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In Reply to: RE: "Inner detail... only exist[s] in the listeners head." LOL! posted by gymwear5@hotmail.com on June 28, 2007 at 13:17:34
...whenever their circumscribed ideology is upset.
Also it demonstrates the insincerity and irrelevance of their otherwise constant demands for "proof".
clark
Follow Ups:
Look at this link - grab the book Open you mind.
Heyser knew - GRHS.
Here are three quotes.
"At the present state of sound reproduction technology, the audio engineer shares the professional goal of a magician."
"The effect that modern sound reproduction strives to achieve is the creation of an acceptable illusion in the mind of the listener."
"If we wish to understand how to 'measure' what we 'hear,' then we must deal with subjective perception and the illusion of sound."
Hey gym,
I want to thank you for supporting a statement I've made here previously that many of the objectivists mocked. I stated: "However the typical measurements used today in audio don’t correlate with what we hear." This can be seen in this post... http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=prophead&n=29712&highlight=specifications+thetubeguy1954&r=&session=
Richard Heyser implied this same thing when he said: "If we wish to understand how to 'measure' what we 'hear,' then we must deal with subjective perception and the illusion of sound." However he said it outright when he said: "One of the worst-kept secrets in audio engineering is that what we hear does not always correlate with what we measure."
The sad part is when I said this very same thing my comments were set apon like a pack of wolves by many of the objectivists here. This is further proof that when it comes to objectivists here on PHP it's not what's said that actually matters, but rather who says it and whether it supports the objectivist's POV at that particular time that really counts, huh?
Thetubeguy1954
Hi Tubeguy
I had the good fortune to have been invited to dinner by Don and Carolyn Davis while at a trade show in the 80’s. I got to sit at a table of Audio giants, Dick Heyser, Gene Patronis, Don and Carolyn Davis and others. Dick was a good friend of Don’s and a brilliant man, I said about 3 words other than responding to a few softball things Don pitched me.
I have used his TDS process (TEF machines) ever since and it is my main loudspeaker measuring tool and I am friends with the fellow who maintains the Heyser library. Dick’s insights about time is partly what has driven my time coherent speaker designs.
My point, I know for sure, none of those folks would tolerate and would be offended by the total nonsense which has crept into some audio product marketing.
All of these people were dead serious about what they heard AND measured, there livelihoods and reputations depended on it.
Like Dick said, measurements don’t tell you what you hear but would have likely added, your ears don’t always tell you what something is doing either and that can be very important when your developing something new.
Best,
Tom
Quaint memories of long ago, and name-dropping (whoever those people were LOL). I suppose one must rely on memories when one has not kept up. Ah, sweet memories. LOLGK
Hi GK
Having memories and friends like these is better than not I would bet and is at least a consequence of having been working at this for a living, for a while.
I elaborated on Dick Heyser because I looked up to him and his gear changed my life in acoustics.
I am not surprised you have no idea who those people are (LOL as you say) Gene Patronis is Professor Emeritus in acoustics a Ga tech, Don Davis was Founder of Synaudcon (educational courses in measurements, room acoustics / room design.)
http://gtalumni.org/Publications/techtopics/sum01/firstperson.html
http://digitalcontentproducer.com/mag/avinstall_suggestions_contractors_library/
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/forum/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid=4
Big deal.... some people need heros, and that's OK I guess; however, in your case, judging by your attitude, I'd say they mighta done more harm than good.
GK
“however, in your case, judging by your attitude, I'd say they mighta done more harm than good.”
Mighta, who knows, you can’t judge the effect they had on my loudspeaker designs based on my replies to you can you?, or maybe “you” can hear them telepathically.
"I like my cigar, too, but I take it out sometimes." ~ Groucho MarxGeez, appears you've been doing it quite a while; ever consider branching out into some new project(s)? :-)
GK
Yep, go to a patent web site, type in my name for an inventor search.
I avidly followed Heyser's speaker work (it was easy as much of it was in Audio magazine along with his speaker tests) and believe that his emphasis on the time domain was spot on. Especially as the ears are orders of magnitude more resolving in time than our other senses. He was a serious force for good in the speaker world and did a lot to increase the correlation between hearing and measurements.
I haven't attended one of the Synaudcons but my boss did and I got to read the material... He had nothing but praise for the Davis's grasp of the subject and the thoroughness of the presentation, that's good enough for me.
I love home audio, and have to tolerate PA systems at concerts. Anyone that significantly furthers the state of the art in those areas should be a hero to all of us.
Regards, Rick
Think you must have missed the point of my post, but that's ok.
Oh, I think I got your point, cheap shots are fairly easy to recognize. I also recognize that you may feel that you were responding in kind. I've no idea if the comment about outrageous marketing was especially aimed at you. Even if it was you are surely not alone, nor is the audio field remotely the domain of the most egregious examples. Take the fashion industry, please.
In the long run, it's the folks that figure out what matters and how to measure and control them that advance the state of the art. This is often preceded by people empirically discovering that something has a desirable effect and taking advantage of it even though they may not understand the underlying causes. And so we progress along in a bumpy fashion.
I suppose that there's a third group, the charlatans, who's goal is to gull folks. Ultimately they are of no consequence. I hold the empiricists and engineers in high regard and hope to avoid being victimized by the charlatans.
So my hat is off to folks like Heyser who advance the state of the art while freely admitting that they don't have all the answers. It's also off to folks who discover that unlikely things, like interconnects, can have far more impact than one would ever suppose and are persistent enough that eventually a lot of us benefit from their discovery even though a through explanation is not yet in hand.
Regards, Rick
Why would you jump to the conclusion that I am not an engineer and not empirical, but must be a charlatan? Good luck with your heros and your cherished view of what is state of the art. You have apparently been victimized by the same conceit that I was accusing tomservo of. Otherwise, thanks for the lecture...~ GK
Geoff, if you re-read my post you will find no intimation whatsoever that I think that you are a charlatan.
Frankly I know little about your products and have not tried any so I've formed no opinion of them. I mostly am aware of them due to the frequent postings regarding them on this forum. I have looked at your website before and just double checked to verify that you have a money-back guarantee. By all reports you are an ethical businessman, and I would not hesitate to order from you.
When I wrote that post I was going to guess that you were an empiricist but I decided not to because I really didn't know and thought it might cause offense. Well, that backfired didn't it? This morning I read the material on your site concerning magic pebbles. It offers an explanation but no supporting data and the product itself is unspecified so I'm thinking empirical, an engineered product would usually have numbers attached even if they weren't germane.
You are welcome for the lecture, don't forget the final is next week...
Regards, Rick
In practice, objectivists like me tend to get frustrated with subjectivist when we should be frustrated with audio in general. It's the "imagining" process we can't get a handle on because it can't be measured. We get frustrated when a SET owner with oodles of distortion glows on about the wonderful presentation coming from his system when we know the signal is distorted and the same guy has umteen megabuck wrapped up in cables that we know don't change the signal at all and yet what we should be happy with the that he enjoys the sound of his system. So there's a new telportation tweek now that someone will purchase and it makes them happy with a new found listening experience. All I hope is that they didn't spend their last 40 clams on the experience and are keeping up with child support and any real obligations they have to society.
You're an objectivist, right? You don't go around making unwarranted assertions, right? So, about those cables: You got any measurements of our man's?
I'm just askin', because all the time when I only say something *sounds good* I'm asked for measurements etc, and here we have a far bolder claim, that Brand X cables "don't change the signal at all."
Fair's fair.
I await your evidence -- but not in high expectation.
clark
> > In practice, objectivists like me tend to get frustrated with subjectivist when we should be frustrated with audio in general. It's the "imagining" process we can't get a handle on because it can't be measured. We get frustrated when a SET owner with oodles of distortion glows on about the wonderful presentation coming from his system when we know the signal is distorted and the same guy has umteen megabuck wrapped up in cables that we know don't change the signal at all and yet what we should be happy with the that he enjoys the sound of his system. < <
You can find distortion in any amp, if you look hard enough. Your comment shows a lack of understanding of the nature of distortion and an ignorance of all other real factors that contribute to the specific sound that SET lovers fall in love with (and no, adding "euphonic" or "romantic" doesn't show any better understanding of what tube amps get right in the spectrum of music reproduction). Then you go on to say you "know" advanced cable technology provides no better level of sound reproduction than cheap wire, which is laughable when you don't "know" any such thing, and you're basing your opinions entirely on prejudices coming off of erroneous or incomplete data, or worse, DBTs. This is NOT the way to understand audio, my friend, and me and my twenty plus years of practical experience in audio assures you that you are -not- in a position of intellectual superiority because you think you're in posession of uncommon technical knowledge that ignorant subs don't know, don't understand or don't want to acknowledge. You are actually the ignorant audio guy you think the non-objectivist, non-measurers are, despite what your textbooks, your measuring instruments, and your "rational dbt data" tells you. As we speak, your audio system and your body/mind are suffering horribly for your misguided (but somewhat understandable) beliefs.
Funny how subs don't get all frustrated because some crazy objectivist runs around with an SPL meter, and puts 2 cent wire on the back of $2,000 dollar speakers. We just laugh and shake our heads at the foolish pseudo-objectivists, who gave up good sound for bad ideology..... We realize they usually take a few decades to catch up and realize they were wrong all that time, but given the fact that the sound of something as well established as cables are still controversial among the die-hard perpetual naysayers, sometimes decades is not long enough.
> > So there's a new telportation tweek now that someone will purchase and it makes them happy with a new found listening experience. All I hope is that they didn't spend their last 40 clams on the experience and are keeping up with child support and any real obligations they have to society. < <
Oh darn. I really wish you haddana said that. Because I just came back from the bank to find out I had $60 left to my name, and the repo man made off with my car, which apart from my stereo, was the only thing of value I have. I got a year-old baby that's driving me crazy with the screaming, and the bawling, all night and day. I don't know -what- he wants, food I guess, since I haven't been able to keep up with the regular feeding schedule, on account of my cash crisis. But $60 happens to be the cost of MD's new Teleportation Tweak, and I'm just -dying- to try this thing out. Especially since there are so many people so eager to piss all over it, within seconds of its announcement. (As you may have guessed, the more denigrated and mysterious an audio product is, the more appealing it is to me). I realize that if I spend the rest of my available funds on the kid, I could probably get him to stop his incessant whining for a time. But it occurred to me that it would be cheaper to just find some cotton or paper around the house, and stuff it into my ears. Then I could afford the Teleportation Tweak. So I have to admit, it's a tough decision, but in all consideration, not -that- tough. It's like my great grandfather used to say, "audio is everything". Anyone have MD's number?
"silence tells me secretly, everything..."
s
Earlier I revealed the truth: They're more like a pack of hyenas.
clark
d
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