisely the power of suggestion. They are the basis of success of many of our most profitable enterprises. I also think that we are very sensitive to others around us, unconsciously observing and reacting to subtly clues. The biggest difficulty I see in conducting clean tests is removing these factors. I won't be able to do so initially, but it should be fun anyway.
Thanks again for taking the time to reply to my questions.
Regards, Rick
...it appears that the vast majority of May's (and Posy's) antagonists here are subject to that very power -- except with them, it's a negative power.
Nowhere have I seen any hint from them that they too might be susceptible to psychology; no, it's only us!
Whattalaff.
clark
Subjectivists, Objectivists, Objectionists... all human. Our keen eye for correlations and open minds have done much to make us such a successful species. The dark side is that it also makes us putty in the hands of marketeers, politicians and other unscrupulous folks.
Question your beliefs. Question Authority. Keep an open mind. Have a beer.
The secret to life is having the right platitude...
Rick
> > Subjectivists, Objectivists, Objectionists... all human. < <
Yes. Some more than others...
> > Our keen eye for correlations and open minds have done much to make us such a successful species. < <
Our closed-mindedness (by "our", I mean society in general and not myself of course....) has also made us a failure as a species.
> > The dark side is that it also makes us putty in the hands of marketeers, politicians and other unscrupulous folks. < <
No. Only those with minds of putty to begin with are putty in the hands of marketeers, politicians and other unscrupulous folks. If we're still talking about audio, all you need is a good set of ears and an ability to think for yourself. Then you don't need to worry about any of that.
"silence tells me secretly, everything..."
Failed species???? Not yet, probably not ever. But I think we could do a lot better.
Putty-wise, you are right. It was a hackneyed expression but it seemed close enough compared to the lengthy, boring diatribe that would have ensued if I had tried to express what I was thinking. Clearly mind manipulation is a perfected craft and none of us seem totally immune to it. If one were really "closed-minded" it might provide a certain level of protection, rather like a computer firewall.
On another topic, I'm pleased that you don't recall our "rational dialog", me neither. It's a load off. Not to say that we may not have had one...
I'm enjoying "mockworthy".
Rick
> > Failed species???? Not yet, probably not ever. But I think we could do a lot better. < <
What do you call a species that has slaughtered millions of its own in the name of religion, racism, jealousy, envy, misogyny, politics and other closed-minded values? I call that "failed".
> > Putty-wise, you are right. It was a hackneyed expression but it seemed close enough compared to the lengthy, boring diatribe that would have ensued if I had tried to express what I was thinking. Clearly mind manipulation is a perfected craft and none of us seem totally immune to it. < <
It's really not that big a deal. Just be more vigilante than the marketers and you'll be immune to it. Trust me when I say I'm aware of every possible aspect of "the machine" trying to sell me things (products or ideas). It's not a coincidence that I own a VCR with a commercial killer. I'm the guy that can't enjoy himself at an Eric Clapton concert for those damned ads they display on the screen or around the arena.
> > If one were really "closed-minded" it might provide a certain level of protection, rather like a computer firewall. < <
Well, it's a lot like love. You can be extra super careful to avoid it, so you don't get your heart broken. But then you don't get any love, either. In the end, who wins?
> > On another topic, I'm pleased that you don't recall our "rational dialog", me neither. It's a load off. Not to say that we may not have had one... < <
Now that's -two- people that seem to be confirming it. I'm gonna have to give the notion some serious consideration. I'm sorry, what we're we talking about?
> > I'm enjoying "mockworthy". < <
Glad to hear that. I'll put it in a sentence for you, so you can get a feel for context:
"Richard L. Wainwright is a mockworthy person."
"silence tells me secretly, everything..."
Thanks for the kind thoughts!
-RW-
e
That's good advice... but not when selectively applied (except maybe the beer part, might want more than one on occasion!) That just defeats the purpose, eh?
Just remember, Clark's dogmatic pronouncements require the existence of a "Them" as well as an "Us".
Fall a bit wide of the mark (in his assessment, of course), and you can expect to become yet another object of his derision.
Hope you've got a thick skin!
Cheers
Stu
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