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In Reply to: RE: "So, Clark, I ask you." And ye shall be answered. posted by May Belt on July 24, 2007 at 14:52:56
"When I talk about a PASSIVE CD or a PASSIVE cable in the room I mean a CD just passively on the table next to you or some cable just strewn passively anywhere on the floor." Indeed. And I moved erratically from that, to non-passive. Sorry!
"My question to you was for an explanation how destating or demagnetising the passive CD (on the table next to you) or destating or demagnetising a cable (strewn passively on the floor) could affect the sound." OK, I'll bite: How *does* it?
But here's a question for you: Why does this cream from a jar have to be applied to a *CD*? Or to a *cable*? Or for that matter, to *anything*? Wouldn't (by your formulation) its very presence in the room in the jar (perhaps with the top off) be sufficient, Beltwise?
"I appreciate that you are not denying Beltism." Nor am I affirming it! I'm kinda tricky that way.
clark
Follow Ups:
> > > "My question to you was for an explanation how destating or demagnetising the passive CD (on the table next to you) or destating or demagnetising a cable (strewn passively on the floor) could affect the sound."
OK, I'll bite: How *does* it?" < < <
Because it alters the energy pattern (for want of a better word) which you are reacting adversely to within your environment. To enlarge on this. If destating or demagnetising something passive IMPROVES the sound, then prior to destating or demangnetising the effect MUST HAVE been adverse !! On you.
In other words, it is not the audio information which is being affected - it is the way YOU are interpreting what is going on in the environment. You are already being affected (reacting to the environment) before any destating or demagnetising is done and then being affected DIFFERENTLY after destating or demagnetising is carried out. If the sound after is perceived as better, then the effect of destating or demagnetising must have been beneficial !! To you.
> > > "But here's a question for you: Why does this cream from a jar have to be applied to a *CD*? Or to a *cable*? Or for that matter, to *anything*? Wouldn't (by your formulation) its very presence in the room in the jar (perhaps with the top off) be sufficient, Beltwise?
"I appreciate that you are not denying Beltism."
Nor am I affirming it! I'm kinda tricky that way." < < <
************
I have no problem with you being "kinda tricky about Beltism". I would say that that is many people's reaction. Intelligently sceptical but interested.
Let us look at your question re the Cream, the jar, the CD or cable and the room.
The room is the room - meaning that if the room was completely empty then the adverse conditions would be lower than in a normal everyday modern room Fill the room with all the things belonging to the modern world and the room becomes more hostile (for want of a better word) and because of all these things you (the human being) - programmed by evolution to be constantly reading/sensing your environment in order to 'sign it off as safe' - are no longer able to do exactly that - sign it off as 'safe'. So, you stay under tension - which then affects the way you interpret the sound information.
This is the discovery we made over 25 years ago. We had, over many years, accumulated numerous experiences of the sound altering where we could not explain those changes. If you like, look on it as having numerous random pieces of a jigsaw puzzle which do not fit together to make a recognisable picture. Then, gradually, other experiences (other pieces of jigsaw) present themselves until finally they all fit together to make a coherent picture. But, it is not a coherent picture which the world of audio is familiar with.
Some of the random pieces of the jigsaw were different chemicals changing the sound, different colours changing the sound, different shapes changing the sound, etc. What made it all begin to come together was discovering that one chemical we had casually used on a coffee table and which had ruined our sound was being described in an article about plants as a 'stress' chemical produced when a certain plant was under 'stress'. The picture that emerged from the random pieces of the jigsaw coming together was that it was us (human beings) who had been (subconsciously) reacting to that 'stress' chemical and gone under tension ourselves - which in turn had affected the way we were interpreting the sound information we had been listening to. From that discovery we searched and searched for what might be the opposite - a 'reassuring' chemical. Hence the Cream.
We then began to discover some of the 'tricks' (techniques) Nature uses and were then able to incorporate them gradually into our devices.
> > > "Wouldn't the presence of the Cream, just in the room, be sufficient ?" < < <
I wish !! You are asking a lot of a jar of Cream !! Although your reasoning is correct. If the Cream is providing a 'reassuring' energy pattern, allowing us to gradually begin to 'sign off' the environment as 'safe', then the presence of the Cream, in the room, could/might have a beneficial effect - in fact - some people can actually 'feel' the atmosphere begin to 'ease' before they even start to 'treat' anything.
Say, hypothetically, there are 1,000 things in the modern environment which are a problem (causing tension) for us, human beings - i.e not allowing us to relax, not allowing us to 'sign off the environment as safe'. You are asking a lot for the Cream, by just simply being in the room, to provide enough reassurance for us (human beings) to ignore all the 1,000 adverse things. But, having said that, begin to 'treat' with the Cream, the CDs, the equipment, the cabling, the different plastic materials (different mixtures of chemicals) the this, the that and gradually the tension eases, you begin to be more reassured, you begin to interpret much better the musical information which is there, in the room and which has been there all the time.
Let me take it out of audio for a moment and describe it by using a different example. Say a cat has peed in many different areas in a room, over quite a long time. There will be a dreadful, obnoxious 'cat' smell in the room. You ask me "Can the small air freshener you sell 'deal' with that problem.?" I would have to answer that you are asking a lot from a small air freshener to 'deal with' such a large problem - although someone MAY be able to detect a beneficial effect from just one squirt. I would have to recommend that the freshener spray is used in a few of the individual areas where the cat has peed in order to make a recognisable beneficial effect. I know that 'a cat peeing' is not a term used in the audio world but I see the problem in the modern environment (which we are reacting to) as just as adverse.
I also know that the example of the 'cat pee' is not brilliant (but it is the best one I can think of at the moment) because others in the room would be able to detect the adverse effect (the obnoxious smell) as well as you could AND, they would be able to detect when that adverse effect was being 'treated'. Where it IS a good example is that it can give one an idea of how there can be adverse conditions which will not allow you to 'sign off the environment as OK' until those adverse conditions in the environment have been 'treated'.
If you still stay with the hypothetical concept of there being (say) 1,000 adverse things in the environment that does not mean that anyone just 'treating' one thing would definitely hear an improvement in the sound. Someone 'treats' (say) 8 things, they may still not hear any improvement in the sound but, after treating two more things they suddenly say "Oh I heard that, the sound is much better." Yet a different person may have heard an improvement in the sound after 'treating' only 3 things !!! Again, someone may describe hearing an improvement in the sound after 'treating' only one thing - the CD which is playing. Someone else, trying exactly the same thing may hear no improvement but as soon as they then 'treat' (say) the AC power cord of the electric fire suddenly says "Oh I heard that, the sound is much better." Human beings are so diverse and their life experiences are so different and their reactions to different conditions are so different that it is difficult to guarantee what and where and when people will be able to hear improvements in the sound. They have to experiment for themselves.
The whole story is well known and has been repeated often - at least it is well known by people who are seriously interested !!
Regards,
May Belt.
I've been gone for a few days or I might have said more, and earlier.
clark
Good question!
How have people who have heard the effect of the tweak been reporting the effect of brining the whole jar into the room/house?
This has not been addressed, but should have been. I can't recall anyone mentioning the effect of the jar of cream.
That was an excellent point, Mr. Johnsen.
Plus, if there is no noted effect reported by users, and with the jar existing as just another passive device in the room/house, how does it NOT affect the sound of the system?
Again, well done, Mr. Johnsen.
__
Posy: have you noticed an effect from moving the jar itself around the house or in proximity to your system?
> > This has not been addressed, but should have been. I can't recall anyone mentioning the effect of the jar of cream. < <
Actually, the question of the effect of the presence of PWB products in a room has been raised by otheres and addressed. I would know, I've responded to them numerous times. Maybe not right here, not right now, though.
> > Posy: have you noticed an effect from moving the jar itself around the house or in proximity to your system? < <
....But then, I'm not even sure if we're talking about the cream electret here (I assume that's what you refer to by "jar") or some unnamed hand lotion. Yes, certainly I have tested the effects of moving PWB products around the house, and in proximity of the system, and I'm sure that includes the jar of cream electret. AFAIK, all PWB products have an effect by their very presence in the house, particularly in close proximity to an audio system. Some more than others. In fact, I have tested the effects of the presence of these products in recordings that I make. "An effect" however, is not necessarily "the effect". What both of you should understand is the effect had by Beltist products is a combination of (at least) two factors: the product, and the object it's to be applied to. The "magic" starts when you apply the product to an object that has had no such previous application (and yes, it can continue if you apply it in stages over various areas of the product).
Usually, less is more, and this cream is effective at 1 micron thickness. What if you dump a pound of it on top of your cd player? You should not expect better results, but worse results, than if used effectively. It may not make much sense when you are looking at the problem with a conventionalist POV, but that's simply how the phenomenon works (and what it responds to). It doesn't care what you think makes sense to you. Look at what's happening when a jar of CE is in the room. A (relatively) large quantity, inside a jar (I dont think it matters much whether the top is off or on). The glass jar is sitting on an object (say, your desk). The creme is in contact with the jar. It's having a (relatively mild) effect on the jar (due to the quantity), the jar is (presumably) having an effect on the desk. This is all pretty diluted, as far as effects are concerned. In audio, you want to maximize effects. So the cream must be taken out of the jar and applied directly to an object, to create the real effect it was intended to create. And the effect is further maximized, depending on the quantity, the object you treat, and the location on the object.
> > Plus, if there is no noted effect reported by users, and with the jar existing as just another passive device in the room/house, how does it NOT affect the sound of the system? < <
It doesn't NOT affect the sound of the system. So long as it's in your house, your system is affected in some manner.
"silence tells me secretly, everything..."
I'm working on auditioning some OTC creams this week and will report.
Cheers.
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